"PILLAR SPOKES"

On 14 Oct, 01:59, Jobst Brandt wrote:
Jay Drew wrote:
I just stumbled onto a web site for PILLAR spokes. *I wondered
what they cost, & where they might be found. *What I found was
absolutely nothing.
Do they exist outside of this particular web site? *Has any one
@ RBT heard of them? *Has anyone used them? *They, PILLAR,
seemed to list Jenson USA as a dealer. **When I searched
Jenson, nothing with the name "PILLAR" was found. **Are they
just vapor ware?
Seems to be a spoke manufacturer in Taiwan ROC. **Never heard of
them before. **Which has no real meaning, I just don't know
them. *We have NJS certified bright stainless Hoshi Japanese
spokes with DT Swiss hard brass nipples $30 per wheel all
lengths.
How about:

*http://www.pillarspoke.com/default.asp

Not a convincing web page!
Are the abrupt butts at the medial end of the J bend on the triple
butted spokes a problem?

*http://www.pillarspoke.com/product.a...3&thisValue=2&...

That was left over from the days when only the ends of spokes were
thick in an effort to make lighter wheels. *Therefore there was no
long transition as we see on DT spokes today. *I have not seen one
of those fail at the transition that has a reasonable radius from
thin-to-thick.
Jobst, I didn't quite follow you on this. *I think you are saying
that a shorter transition are not reasonable? *But I'm not quite
sure.

They don't fail but are harder to make. *The effort was directed at a
non issue of how long the thick ends should be. *This design was
common about 50 years ago. *As you see, DT doesn't do that and their
spokes are among the best.

The long butt may make double tying difficult on some patterns. Jobst
is ignorant of tying and soldering spokes because it does not fit his
hypotheses. Stainless spokes can never be the best if it is physical
performance which is judged. DT only offer stainless spokes,
therefore they cannot be among the best. On the well respected 36 x4
pattern on a smalll flange, the butt of a DT spoke interferes with the
tying and kinking required for the optimal spoke line. DT's choice of
butt length is faulty for it prevents their choice when building the
most substantial wheel. Their straight 15gauge are fine for this.

On 10/14/2010 7:49 PM, thirty-six aka Trevor Jeffrey wrote:
On 14 Oct, 01:59, Jobst wrote:
Jay Drew wrote:
I just stumbled onto a web site for PILLAR spokes. I wondered
what they cost,& where they might be found. What I found was
absolutely nothing.
Do they exist outside of this particular web site? Has any one
@ RBT heard of them? Has anyone used them? They, PILLAR,
seemed to list Jenson USA as a dealer. When I searched
Jenson, nothing with the name "PILLAR" was found. Are they
just vapor ware?
Seems to be a spoke manufacturer in Taiwan ROC. Never heard of
them before. Which has no real meaning, I just don't know
them. We have NJS certified bright stainless Hoshi Japanese
spokes with DT Swiss hard brass nipples $30 per wheel all
lengths.
How about:

http://www.pillarspoke.com/default.asp

Not a convincing web page!
Are the abrupt butts at the medial end of the J bend on the triple
butted spokes a problem?

http://www.pillarspoke.com/product.a...3&thisValue=2&...

That was left over from the days when only the ends of spokes were
thick in an effort to make lighter wheels. Therefore there was no
long transition as we see on DT spokes today. I have not seen one
of those fail at the transition that has a reasonable radius from
thin-to-thick.
Jobst, I didn't quite follow you on this. I think you are saying
that a shorter transition are not reasonable? But I'm not quite
sure.

They don't fail but are harder to make. The effort was directed at a
non issue of how long the thick ends should be. This design was
common about 50 years ago. As you see, DT doesn't do that and their
spokes are among the best.

The long butt may make double tying difficult on some patterns. Jobst
is ignorant of tying and soldering spokes because it does not fit his
hypotheses. Stainless spokes can never be the best if it is physical
performance which is judged. DT only offer stainless spokes,
therefore they cannot be among the best. On the well respected 36 x4
pattern on a smalll flange, the butt of a DT spoke interferes with the
tying and kinking required for the optimal spoke line. DT's choice of
butt length is faulty for it prevents their choice when building the
most substantial wheel. Their straight 15gauge are fine for this.

