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flaw in Routes des Grandes Alpes of France
The northern section of the "official" Route des Grandes Alpes is not very
"grand" and not very "alpine". But there is an alternate "grander" route, and now I've ridden the key parts of it (after previous riding the "official" version) -- and the "grander" alternative definitely was more spectacular and more interesting. I think it truly presents the "Grandes Alpes" -- indeed the "grandest" of the entire route from the Mediterranean sea to Lac Leman. Here's some photos: http://www.roberts-1.com/t/b07/f/k/j Thanks to Jobst for suggesting the Gorges du Trient, and I thought of him when I took the photo of the train alongside the route. The "official" northern section of the Route des Grandes Alpes goes over Col des Gets (altitude 1170m) to connect between Col de la Colombiere (south of Scionzier and Cluses) and the south shore of Lac Leman (Lake Geneva). The "high peak" near there is Roc d'Enfer (2243m). The "grander" alternate version goes thru Sallanches and Chamonix, then over Col des Montets (altitude 1461m), clearly higher than Col des Gets. Next it can over Col de la Forclaz (1527m) or down the Gorges du Trient to connect with Martigny. Finally this route could either stay low in the Rhone valley to connect with Lac Leman (Lake Geneva), or it climb over yet one more pass, Pas de Morgins (1369m) back into France. Mountains prominently in view close above the road in that alternate version are Mont Blanc (4808m) and Aiguille Verte (4122m) and other great mountains -- all far higher and more spectacular and "alpine" than the one along the "official" route. I'm guessing that the makers of the "official" route did not choose that grander alternative because part of it goes outside of France, thru Switzerland. But the mountains along this northern section are the grandest mountains of _France_. So they properly belong on the Route. To maintain a big Route which avoids getting up close to Mont Blanc massif is a denial of the greatness of the _French_ Grandes Alpes. Argument over principle aside, I really enjoyed riding the lesser-known roads from Sallanches to Servoz to les Houches to Chamonix, and I always like being there in the town of Chamonix (this was my first time on a bicycle). I could have used less traffic between Chamonix and Argentiere - (interesting that the day I rode they reserved the tunnel for the bicycles and required the cars to go around it outside.) And less traffic on around the curves up to Col des Montets. Then I liked riding in the valley thru le Buet and Vallorcine to the France-Switzerland border. After climbing up to the village of Finhaut I found the unpaved trail to Salvan, but I did not much like doing it in the downhill direction: much too steep to be fun for me. I met another cyclist taking it uphill. And the gorge was not as spectacular as I was hoping -- at least not most of what I could see from the path, which was lots and lots of trees. Then lower down after I rejoined the road, I much enjoyed the downhills and curves and big views down into the Rhone valley. I also rode over Col de la Forclaz, and I liked that too. But I did not get a chance to try riding over Pas de Morgins. I'd be glad to hear reports about it (including Does it offer a great view of the Dents du Midi?) Ken |
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flaw in Routes des Grandes Alpes of France
On 27 Set, 01:02, "Ken Roberts"
I also rode over Col de la Forclaz, and I liked that too. Which is my most hated Col, ever. Very busy, hot and dry, unforgivingly and consistently steep. A real pain for an august afternoon of many years ago. Always dodged ever since ... . Sergio Pisa |
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flaw in Route des Grandes Alpes of France
sergio wrote
I also rode over Col de la Forclaz Which is my most hated Col, ever. Very busy, hot and dry, unforgivingly and consistently steep. A real pain for an august afternoon of many years ago. Always dodged ever since ... . For you there is the alternative of the Gorges du Trient thru Salvan and Finhaut. I'm not proposing this Forclaz (not to be confused with at least two other "Forclaz" passes) as one of the great cols of Europe. Just that there were some pretty views from the road on both sides of the pass (prettier than some other passes I've crossed), the road was decently wide and well-paved, it was a satisfying challange to get up it. And the setting of the lower section looking out over the vineyards and "big bend" of the Rhone valley is different from most other climbs. I think the key with Forclaz is what expectations you bring to it and what direction you ride it. I did see other riders on it, and I assume they were not all ignorant visitors from USA. More of them were going in the direction toward Martigny (SW - NE) than away from Martigny. (I was going away). Which means they were taking the biggest sustained incline with the most car traffic in the downhill direction, while enjoying the nice views over Rhone valley. What's tricky for interpreting that observation is that there's three ways to get to be riding down that section: (1) by first climbing up the same way from Martigny earlier in the morning when it was cooler and less traffic; (2) by taking the train which I photographed from Martigny to le Chatelard at the France-Switzerland border or further into France to le Buet or Chamonix or even St Gervais and then riding one-way to Switzerland; (3) climbing up from Martigny thru the Gorges du Trient and returning over Col de la Forclaz. The least attractive of those seems like option (1), especially if you modify it to option (1b): climbing up on a hot afternoon. Very busy I expected lots of car traffic, since I've driven my car over that pass several times. I didn't like that aspect, but the road was decently wide, so I felt it was managable. If climbing up from Martigny riding up the first long switchback could be intimidating, because on your left side are cars and motorcycles whizzing by at high speed immediately to your right is a very steep drop-off into the vineyards, protected by only a guardrail. A different perspective is that it's a big "balcony" view of the Rhone valley, and by taking it in the uphill direction you're getting lots of time to savor it. Yet another perspective is that overcoming the intimidation of that first switchback makes reaching the top more satisfying. ... unforgivingly and consistently steep. Less so than Colle dell'Agnello from Chianale, or the north side of Sampeyre. I started well-hydrated and well-fed, and I stopped several times for photos and each time made sure to drink and eat more sweets. A couple of years ago I went thru my phase of "proving" that I could get to the top of big famous climbs without stopping, so now I'm free to just climb with whatever strategy or technique feels right at the moment. Ken |
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flaw in Routes des Grandes Alpes of France
Well, Ken, it's fun to compare different people's experiences.
