insurance claim - valuation and depreciation (very long)

Last month I had an accident placing my bike and I against a Mercury Sable.
I lost. I have already contacted the at-fault driver's insurance company,
and they are going to pay for my medical bills, time off work, and a sum for
pain and suffering. I should be alright, as long as I can shake some
lingering back pain. Today, I met with a claim's specialist from
Progressive about my bike.

She did not give me any problems about declaring the bike a total loss. Two
bike shops expressed concerns about the integrity of the carbon fiber
frameset (1996ish Trek 2100). The problem now is that she refuses to pay me
any more than I paid for the bike + upgrades over the past year. I
explained that I had shopped around for the best buys on the best
components. It took me weeks and sometimes months to find the best deals on
parts, hunting Ebay and online classifieds to save a buck. If I add up the
price to buy a similiar bike + the component and wheel upgrades I arrive at
$1900, and this was using the absolute best prices available (online
vendors) WITHOUT bargain hunting for months. However, my actual expenses
(with receipts) over the past year total just under $1400, with the Trek
2100 being the only used item purchased (the components and wheelset were
brand new). The accident was not my fault. I do not feel it is reasonable
for them to expect me to bargain shop (eating up more weeks and dozens of
additional hours) while I have no bike to ride (before the accident I road
5-6 times per week, 30+ miles per ride). In addition, a comparably equipped
bicycle today (carbon/aluminum frameset with Ultegra/Centaur components) is
between $1750-2100. I do understand the viewpoint of the insurance company:
they want to depreciate the bike. However, it isn't my fault I have to buy
a replacement bike. Their client put me in this position. I would accept a
reduced settlement to purchase a comparable used bike, but that requires
time that I really am not prepared to give. Who knows how long it will take
to find a quality used bike in the right size and proper setup to suit my
needs?

At this point, I am leaning towards buying the new bike I want, a Giant TCR
composite, and settling later with the insurance company. I am/was prepared
to spend a little more to get a nice new bike, but I cannot make it happen
if they offer me 20-30% less than I paid for the bike. $1000 wouldn't even
come close to buying what I have now, at least not in a reasonable
timeframe. Not only do they want to screw me over by forcing me to
downgrade, but they also get to keep my Trek and sell off the good parts and
reduce their out-of-pocket. I really don't care what their bottom line is.
My priority is just getting well again and getting back on a bike.

Am I out of line? Should I just suck up the loss, and spend more bucks out
of pocket to replace a bike that was perfectly fine for me? I didn't get a
lawyer. I hope I don't regret that decision.

Jurgen

In article ,
says...
they want to depreciate the bike. However, it isn't my fault I have to buy
a replacement bike. Their client put me in this position. I would accept a
reduced settlement to purchase a comparable used bike, but that requires
time that I really am not prepared to give. Who knows how long it will take
to find a quality used bike in the right size and proper setup to suit my
needs?


First of all, I am really sorry that you got hurt. But the problem is
that from the insurance company's point of view none of that stuff is
relevant. Liability insurance is always targeted towards a depreciated
value. They are paying for you to replace your *used* bike, and sadly
enough, the fact that it is hard to replace is not relevant. In fact,
you would be better off if you had bought expensive upgrades because you
would have those receipts to back you up. They have to go by some
measure to determine depreciation. They can either just do some linear
method, or they can look at the value you have put into it over time for
upgrades. Consider yourself luck that they are even looking at your
upgrades -- they don't have to.

At this point, I am leaning towards buying the new bike I want, a Giant TCR
composite, and settling later with the insurance company. I am/was prepared
to spend a little more to get a nice new bike, but I cannot make it happen
if they offer me 20-30% less than I paid for the bike. $1000 wouldn't even
come close to buying what I have now, at least not in a reasonable
timeframe. Not only do they want to screw me over by forcing me to
downgrade, but they also get to keep my Trek and sell off the good parts and
reduce their out-of-pocket.

Oh please. Do you really think Trek is going to part out your bike?
They will either throw it in the dumpster or sell it at auction for $50
or something. It would cost them far more in time to part it out than
they could ever make.

I really don't care what their bottom line is.
My priority is just getting well again and getting back on a bike.


You may not care about their bottom line, but rest assured they do.
They also don't care at all about getting you back on a bike.