I find the differences between the way bicycle wheels behave in our
universe and Trevor's to be fascinating.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

On Oct 14, 5:49*pm, thirty-six wrote:
On 14 Oct, 01:59, Jobst Brandt wrote:





Jay Drew wrote:
I just stumbled onto a web site for PILLAR spokes. *I wondered
what they cost, & where they might be found. *What I found was
absolutely nothing.
Do they exist outside of this particular web site? *Has any one
@ RBT heard of them? *Has anyone used them? *They, PILLAR,
seemed to list Jenson USA as a dealer. **When I searched
Jenson, nothing with the name "PILLAR" was found. **Are they
just vapor ware?
Seems to be a spoke manufacturer in Taiwan ROC. **Never heard of
them before. **Which has no real meaning, I just don't know
them. *We have NJS certified bright stainless Hoshi Japanese
spokes with DT Swiss hard brass nipples $30 per wheel all
lengths.
How about:

*http://www.pillarspoke.com/default.asp

Not a convincing web page!
Are the abrupt butts at the medial end of the J bend on the triple
butted spokes a problem?

*http://www.pillarspoke.com/product.a...3&thisValue=2&...

That was left over from the days when only the ends of spokes were
thick in an effort to make lighter wheels. *Therefore there was no
long transition as we see on DT spokes today. *I have not seen one
of those fail at the transition that has a reasonable radius from
thin-to-thick.
Jobst, I didn't quite follow you on this. *I think you are saying
that a shorter transition are not reasonable? *But I'm not quite
sure.

They don't fail but are harder to make. *The effort was directed at a
non issue of how long the thick ends should be. *This design was
common about 50 years ago. *As you see, DT doesn't do that and their
spokes are among the best.

The long butt may make double tying difficult on some patterns. *Jobst
is ignorant of tying and soldering spokes because it does not fit his
hypotheses. * Stainless spokes can never be the best if it is physical
performance which is judged. *DT only offer stainless spokes,
therefore they cannot be among the best. *On the well respected 36 x4
pattern on a smalll flange, the butt of a DT spoke interferes with the
tying and kinking required for the optimal spoke line. *DT's choice of
butt length is faulty for it prevents their choice when building the
most substantial wheel. *Their straight 15gauge are fine for this.- Hide quoted

I'm almost afraid to ask . . . what is "double tying?" I used to tie
and solder a lot (until I gave it up for felting with clothes dryer
lint and recycling Scotch tape), and I never had issues with the
butts. They were like on another planet in terms of where I was doing
my work. -- Jay Beattie.

On 15 Oct, 02:15, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Oct 14, 5:49*pm, thirty-six wrote:



On 14 Oct, 01:59, Jobst Brandt wrote:

Jay Drew wrote:
I just stumbled onto a web site for PILLAR spokes. *I wondered
what they cost, & where they might be found. *What I found was
absolutely nothing.
Do they exist outside of this particular web site? *Has any one
@ RBT heard of them? *Has anyone used them? *They, PILLAR,
seemed to list Jenson USA as a dealer. **When I searched
Jenson, nothing with the name "PILLAR" was found. **Are they
just vapor ware?
Seems to be a spoke manufacturer in Taiwan ROC. **Never heard of
them before. **Which has no real meaning, I just don't know
them. *We have NJS certified bright stainless Hoshi Japanese
spokes with DT Swiss hard brass nipples $30 per wheel all
lengths.
How about:

*http://www.pillarspoke.com/default.asp

Not a convincing web page!
Are the abrupt butts at the medial end of the J bend on the triple
butted spokes a problem?

*http://www.pillarspoke.com/product.a...3&thisValue=2&...

That was left over from the days when only the ends of spokes were
thick in an effort to make lighter wheels. *Therefore there was no
long transition as we see on DT spokes today. *I have not seen one
of those fail at the transition that has a reasonable radius from
thin-to-thick.
Jobst, I didn't quite follow you on this. *I think you are saying
that a shorter transition are not reasonable? *But I'm not quite
sure.

