How Do These Airborne Specs Look?

di wrote:


Actually I wasn't even thinking about performance and hybrid in the same
chain of thought,

I know, I "caught" folks "off-guard" by not stating my premises.

most of the people I know who start with a hybrid and stay
with cycling will eventually go to either a good quality road bike or
mountain bike and drop the hybrid.

I figured on the hybrid as the all-purpose bike. Later on I'd get
different bikes for specific roles.

BY the way you can buy a very good
recumbent for $1200.

Not a nineteen-pounder!

Gooserider wrote:


Ah, the wonders of free trade. How many American Ti fabricators could be
employed if those bikes were made here?

I imagine the American companies do high-end Ti work -- M1 Abrams Main
Battle Tanks, for example.

Can I find American made cheap plastic junk? No. Can I find bicycles, cars,
motorcycles, appliances, and electronics not made in China. Sure, and I
have.

Careful the components are out-sourced and actually made in China! The
devil's in the details.

If the sticker says "Made in Taiwan", then that's the deal. They're all made
at the same factories, anyway.

Damn, I'm surprised you trust a "Made in Taiwan" sticker over
Airborne's "Made in USA" sticker.

Gooserider wrote:


Or, the Chinese will continue to pour massive amounts of money into their
military, strengthening them for the eventual takeover of Taiwan. That is
the more likely scenario.

But don't you think it funny that the businessmen of Taiwan don't care
about this? They still continue investing and whatnot on the mainland.
Doesn't that strike you as funny, that while successive US
Administrations wonder what to do about China, the people of Taiwan
keep opening up more and more links, economic and otherwise?

There are alternatives to buying Chinese bicycles. Saudi oil, not so much.
At least not now. That's why I drive a car which gets excellent mileage, and
commute by bicycle 4 days/week. The cartels aren't getting rich off me.

In the abstract, your reasoning is sound. I only wonder about whether
it actually carries the weight you seem to ascribe to it.
Psychologically you yourself feel better about your choices, but as
I've no particular "China animus," so to speak, I'd want to know that
my actions have actual political consequences, as that'd be the only
reason I'd forgo a financial bargain.

And in that regard, as Three Fire noted, it doesn't seem like
sanctioning Chinese products will improve the average Chinese worker's
life. The dictatorship is still there -- only that the proverbial
"little people" suffer more.

But you can do the right thing.

Yeah, but what makes it the "right" thing? It's context, AFAIK.
Simply doing something in the abstract doesn't always translate well --
the ol' lying (a sin to some) to Nazis about Jews in your attic thing,
if you know what I mean.

Check this out: my sister and I are like big brother and sister to this
girl who's the daughter of my sister's friend's sister (got
that?)...her own mother is one of these ghetto party-types who dumps
her daughter with grand-parents, friends, etc. -- anyone, so long as
she can do the Jerry Springer thing...now is it right for us to be
minding this child? But if we don't, who will? The girl, Marianna,
has in effect been dumped on our doorstep (an even longer story)...what
do we do? If we don't play with her, take her out, etc., this kid will
be left vegetating at home in front of the TV.

The strictly principled stand is to "insist" on parental
responsibility, etc. The more practical thing seems to just
accommodate oneself to particular circumstances.

It's like -- stand back now -- welfare. Is it right? No, I don't
think so. But what will you do with all the -- ahem -- ghetto
free-loaders whose children are suddenly deprived, etc., in the absence
of a welfare check? Or handing out condoms in high school, or
abortion, or homosexuality...any hot button issue can be approached
from this "lesser of two evils" mentality -- you personally may not
agree with the morality of anything, but what's the alternative?

It's the old story of Jonah. Remember?

Hell is other people, as Sartre said. =)

I'll bet you wouldn't buy a shampoo you knew
was tested by being squirted in puppy's eyes(hypothetical, of course).

Actually, I eat meat, knowing full well the sickening conditions under
which this meat was raised.

(BTW, I heard on NPR last week that now scientists can actually create
meat -- chicken, beef, etc. -- in the laboratory! Anyone else hear
this???)

Why
you wouldn't have a problem buying a bicycle made in a country whose
government routinely does worse things to people is beyond me.

Conveninence -- and also the conviction, for the time being at least,
that an economically strong China will mean improved every-day
conditions for the average Chinese, as we read that it has ever since
the '80s.

Don't forget that Taiwan used to make a bunch of stuff, and yet they
too had been a dictatorship until the mid-'80s. South Korea, etc.

Are you against trade with Vietnam, too? They're also a Commie
dictatorship...but I don't see any political wrangling over them.