Am I out of line? Should I just suck up the loss, and spend more bucks out
of pocket to replace a bike that was perfectly fine for me? I didn't get a
lawyer. I hope I don't regret that decision.


A lawyer is not going to touch you getting screwed about the value of
your bike. They might be interested in the whole pain and suffering
bit, but those kinds of lawyers typically take 50% or so of any
settlement.

If this kind of loss is a hardship for you, then you might consider
getting some kind of replacement insurance, like renters insurance or
similar. This would pay to replace your bike with a brand new
equivalent. It would be the equivalent of comprehensive insurance on a
car. You can check rates to see if that would be worth it to you.

I know it sucks, but I don't think you have much of a basic to do
anything on the depreciated bike claim. That is just how that stuff
works.

So, shouldn't they cover a replacement vehicle up and until they reach a
settlement with you??
(get it in writing)
Rent a car as a replacement vehicle, even if you don't drive it - just let
it sit so they can pay for it.
And isn't the pain increasing (even as I write this) ??
Pain is very hard to judge, I would imagine that you probably need a cane or
crutches to get around (and especially to your next meeting with the
insurance adjuster).
Why, you might even be suffering so much that you need a wheelchair for that
next meeting, and have to hire a medical transporter service to get you
there...
I'm suffering from back pain even thinking about it.
Oh yeah, sometimes accidents like you describe have long term side effects
which result in reduction in functionality "down there", what a devastating
loss you've had.

Do not let them settle this piece by piece, and every time they try to
reduce the amount for the bike, say something like, "You know, I really
think we should concentrate on the larger matter, I'm still in considerable
pain, and I think we should be talking about doubling (tripling, quitupling)
that amount..."
They might get the idea.


"Slartibartfast" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...
they want to depreciate the bike. However, it isn't my fault I have to
buy
a replacement bike. Their client put me in this position. I would
accept a
reduced settlement to purchase a comparable used bike, but that requires
time that I really am not prepared to give. Who knows how long it will
take
to find a quality used bike in the right size and proper setup to suit
my
needs?


First of all, I am really sorry that you got hurt. But the problem is
that from the insurance company's point of view none of that stuff is
relevant. Liability insurance is always targeted towards a depreciated
value. They are paying for you to replace your *used* bike, and sadly
enough, the fact that it is hard to replace is not relevant. In fact,
you would be better off if you had bought expensive upgrades because you
would have those receipts to back you up. They have to go by some
measure to determine depreciation. They can either just do some linear
method, or they can look at the value you have put into it over time for
upgrades. Consider yourself luck that they are even looking at your
upgrades -- they don't have to.

At this point, I am leaning towards buying the new bike I want, a Giant
TCR
composite, and settling later with the insurance company. I am/was
prepared
to spend a little more to get a nice new bike, but I cannot make it
happen
if they offer me 20-30% less than I paid for the bike. $1000 wouldn't
even
come close to buying what I have now, at least not in a reasonable
timeframe. Not only do they want to screw me over by forcing me to
downgrade, but they also get to keep my Trek and sell off the good parts
and
reduce their out-of-pocket.

Oh please. Do you really think Trek is going to part out your bike?
They will either throw it in the dumpster or sell it at auction for $50
or something. It would cost them far more in time to part it out than
they could ever make.

I really don't care what their bottom line is.
My priority is just getting well again and getting back on a bike.


You may not care about their bottom line, but rest assured they do.
They also don't care at all about getting you back on a bike.

Am I out of line? Should I just suck up the loss, and spend more bucks
out
of pocket to replace a bike that was perfectly fine for me? I didn't
get a
lawyer. I hope I don't regret that decision.


A lawyer is not going to touch you getting screwed about the value of
your bike. They might be interested in the whole pain and suffering
bit, but those kinds of lawyers typically take 50% or so of any
settlement.

If this kind of loss is a hardship for you, then you might consider
getting some kind of replacement insurance, like renters insurance or
similar. This would pay to replace your bike with a brand new
equivalent. It would be the equivalent of comprehensive insurance on a
car. You can check rates to see if that would be worth it to you.

I know it sucks, but I don't think you have much of a basic to do
anything on the depreciated bike claim. That is just how that stuff
works.