They don't fail but are harder to make. *The effort was directed at a
non issue of how long the thick ends should be. *This design was
common about 50 years ago. *As you see, DT doesn't do that and their
spokes are among the best.

The long butt may make double tying difficult on some patterns. *Jobst
is ignorant of tying and soldering spokes because it does not fit his
hypotheses. * Stainless spokes can never be the best if it is physical
performance which is judged. *DT only offer stainless spokes,
therefore they cannot be among the best. *On the well respected 36 x4
pattern on a smalll flange, the butt of a DT spoke interferes with the
tying and kinking required for the optimal spoke line. *DT's choice of
butt length is faulty for it prevents their choice when building the
most substantial wheel. *Their straight 15gauge are fine for this.- Hide quoted

I'm almost afraid to ask . . . what is "double tying?"

Tying at two crossing points of the spokes, nearest the rim and second
closest. The closer crossing to the hub pulls the spokes together
(the spokes are NOT woven) preventing failure of the spoke elbow of
the inner spoke and creating a wheel which may be constructed softer
with great lateral stability. The second outer binding is probably of
comparitively little importance.


*I used to tie
and solder a lot (until I gave it up for felting with clothes dryer
lint and recycling Scotch tape), and I never had issues with the
butts. *They were like on another planet in terms of where I was doing
my work. -- Jay Beattie.

On 15 Oct, 02:15, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Oct 14, 5:49 pm, thirty-six wrote:



On 14 Oct, 01:59, Jobst Brandt wrote:
Jay Drew wrote:
I just stumbled onto a web site for PILLAR spokes. I wondered
what they cost, & where they might be found. What I found was
absolutely nothing.
Do they exist outside of this particular web site? Has any one
@ RBT heard of them? Has anyone used them? They, PILLAR,
seemed to list Jenson USA as a dealer. When I searched
Jenson, nothing with the name "PILLAR" was found. Are they
just vapor ware?
Seems to be a spoke manufacturer in Taiwan ROC. Never heard of
them before. Which has no real meaning, I just don't know
them. We have NJS certified bright stainless Hoshi Japanese
spokes with DT Swiss hard brass nipples $30 per wheel all
lengths.
How about:
http://www.pillarspoke.com/default.asp
Not a convincing web page!
Are the abrupt butts at the medial end of the J bend on the triple
butted spokes a problem?
http://www.pillarspoke.com/product.a...3&thisValue=2&...
That was left over from the days when only the ends of spokes were
thick in an effort to make lighter wheels. Therefore there was no
long transition as we see on DT spokes today. I have not seen one
of those fail at the transition that has a reasonable radius from
thin-to-thick.
Jobst, I didn't quite follow you on this. I think you are saying
that a shorter transition are not reasonable? But I'm not quite
sure.
They don't fail but are harder to make. The effort was directed at a
non issue of how long the thick ends should be. This design was
common about 50 years ago. As you see, DT doesn't do that and their
spokes are among the best.
The long butt may make double tying difficult on some patterns. Jobst
is ignorant of tying and soldering spokes because it does not fit his
hypotheses. Stainless spokes can never be the best if it is physical
performance which is judged. DT only offer stainless spokes,
therefore they cannot be among the best. On the well respected 36 x4
pattern on a smalll flange, the butt of a DT spoke interferes with the
tying and kinking required for the optimal spoke line. DT's choice of
butt length is faulty for it prevents their choice when building the
most substantial wheel. Their straight 15gauge are fine for this.- Hide quoted
I'm almost afraid to ask . . . what is "double tying?"
I used to tie
and solder a lot (until I gave it up for felting with clothes dryer
lint and recycling Scotch tape), and I never had issues with the
butts. They were like on another planet in terms of where I was doing
my work. -- Jay Beattie.

thirty-six wrote:
Tying at two crossing points of the spokes, nearest the
rim and second
closest. The closer crossing to the hub pulls the spokes
together
(the spokes are NOT woven) preventing failure of the
spoke elbow of
the inner spoke and creating a wheel which may be
constructed softer
with great lateral stability. The second outer binding
is probably of
comparitively little importance.




Finished with beeswax, shellac or hand tie-dyed ribbons?