I guess I'm just saying, as Three Fire also noted, that the big shots
in any society will always be comfortable...sanctions and war only
hurts the little folks. They should be employed as a last resort,
AFAIK.

http://www.un.org/peace/africa/Diamond.html
http://www.amnestyusa.org/diamonds/index.do

Basically, conflict diamonds are those from Sierra Leone, Angola, and Congo.
The sales of diamonds finance rebels who commit horrible atrocities against
the civilian populations. Chopping off hands and feet with machetes is
routine. I really don't think a little bling is worth somebody losing their
hands, and the UN agrees.

Many thanks for the elucidation!

In the case of Africa, it does appear that the goods' sole purpose is
to finance war...China's different in that the goods provide for the
American lifestyle of cheap convenience which we're used to, and any
benefit to China's military ambitions are indirect, in the form of
taxes they levy -- which taxes they'd levy anyway.

Your whole thing seems to be about Chinese military capabilities and
domestic dictatorial atrocities...I read the papers too, and it's
really distressing to read about peasants being beaten up and killed by
local police for protesting the environmental abuse of their lands by
factory dumping...but this stuff goes on anyway, with or without the
American consumer. Whereas not purchasing conflict diamonds directly
undercut African civil wars, I just don't see how not purchasing
Chinese-made goods undercut Commie abuses. I mean, you think
successive Administrations couldn't have figured this out if it were
that simple??

RonSonic wrote:
Ah, yes, conventional wisdom. That's why it's so hard for me to find a
"comfort bike" with "performance" specs!


Sorta like finding a luxury car with sports car performance and minivan cargo
capacity.

Actually it's easier to do with a bike, but it would need to be custom
built, start with a light frame, preferably one with fittings for
fenders and racks, add a carbon or Ti fork, then build up the way you
want from there. Bike components are all highly interchangable, so it
should be easy enough to build a comfort bike, using some racing
components, some MTB components, and add a Brooks saddle for comfort.

W

Jeff Starr wrote:


What do you have against water bottles? How are you going to ride 50+
miles, at a fast pace, and not drink any liquids?

No, I've got nothing "against" them...I just stop by the local
convenience store wherever I happen to be at for water -- Dasani
osmosis-purified Rasberry or Lemon!

You are asking questions, but then debating or dismissing the answers.

I guess I'm employing the "Socratic Method" of inquiry that got him
killed....

You don't like being numb in the crotch? Padded shorts might help
that.

Yes, I'll give that $40 pair a try, soon...y'all are so for these
things I'm gonna try and see. Just always figured on them being
gimmicks -- like bottled water!

Saddles are a personal thing, with certain general rules of thumb. You
need a saddle that lines up with your sit bones, one that is
comfortable for you. I went through four different saddles, before I
settled on a Selle Italia Prolink basic.

Ah, another ref! Thanks!

I really don't understand your reluctance to work with a LBS. They
have to ask questions to understand your needs, and they are going to
try to clear up your misconceptions, which would be no easy job.

Exactly -- I'm afraid to get blacklisted in NYC! Besides, they've got
sales to make...how do I know they even intend on being impartial?

If you buy a bike online, without at least getting a pro fit and then
assistance in fitting the new bike, you will continue to be
uncomfortable.

So what's a "pro fit"? This shop, Pedal Pushers, has what they call
laser
fitting...http://pedalpusherbikeshop.com/site/...geID=95...does
this look genuine??

I just don't want to feel obligated...you see how folks here think I'm
being argumentative about things, when all I'm doing is asking
questions and follow-up questions...imagine a busy bike shop dealing
with that! Fitting me out, etc., only to have me decide to buy
elsewhere.

Forget Communist dictatorships...I feel bad enough doing that to my
LBS!

Life is Good!
Jeff

Jeff Starr wrote:


What do you have against water bottles? How are you going to ride 50+
miles, at a fast pace, and not drink any liquids?

No, I've got nothing "against" them...I just stop by the local
convenience store wherever I happen to be at for water -- Dasani
osmosis-purified Rasberry or Lemon!

You are asking questions, but then debating or dismissing the answers.

I guess I'm employing the "Socratic Method" of inquiry that got him
killed....

You don't like being numb in the crotch? Padded shorts might help
that.

Yes, I'll give that $40 pair a try, soon...y'all are so for these
things I'm gonna try and see. Just always figured on them being
gimmicks -- like bottled water!

Saddles are a personal thing, with certain general rules of thumb. You
need a saddle that lines up with your sit bones, one that is
comfortable for you. I went through four different saddles, before I
settled on a Selle Italia Prolink basic.

Ah, another ref! Thanks!

I really don't understand your reluctance to work with a LBS. They
have to ask questions to understand your needs, and they are going to
try to clear up your misconceptions, which would be no easy job.

Exactly -- I'm afraid to get blacklisted in NYC! Besides, they've got
sales to make...how do I know they even intend on being impartial?

If you buy a bike online, without at least getting a pro fit and then
assistance in fitting the new bike, you will continue to be
uncomfortable.