Thanks for the response. I guess I will just have to accept the facts.
I'll lose in round 1, but I'm going to punch harder in round 2. Oh well.

j

Jürgen Hartwig wrote:


Am I out of line? Should I just suck up the loss, and spend more bucks out
of pocket to replace a bike that was perfectly fine for me? I didn't get a
lawyer. I hope I don't regret that decision.

I haven't had that experience with a bike (thank goodness) but I've had
it with a car. Just an old, well-loved economy car, a model no longer
made. I'd spent a large amount of money getting the engine rebuilt,
plus some other work, so I could keep using it. Soon afterward, a
red-light-runner totaled it while my daughter was driving. He
immediately accepted all responsibility. (It was very clear cut, with
witnesses, etc.)

The insurance adjuster wanted to give me the low end of the book value
for the car. I mentioned the considerable investment I'd made to be
able to keep using the car. He said I'd simply made a bad investment,
and that it wasn't their concern. I felt exactly as you do.

I talked with several friends who worked for insurance companies. They
said to not accept an offer I didn't believe was fair. One said that
insurance adjusters don't want to pay more than they have to, but they
hate to have "open" files left on their desks.

So I stonewalled him. Fortunately, I could wait for the money. I just
kept explaining I wasn't satisfied, I kept explaining why the car was
worth more to me. His phone calls became less and less frequent.

Finally, at least a month after the incident, he called again and said
"Exactly how much money would you need to settle this right now?" I
figured we were going to dicker, so I shot about $300 high.

There was silence for a couple seconds, then he said "OK. The check
will be in the mail."


Borrow a bike from a friend and stonewall.


--
Frank Krygowski

Hey:

CONSULT WITH AN ATTORNEY ASAP!

If the insurer already wants to pay medicals, "pain & suffering" and
economic damages (lost income), it probably has some exposure, and it is
likely low-balling you on a settlement amount because it knows you are both
unrepresented, and unpracticed in legal and insurance-related matters.

Yes, personal injury attorneys generally work on contingency -- usually 1/3
plus expenses. That being said, most will initially consult with you for
free and assess the strengths and weaknesses of your case. If the insurer
is offering a fair settlement now, a reputable attorney will tell you to
take it. However, a good PI attorney may be able to obtain a better
settlement, and will not be duped by the insurer. I bet if you even
mention to the claims adjuster that you are planning to consult with an
attorney regarding the settlement of your claims, the insurer will offer
more $$$.

In any event, don't sign anything until you at least consult with an
attorney.

Lastly, if you have any injuries that may be lasting, or that may cause you
problems later, you MAY NOT WANT TO SETTLE YOUR CLAIMS NOW ! Find out what
the limitations period is in your state, and assess your damages after you
have a better sense of the permanency of your injuries. It may turn out
that you're just fine. It may not.

Just by example, a teammate of mine was hit by a car a few years ago. He
though that he was OK -- just a sprained wrist. He wanted to quickly settle
for a few thousand dollars -- enough to get a new bike. At the time, this
seemed fair to him. His injuries seemed relatively minor, and not of the
type that could be permanent. Four years later, my teammate still suffers
from significant wrist problems. It turns out that the wrist injury was far
more serious than initially thought. Because my teammate rushed to settle,
he is now without any recourse against the vehicle owner who hit him.




"Jürgen Hartwig" wrote in message
...
Last month I had an accident placing my bike and I against a Mercury
Sable.
I lost. I have already contacted the at-fault driver's insurance company,
and they are going to pay for my medical bills, time off work, and a sum
for
pain and suffering. I should be alright, as long as I can shake some
lingering back pain. Today, I met with a claim's specialist fromey:
Progressive about my bike.

She did not give me any problems about declaring the bike a total loss.
Two
bike shops expressed concerns about the integrity of the carbon fiber
frameset (1996ish Trek 2100). The problem now is that she refuses to pay
me
any more than I paid for the bike + upgrades over the past year. I
explained that I had shopped around for the best buys on the best
components. It took me weeks and sometimes months to find the best deals
on
parts, hunting Ebay and online classifieds to save a buck. If I add up
the
price to buy a similiar bike + the component and wheel upgrades I arrive
at
$1900, and this was using the absolute best prices available (online
vendors) WITHOUT bargain hunting for months. However, my actual expenses
(with receipts) over the past year total just under $1400, with the Trek
2100 being the only used item purchased (the components and wheelset were
brand new). The accident was not my fault. I do not feel it is
reasonable
for them to expect me to bargain shop (eating up more weeks and dozens of
additional hours) while I have no bike to ride (before the accident I road
5-6 times per week, 30+ miles per ride). In addition, a comparably
equipped
bicycle today (carbon/aluminum frameset with Ultegra/Centaur components)
is
between $1750-2100. I do understand the viewpoint of the insurance
company:
they want to depreciate the bike. However, it isn't my fault I have to
buy
a replacement bike. Their client put me in this position. I would accept
a
reduced settlement to purchase a comparable used bike, but that requires
time that I really am not prepared to give. Who knows how long it will
take
to find a quality used bike in the right size and proper setup to suit my
needs?