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Oct 6, 3:59*pm, Jobst Brandt wrote:
Andrew Muzi wrote:
I just stumbled onto a web site for PILLAR spokes. I wondered what
they cost, & where they might be found. What I found was absolutely
nothing.
Do they exist outside of this particular web site? *Has any one @
RBT heard of them? *Has anyone used them?
They, PILLAR, seemed to list Jenson USA as a dealer. *When I
searched Jenson, nothing with the name "PILLAR" was found. *Are
they just vapor ware?
Seems to be a spoke manufacturer in Taiwan ROC. *Never heard of them
before. *Which has no real meaning, I just don't know them.
We have NJS certified bright stainless Hoshi Japanese spokes with DT
Swiss hard brass nipples $30 per wheel all lengths.

How about:

*http://www.pillarspoke.com/default.asp

Not a convincing web page!


Awesome. I just love websites that go "beep" and
"doot doot".

The alchemy link lists them at a staggering $6.00
per spoke. I guess, if it'll really make my 590 40-
spoke rear wheel faster, it's probably worth at least
that . . .

On Oct 14, 10:35*pm, AMuzi wrote:
On 15 Oct, 02:15, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Oct 14, 5:49 pm, thirty-six wrote:

On 14 Oct, 01:59, Jobst Brandt wrote:
Jay Drew wrote:
I just stumbled onto a web site for PILLAR spokes. *I wondered
what they cost, & where they might be found. *What I found was
absolutely nothing.
Do they exist outside of this particular web site? *Has any one
@ RBT heard of them? *Has anyone used them? *They, PILLAR,
seemed to list Jenson USA as a dealer. * When I searched
Jenson, nothing with the name "PILLAR" was found. * Are they
just vapor ware?
Seems to be a spoke manufacturer in Taiwan ROC. * Never heard of
them before. * Which has no real meaning, I just don't know
them. *We have NJS certified bright stainless Hoshi Japanese
spokes with DT Swiss hard brass nipples $30 per wheel all
lengths.
How about:
*http://www.pillarspoke.com/default.asp
Not a convincing web page!
Are the abrupt butts at the medial end of the J bend on the triple
butted spokes a problem?
*http://www.pillarspoke.com/product.a...3&thisValue=2&...
That was left over from the days when only the ends of spokes were
thick in an effort to make lighter wheels. *Therefore there was no
long transition as we see on DT spokes today. *I have not seen one
of those fail at the transition that has a reasonable radius from
thin-to-thick.
Jobst, I didn't quite follow you on this. *I think you are saying
that a shorter transition are not reasonable? *But I'm not quite
sure.
They don't fail but are harder to make. *The effort was directed at a
non issue of how long the thick ends should be. *This design was
common about 50 years ago. *As you see, DT doesn't do that and their
spokes are among the best.
The long butt may make double tying difficult on some patterns. *Jobst
is ignorant of tying and soldering spokes because it does not fit his
hypotheses. * Stainless spokes can never be the best if it is physical
performance which is judged. *DT only offer stainless spokes,
therefore they cannot be among the best. *On the well respected 36 x4
pattern on a smalll flange, the butt of a DT spoke interferes with the
tying and kinking required for the optimal spoke line. *DT's choice of
butt length is faulty for it prevents their choice when building the
most substantial wheel. *Their straight 15gauge are fine for this.- Hide quoted
I'm almost afraid to ask . . . what is "double tying?"
*I used to tie
and solder a lot (until I gave it up for felting with clothes dryer
lint and recycling Scotch tape), and I never had issues with the
butts. *They were like on another planet in terms of where I was doing
my work. -- Jay Beattie.
thirty-six wrote:

* Tying at two crossing points of the spokes, nearest the
rim and second
* closest. *The closer crossing to the hub pulls the spokes
together
* (the spokes are NOT woven) preventing failure of the
spoke elbow of
* the inner spoke and creating a wheel which may be
constructed softer
* with great lateral stability. *The second outer binding
is probably of
* comparitively little importance.
*
*

Finished with beeswax, shellac or hand tie-dyed ribbons?