That first time I ever rode from the Rhone Valley to Chamnonix was probably in 1973. The day before I had gone from Brig up to Zermatt and back down to Sierre. The following day I wanted to go through Chamonix. On Col de la Forclaz I suffered really badly hunger and thirst, to the point that I drank from a creek, taking my risks (I think there are still no supply points along the way). Up higher I started riding at times on the left, just to be in the shadow from the trees. When I later happened to be in the area again, I always took care not to ride up from Martigny. I did plan it the other way around. About four years ago, after going up from Sion to Sanetsch and back, I boarded a bus in Martigny, I got off at Forclaz and rode over through Chamonix to Saint Gervais. It is certainly not the steepest, nor the toughest by all means, road. It is just consistently steep, quite monotonous in fact. I just hate it, and never wanted to struggle on it ever again. You see, I feel I have nothing to prove about it. So badly I hate it! Sergio Pisa |
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flaw in Route des Grandes Alpes of France
After that experience I can see why you'd never do it again.
Actually Sergio is right: Col de la Forclaz really is fairly steep climbing from Martigny: sustained around 8% grade (similar to Alpe d'Huez). btw some maps indicate that Martigny - Forclaz has a 12% grade section. I'm convinced this is not true. My suspicion is that decades ago there was a 12% section, but since then the road has been modernized and re-routed so it's no longer there. But the mapmakers prefer to leave the steeper number if they're not sure, because very few drivers or cyclists complain if they find that a road is easier than they were led to expect. Col des Montets -- Similarly I did not find anything like a 12% grade climbing up its north side, despite what some maps may say. btw I saw indications that France is planning to build a road tunnel under Col des Montets. (Which fits with the new ski lift they built at Vallorcine -- a couple of years ago in March I went up that lift then climbed higher on skis and finished by descending to Trient, Switzerland). My "Carte cyclotouristique" / "Touristic Cycling Map" of Switzerland by Kuemmerly+Frey and swisstravelcenter.ch marks the Col de la Forclaz road as in the category of "Routes recommandees par l'ATE" / "Bicycle routes recommended by the Swiss Association for Transport and Environment". Also in that category is the Gorges du Trient thru Salvan + Finhaut. Of course Martigny - Salvan - Finhaut has a section _much_ steeper than anything on Forclaz -- unless you're an elite rider, just plan on walking that part. Ken |
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flaw in Route des Grandes Alpes of France
On Sep 27, 4:01 pm, "Ken Roberts"
btw some maps indicate that Martigny - Forclaz has a 12% grade section. I'm convinced this is not true. My suspicion is that decades ago there was a 12% There is a picture you must dig out from the section between pages 160 and 161 of the book:'Wij waren allemaal goden' by Benjo Maso. There are cyclists walking their bikes up Col de la Forclaz; among them Alfredo Binda and Colombo. So, you could be right. although, as you know, there are several Col de la Forclaz in the Alps. Another possibility is that the old road was that one through the gorge, the one that Jobst has repeatedly talked about (and which I never covered in fact). That main road shooting up from Martigny does really appear to be quite modern. An acquaintence of mine (a friend of Jobst's from Ivrea, in fact) once said to me: 'It looks like it has been designed with the help of a computer, it being so steady and consistent in grade'. I would second that. P.s. Should we ask my friend Benjo about that picture? Col des Montets -- Similarly I did not find anything like a 12% grade climbing up its north side, If I remember well, there is a very steep stretch going down from Forclaz towards Vallorcine and a shorter shoulder to get to Col de Montets therefrom. Sergio Pisa |
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flaw in Route des Grandes Alpes of France
sergio wrote
Col des Montets -- Similarly I did not find anything like a 12% grade climbing up its north side, If I remember well, there is a very steep stretch going down from Forclaz towards Vallorcine and a shorter shoulder to get to Col de Montets therefrom. Maybe that shows that memory for slope steepness is tricky (I know mine is faulty, that's why I've come to rely on slope measurements from topographical maps), or that roads change. The map I was looking at claimed 9% steepness grade for the southwest side of Forclaz (toward le Chatelard and Vallorcine). There's a steepness profile for that climb on the right side of this page: http://climbbybike.com/climb.asp?qryMountainID=5294 shows a section of +250 vertical meters sustained around 7.5% grade. Not to be taken lightly, but it's not 9% and it's not 12% steepness grade. Definitely not as hard as the longer climb on the other side of Forclaz (the northeast side toward Martigny), which has +570 vertical meters sustained over 8% grade, followed by another +400 meters over 7% grade. One map I've got claimed 12% steepness grade for the north side of Montets (toward Vallorcine). There's a steepness profile for the north side of Montets on the right side of this page: http://climbbybike.com/climb.asp?qryMountainID=6532 which fits my perception thru my legs: Nothing near as steep as 12%. Anyway climbing over Montets and Forclaz are likely more difficult (and surely longer) than the "official" Route des Grandes Alpes over les Gets -- but bicycling thru the "Grandes Alpes" is _supposed_ to be a difficult accomplishment. Ken |
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