At this point, I am leaning towards buying the new bike I want, a Giant
TCR
composite, and settling later with the insurance company. I am/was
prepared
to spend a little more to get a nice new bike, but I cannot make it happen
if they offer me 20-30% less than I paid for the bike. $1000 wouldn't
even
come close to buying what I have now, at least not in a reasonable
timeframe. Not only do they want to screw me over by forcing me to
downgrade, but they also get to keep my Trek and sell off the good parts
and
reduce their out-of-pocket. I really don't care what their bottom line
is.
My priority is just getting well again and getting back on a bike.

Am I out of line? Should I just suck up the loss, and spend more bucks
out
of pocket to replace a bike that was perfectly fine for me? I didn't get
a
lawyer. I hope I don't regret that decision.

Jurgen

snip

I talked with several friends who worked for insurance companies. They
said to not accept an offer I didn't believe was fair. One said that
insurance adjusters don't want to pay more than they have to, but they
hate to have "open" files left on their desks.

So I stonewalled him. Fortunately, I could wait for the money. I just
kept explaining I wasn't satisfied, I kept explaining why the car was
worth more to me. His phone calls became less and less frequent.

Finally, at least a month after the incident, he called again and said
"Exactly how much money would you need to settle this right now?" I
figured we were going to dicker, so I shot about $300 high.

There was silence for a couple seconds, then he said "OK. The check
will be in the mail."


Thanks. This is exactly the type of information I really need. The agent
was pretty adamant about not paying a penny more than I had spent on the
bike. She even told me she MIGHT do me a big favor and NOT depreciate the
expenses. I knew we weren't seeing eye to eye, so I decided to stop
negotiating. Being off my bike has caused a lot of frustration, and I'm
just getting impatient and bitter, particularly while the riding weather is
still spectacular here in Tennessee. I knew things were looking bad when
she declined any references or contacts at bike shops. She just wanted my
receipts (thank goodness for Paypal history).

Fortunately, I do not need to settle immediately, and I can afford to play
games. I was hoping today's meeting would have gone smoothly, but it looks
like this might drag on for at least a few more weeks or months.

I hinted to the agents it is in their best interests to get me back on the
saddle ASAP, but that seems to fall on deaf ears. In their attempts to
squeeze the penny, many dollars float away in the breeze. Go figure.

I'll reply with any news in the hopes it will save another cyclist some
future heartache.

Regards,
Jurgen

Get a lawyer.

I was a victim in an accident about 10 years ago that resulted in a major
concussion that I still suffer from to this day. Believe me, you may be an
honest guy, but the insurance companies aren't honest or fair. They want to
keep their money, plain and simple. They make their profit screwing honest
folk.

The first mistake you made was talking to them at all. Every conversation
you have with them is recorded, and they will use it against you. In fact,
it's the only reason they call ... they sound all nice on the phone like
they care about you, but it's a scam. They're just trying to get you to
screw yourself and you did, quite well actually (no offense).

You should never have told them what you paid for the bike ... with
insurance companies, you have to "pad" the claim to get what's rightfully
yours. Whenever I've been hit in a car, I always got estimates to fix it
.... and instead of giving them the lowest 2 estimates, I gave them the
HIGHEST 2 estimates! Since they're trying to screw you, that way you end up
with a fair amount somewhere in the middle.

Get a lawyer, and don't talk to the insurance company ever again yourself.
Please, trust me. My medical bills came out to six figures, and if I had
been a nice guy I would have lost my house. Insurance companies are
bordering on criminal behavior most of the time ... treat them as if they
were rattlesnakes.