Sarcasm isn't nice. You know, I've broken almost three
spokes in 20 years over a dozen or so wheels (or more).
The extra two or three hours per wheel of double tying &
soldering could have saved me at least 6 or 7 minutes
_PER BROKEN SPOKE_, and that ain't chump change.

On 15 Oct, 22:25, Norman wrote:
On Oct 14, 10:35*pm, AMuzi wrote:



On 15 Oct, 02:15, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Oct 14, 5:49 pm, thirty-six wrote:

On 14 Oct, 01:59, Jobst Brandt wrote:
Jay Drew wrote:
I just stumbled onto a web site for PILLAR spokes. *I wondered
what they cost, & where they might be found. *What I found was
absolutely nothing.
Do they exist outside of this particular web site? *Has any one
@ RBT heard of them? *Has anyone used them? *They, PILLAR,
seemed to list Jenson USA as a dealer. * When I searched
Jenson, nothing with the name "PILLAR" was found. * Are they
just vapor ware?
Seems to be a spoke manufacturer in Taiwan ROC. * Never heard of
them before. * Which has no real meaning, I just don't know
them. *We have NJS certified bright stainless Hoshi Japanese
spokes with DT Swiss hard brass nipples $30 per wheel all
lengths.
How about:
*http://www.pillarspoke.com/default.asp
Not a convincing web page!
Are the abrupt butts at the medial end of the J bend on the triple
butted spokes a problem?
*http://www.pillarspoke.com/product.a...3&thisValue=2&...
That was left over from the days when only the ends of spokes were
thick in an effort to make lighter wheels. *Therefore there was no
long transition as we see on DT spokes today. *I have not seen one
of those fail at the transition that has a reasonable radius from
thin-to-thick.
Jobst, I didn't quite follow you on this. *I think you are saying
that a shorter transition are not reasonable? *But I'm not quite
sure.
They don't fail but are harder to make. *The effort was directed at a
non issue of how long the thick ends should be. *This design was
common about 50 years ago. *As you see, DT doesn't do that and their
spokes are among the best.
The long butt may make double tying difficult on some patterns. *Jobst
is ignorant of tying and soldering spokes because it does not fit his
hypotheses. * Stainless spokes can never be the best if it is physical
performance which is judged. *DT only offer stainless spokes,
therefore they cannot be among the best. *On the well respected 36 x4
pattern on a smalll flange, the butt of a DT spoke interferes with the
tying and kinking required for the optimal spoke line. *DT's choice of
butt length is faulty for it prevents their choice when building the
most substantial wheel. *Their straight 15gauge are fine for this..- Hide quoted
I'm almost afraid to ask . . . what is "double tying?"
*I used to tie
and solder a lot (until I gave it up for felting with clothes dryer
lint and recycling Scotch tape), and I never had issues with the
butts. *They were like on another planet in terms of where I was doing
my work. -- Jay Beattie.
thirty-six wrote:

* Tying at two crossing points of the spokes, nearest the
rim and second
* closest. *The closer crossing to the hub pulls the spokes
together
* (the spokes are NOT woven) preventing failure of the
spoke elbow of
* the inner spoke and creating a wheel which may be
constructed softer
* with great lateral stability. *The second outer binding
is probably of
* comparitively little importance.
*
*

Finished with beeswax, shellac or hand tie-dyed ribbons?

Sarcasm isn't nice. *You know, I've broken almost three
spokes in 20 years over a dozen or so wheels (or more).
The extra two or three hours per wheel of double tying &
soldering could have saved me at least 6 or 7 minutes
_PER BROKEN SPOKE_, and that ain't chump change.

It's not about the failure of spokes, tying and soldering builds a
phenomonally different wheel when the hardness of the wheel is
adjusted for the rider. It takes less than an hour to double tie and
solder. The wheel builds true without the rim wandering however
light, which saves time in that there is next to NO truing during the
build. The softer wheel means that corners can be taken faster with
confidence and the rider does not suffer from road shock. Over longer
distances this means quicker speeds so saving time. It means the
rider can ride similarly long distance the next day. It means he has
less stress to recover from and so performs better on subsequent
days.