So what's a "pro fit"? This shop, Pedal Pushers, has what they call
laser
fitting...http://pedalpusherbikeshop.com/site/...geID=95...does
this look genuine??

I just don't want to feel obligated...you see how folks here think I'm
being argumentative about things, when all I'm doing is asking
questions and follow-up questions...imagine a busy bike shop dealing
with that! Fitting me out, etc., only to have me decide to buy
elsewhere.

Forget Communist dictatorships...I feel bad enough doing that to my
LBS!

Life is Good!
Jeff

NYC XYZ wrote:
Bill Sornson wrote:

NYC, Just frigging go to a shop already; why is that so distasteful
for you?!?

Well, I guess I'd be ****ing off folks there, too -- so why not come
here and do it? =)

Also, I'd feel obligated to buy something for all the questions I'd
pepper them with. Besides, they'd have other customers coming and
going...etc.

One last try.

The idea is to buy a bike. You go to a shop, tell them about the kind of
riding you do (or want/plan to do), and listen to their advice. You try out
what they have to offer. Maybe something really grabs you; maybe nothing
really does. Repeat a few times at /various/ bike shops, and either pick
something or wait a while longer.

Or, just buy one of those Airbornes and make it work.

Then go ride.

Out, BS

"NYC XYZ" wrote in message
oups.com...

Bill Sornson wrote:


As I said 12 hours ago, "Dude, you're all over the map."

Stream-of-consciousness tends to be like that...and no, I can't
organize my thoughts 'cause I have no idea of the "territory" here so
questions just come out -- like when you're doing something for the
first time and you just do whatever instead of in any systematic way
because you haven't any theory in you by which to organize your
actions....

Bill "OK, this time I /really/ give up!" S.

Thanks for playing!

Seriously, I figured I'd get that response from a bike shop, too, so
that's why I'm here. =)


No, you're here to troll and argue, not get information.

"NYC XYZ" wrote in message
oups.com...

Gooserider wrote:


Then you shouldn't be worrying so much about frame material and a couple
of
pounds on the bike.

I am all the more, actually, precisely because I myself am so heavy!

Comfort is more about position and fit on the bike. Comfort is
cumulative.

Indeed, and that's why, being cumulative, I figured that every pound
counts where it can be shaved off, even if to wind up making room for
something else deemed necessary!

Comfort has about nothing to do with bike weight, NYC. If you want to climb
hills, then the bike's gearing needs to be appropriate. A triple crankset
with wide enough range in the rear cassette will make climbing easy.

No, but it definitely affects comfort. An upright position with less
weight
on the hands makes a huge difference.

On the hands! That's why I'd said elsewhere that cycling seems
"inherently uncomfortable"...always something being stressed out. =)

I've heard (and experienced) of more people having hand pain/numbness than
any other bike complaint. Why? Because people ride ill-fitting bikes.

Well, if anything, I've learned from all these discussions that a
drop-bar would be better, insofar as it offers more hand
positions...seems obvious now, but I'd just never thought of it!

I'd say the majority are. There are some aluminum(Cannondale comes to
mind)
and some Ti(Airborne, Lightspeed), but most are steel.

Hmm!

"NYC XYZ" wrote in message
oups.com...

Gooserider wrote:


Ah, the wonders of free trade. How many American Ti fabricators could be
employed if those bikes were made here?

I imagine the American companies do high-end Ti work -- M1 Abrams Main
Battle Tanks, for example.

Can I find American made cheap plastic junk? No. Can I find bicycles,
cars,
motorcycles, appliances, and electronics not made in China. Sure, and I
have.

Careful the components are out-sourced and actually made in China! The
devil's in the details.

Not my Nissan. Japanese parts, American parts, made in Tennessee by
rednecks. Can I vouch for every single part of every thing I own? Of course
not. But every little bit helps.

If the sticker says "Made in Taiwan", then that's the deal. They're all
made
at the same factories, anyway.

Damn, I'm surprised you trust a "Made in Taiwan" sticker over
Airborne's "Made in USA" sticker.

Airborne admits their frames are made in China. My Ibex is made in Taiwan:
http://www.ibexbikes.com/About_IBEX.html

We established our production in Taiwan, R.O.C. at a time when many
manufacturers are migrating to mainland China in search of cheaper labor and
production costs. From much experience in the manufacture of other products
we were shy of the inconsistent quality sometimes created by these
cost-cutting measures. Taiwan has a long and reputable history in the
bicycle industry with many highly skilled craftsmen experienced at all
phases of bicycle production.



My Schwinn Peloton was also made in Taiwan. Of course, it's a pre-Pacific
buyout Schwinn. My Mongoose MTB was made in Taiwan a LOOOONG time before
China entered the game. And, naturally, my Gunnar was made in Wisconsin from
American made True Temper steel. My conscience is clear.