And don't think your back problem will go away either. My head injury never
went away ... it got better after a while, but it still bothers me every
week. In fact, it was about a week or two after the accident that my head
got much worse, and I spent the next year in and out of the hospital.

Get a lawyer. A good one. Don't think you can play their games on the same
level, you can't. They're much better at this than you are.

C.Q.C.

"Jürgen Hartwig" wrote in message
...
Last month I had an accident placing my bike and I against a Mercury
Sable.
I lost. I have already contacted the at-fault driver's insurance company,
and they are going to pay for my medical bills, time off work, and a sum
for
pain and suffering. I should be alright, as long as I can shake some
lingering back pain. Today, I met with a claim's specialist from
Progressive about my bike.

She did not give me any problems about declaring the bike a total loss.
Two
bike shops expressed concerns about the integrity of the carbon fiber
frameset (1996ish Trek 2100). The problem now is that she refuses to pay
me
any more than I paid for the bike + upgrades over the past year. I
explained that I had shopped around for the best buys on the best
components. It took me weeks and sometimes months to find the best deals
on
parts, hunting Ebay and online classifieds to save a buck. If I add up
the
price to buy a similiar bike + the component and wheel upgrades I arrive
at
$1900, and this was using the absolute best prices available (online
vendors) WITHOUT bargain hunting for months. However, my actual expenses
(with receipts) over the past year total just under $1400, with the Trek
2100 being the only used item purchased (the components and wheelset were
brand new). The accident was not my fault. I do not feel it is
reasonable
for them to expect me to bargain shop (eating up more weeks and dozens of
additional hours) while I have no bike to ride (before the accident I road
5-6 times per week, 30+ miles per ride). In addition, a comparably
equipped
bicycle today (carbon/aluminum frameset with Ultegra/Centaur components)
is
between $1750-2100. I do understand the viewpoint of the insurance
company:
they want to depreciate the bike. However, it isn't my fault I have to
buy
a replacement bike. Their client put me in this position. I would accept
a
reduced settlement to purchase a comparable used bike, but that requires
time that I really am not prepared to give. Who knows how long it will
take
to find a quality used bike in the right size and proper setup to suit my
needs?

At this point, I am leaning towards buying the new bike I want, a Giant
TCR
composite, and settling later with the insurance company. I am/was
prepared
to spend a little more to get a nice new bike, but I cannot make it happen
if they offer me 20-30% less than I paid for the bike. $1000 wouldn't
even
come close to buying what I have now, at least not in a reasonable
timeframe. Not only do they want to screw me over by forcing me to
downgrade, but they also get to keep my Trek and sell off the good parts
and
reduce their out-of-pocket. I really don't care what their bottom line
is.
My priority is just getting well again and getting back on a bike.

Am I out of line? Should I just suck up the loss, and spend more bucks
out
of pocket to replace a bike that was perfectly fine for me? I didn't get
a
lawyer. I hope I don't regret that decision.

Jurgen

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 01:03:14 GMT in rec.bicycles.misc, "Jürgen
Hartwig" wrote:

Am I out of line? Should I just suck up the loss, and spend more bucks out
of pocket to replace a bike that was perfectly fine for me? I didn't get a
lawyer. I hope I don't regret that decision.

you might want to have an attorney write a letter for you (one
that you've drafted, to save his time and your $$$) --- stating
that the prices you have quoted are for an equivalent bike, and
you won't settle for less. they're likely to back down if it's
on a lawyer's letterhead, in hopes that they can avoid the cost
of a trial. oh, and don't forget to add the legal expenses of
the letter to the cost of the bike.

My condolences on your loss.

I ride a wonderful bike that I specced from my builder when cost was no
object. It weighs 40-ish pounds and has given me 30,000 miles in less than
six years. It cost me $6K and is possibly irreplaceable - Phil Wood doesn't
list the rear hub any more, for instance.

I bought a replacement cost policy from my major ins. co., a sports
equipment policy. I paid cash for it. When I received the policy I found
that nearly every paragraph excluded bicycles. I bailed on that idea!

I often argue that the problems with the membership and advocacy of the LAB
and NRA are analogous. Here is an opportunity for the LAB to step up and
provide the insurance policy that we need.



Am I out of line? Should I just suck up the loss, and spend more bucks
out
of pocket to replace a bike that was perfectly fine for me? I didn't get
a
lawyer. I hope I don't regret that decision.

Jurgen