On 15 Oct, 03:35, AMuzi wrote:
On 15 Oct, 02:15, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Oct 14, 5:49 pm, thirty-six wrote:

On 14 Oct, 01:59, Jobst Brandt wrote:
Jay Drew wrote:
I just stumbled onto a web site for PILLAR spokes. *I wondered
what they cost, & where they might be found. *What I found was
absolutely nothing.
Do they exist outside of this particular web site? *Has any one
@ RBT heard of them? *Has anyone used them? *They, PILLAR,
seemed to list Jenson USA as a dealer. * When I searched
Jenson, nothing with the name "PILLAR" was found. * Are they
just vapor ware?
Seems to be a spoke manufacturer in Taiwan ROC. * Never heard of
them before. * Which has no real meaning, I just don't know
them. *We have NJS certified bright stainless Hoshi Japanese
spokes with DT Swiss hard brass nipples $30 per wheel all
lengths.
How about:
*http://www.pillarspoke.com/default.asp
Not a convincing web page!
Are the abrupt butts at the medial end of the J bend on the triple
butted spokes a problem?
*http://www.pillarspoke.com/product.a...3&thisValue=2&...
That was left over from the days when only the ends of spokes were
thick in an effort to make lighter wheels. *Therefore there was no
long transition as we see on DT spokes today. *I have not seen one
of those fail at the transition that has a reasonable radius from
thin-to-thick.
Jobst, I didn't quite follow you on this. *I think you are saying
that a shorter transition are not reasonable? *But I'm not quite
sure.
They don't fail but are harder to make. *The effort was directed at a
non issue of how long the thick ends should be. *This design was
common about 50 years ago. *As you see, DT doesn't do that and their
spokes are among the best.
The long butt may make double tying difficult on some patterns. *Jobst
is ignorant of tying and soldering spokes because it does not fit his
hypotheses. * Stainless spokes can never be the best if it is physical
performance which is judged. *DT only offer stainless spokes,
therefore they cannot be among the best. *On the well respected 36 x4
pattern on a smalll flange, the butt of a DT spoke interferes with the
tying and kinking required for the optimal spoke line. *DT's choice of
butt length is faulty for it prevents their choice when building the
most substantial wheel. *Their straight 15gauge are fine for this.- Hide quoted
I'm almost afraid to ask . . . what is "double tying?"
*I used to tie
and solder a lot (until I gave it up for felting with clothes dryer
lint and recycling Scotch tape), and I never had issues with the
butts. *They were like on another planet in terms of where I was doing
my work. -- Jay Beattie.
thirty-six wrote:

* Tying at two crossing points of the spokes, nearest the
rim and second
* closest. *The closer crossing to the hub pulls the spokes
together
* (the spokes are NOT woven) preventing failure of the
spoke elbow of
* the inner spoke and creating a wheel which may be
constructed softer
* with great lateral stability. *The second outer binding
is probably of
* comparitively little importance.
*
*

Finished with beeswax, shellac or hand tie-dyed ribbons?


Beeswax and shellac are useful if there is an immediate requirement
for a quality wheel, either can be used to prevent loose nipples.
Both can also be applied after assembly.

On 16 Oct, 00:13, Jobst Brandt wrote:
Trevor Jeffrey wrote:
I just stumbled onto a web site for PILLAR spokes. *I
wondered what they cost, & where they might be found.
What I found was absolutely nothing.
Do they exist outside of this particular web site? *Has
any one @ RBT heard of them? *Has anyone used them?
They (PILLAR) seemed to list Jenson USA as a dealer. *
When I searched Jenson, nothing with the name "PILLAR"
was found. * Are they just vapor ware?
Seems to be a spoke manufacturer in Taiwan ROC. * Never
heard of them before. * Which has no real meaning, I just
don't know them. *We have NJS certified bright stainless
Hoshi Japanese spokes with DT Swiss hard brass nipples
$30 per wheel all lengths.
How about:

*http://www.pillarspoke.com/default.asp

Not a convincing web page!
Are the abrupt butts at the medial end of the J bend on the
triple butted spokes a problem?

*http://www.pillarspoke.com/product.a...3&thisValue=2&...



That was left over from the days when only the ends of
spokes were thick in an effort to make lighter wheels. *
Therefore there was no long transition as we see on DT
spokes today. *I have not seen one of those fail at the
transition that has a reasonable radius from thin-to-thick.
Jobst, I didn't quite follow you on this. *I think you are
saying that a shorter transition are not reasonable? *But I'm
not quite sure.
They don't fail but are harder to make. *The effort was
directed at a non issue of how long the thick ends should
be. *This design was common about 50 years ago. *As you see,
DT doesn't do that and their spokes are among the best.
The long butt may make double tying difficult on some
patterns. *Jobst is ignorant of tying and soldering spokes
because it does not fit his hypotheses. * Stainless spokes can
never be the best if it is physical performance which is
judged. *DT only offer stainless spokes, therefore they cannot
be among the best. *On the well respected 36 x4 pattern on a
small flange, the butt of a DT spoke interferes with the tying
and kinking required for the optimal spoke line. *DT's choice
of butt length is faulty for it prevents their choice when
building the most substantial wheel. *Their straight 15gauge
are fine for this.- Hide quoted
I'm almost afraid to ask... what is "double tying?" **I used to
tie and solder a lot (until I gave it up for felting with
clothes dryer lint and recycling Scotch tape), and I never had
issues with the butts. *They were like on another planet in
terms of where I was doing my work.
Tying at two crossing points of the spokes, nearest the rim and
second closest. *The closer crossing to the hub pulls the spokes
together (the spokes are NOT woven) preventing failure of the
spoke elbow of the inner spoke and creating a wheel which may be
constructed softer with great lateral stability. *The second
outer binding is probably of comparitively little importance.
Finished with beeswax, shellac or hand tie-dyed ribbons?
Sarcasm isn't nice. *You know, I've broken almost three spokes in
20 years over a dozen or so wheels (or more). *The extra two or
three hours per wheel of double tying & soldering could have saved
me at least 6 or 7 minutes _PER BROKEN SPOKE_, and that ain't chump
change.
It's not about the failure of spokes, tying and soldering builds a
phenomonally different wheel when the hardness of the wheel is
adjusted for the rider. *It takes less than an hour to double tie
and solder. *The wheel builds true without the rim wandering however
light, which saves time in that there is next to NO truing during
the build. *The softer wheel means that corners can be taken faster
with confidence and the rider does not suffer from road shock. *Over
longer distances this means quicker speeds so saving time. *It means
the rider can ride similarly long distance the next day. *It means
he has less stress to recover from and so performs better on
subsequent days.

I take it you never looked at

Palmer's original design for the bicycle wheel which predates your
beloved cheap-n-nasty production design.

http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=r9ZuAAAAEBAJ

The relatively failure prone design to your liking post-dates
Palmer's true tangent wheel. It's been 135 years now, you must get
up to date and get into the 19th Century. This production design,
without tying, is only truly successful in 36x3 pattern, and even in
that pattern it is substandard to oa well constructed tied and
soldered wheel.

the measured results shown in "the
Bicycle Wheel" where all these items of folklore are measured and

Bull****, the tied-and solderecd wheel you tested did not resemble
Palmer's original wheel, it was a woven-spoked production pattern
which simply had the outer crossing bound. This, without any other
treatment will probably preserve the bowed spokes so beloved of your
favourite design. Some builders, using carbon steel spokes (as
opposed to stainless) WILL likely remove the bows upon heating the
crossing point with a flame, so magically creating a more stable
wheel. It doesn't happen with stainless unless the temperature is
taken far beyond that required for tinmman's solder. It is best NOT
to weave the spoke at all, but to double tie-and-solder. I've no
doubt that you will NEVER test a wheel like the original designer
intended.


defrocked. *

You should be.

If there were anything to tying and soldering spokes
crossings together someone should have explained where the additional
stress went and that radial spoking does not work in that regime.

So why remove the tying and so.lldering process from Palmer's design
then?

However, both of these spoking patterns and additions are myth and
lore, the stuff of true believers. *Religion: Something for which

http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=r9ZuAAAAEBAJ
FACT

there is no proof, but can be can be defended by those with sufficient
faith.

You are calling on them again? You really should explain to them WHY
you prefer to go against the steadfast design of PALMER.