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TdF and recumbents



 
 
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  #11  
Old July 28th 08, 12:10 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Jack
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Posts: 7
Default TdF and recumbents

On 28 jul, 12:56, "Edward Dolan" wrote:
snip
I think to be fair about this, you would have to pit a faired recumbent
against a faired upright in a largely mountainous terrain. Otherwise, you
are comparing apples to oranges and not getting to the heart of the
question, which is - can recumbents climb hills as well as uprights? I say
no.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota


Ed,
the going philosophy is that the size of the frontal area makes up
most of the aerodynamic advantage that a recumbent has. An upright
bike will possibly have a larger frontal area.
When you really want to compare the same rider should ride both
machines. In fact, the Chris Boardman and Greame Obree records are at
a high level and set at high altitude race tracks, these are not yet
broken by unfaired recumbent amateur riders.

Jack

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  #12  
Old July 28th 08, 12:38 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
James Thomson
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Posts: 518
Default TdF and recumbents

"Jack" a écrit:

[snip]

In fact, the Chris Boardman and Greame Obree records are at
a high level and set at high altitude race tracks


[snip]

Boardman and Obree's records were all set near sea level - Hamar, Bordeaux,
and Manchester. Indurain and Rominger also rode at Bordeaux.

James Thomson


  #13  
Old July 28th 08, 01:07 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Edward Dolan
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Posts: 14,212
Default TdF and recumbents


"Jack" wrote in message
...
On 28 jul, 12:56, "Edward Dolan" wrote:
snip
I think to be fair about this, you would have to pit a faired recumbent
against a faired upright in a largely mountainous terrain. Otherwise, you
are comparing apples to oranges and not getting to the heart of the
question, which is - can recumbents climb hills as well as uprights? I
say
no.


Ed,
the going philosophy is that the size of the frontal area makes up
most of the aerodynamic advantage that a recumbent has. An upright
bike will possibly have a larger frontal area.
When you really want to compare the same rider should ride both
machines. In fact, the Chris Boardman and Greame Obree records are at
a high level and set at high altitude race tracks, these are not yet
broken by unfaired recumbent amateur riders.

Jack


Recumbents have an aerodynamic advantage, but is it enough to compensate for
how the human body functions in the upright position as opposed to the
recumbent position. I think not, at least not when it comes to climbing
steep hills.

By the way, I can already see the argument against using the same rider on
both a recumbent and an upright. It will be argued that the rider is not as
proficient on one as on the other. Anyway, I am not that fussy. I would just
like to see a race (no drafting allowed) in the mountains with recumbents
pitted against uprights - and I would prefer that they not be faired. I
think that way we could plainly see once and for all that recumbents can't
climb worth a damn.

But anyone who has ever ridden a recumbent in the mountains already knows
how slow they are. It is the first thing you learn about recumbents after
your initial enthusiasm has worn off. If Mr. Sherman were to ride his
recumbent in the mountains of the West or East he would soon be relieved of
his illusions.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota


  #14  
Old July 28th 08, 02:51 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Jon Bendtsen
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Posts: 168
Default TdF and recumbents

Edward Dolan wrote:
"Jack" wrote in message
...
On 28 jul, 12:56, "Edward Dolan" wrote:
snip


[cuuuuut]

By the way, I can already see the argument against using the same rider on
both a recumbent and an upright. It will be argued that the rider is not as
proficient on one as on the other. Anyway, I am not that fussy. I would just


I think that might be easily solveable. Imagien
having a professional racing bike rider. Possible
even a team. You let them have a race on a regular
diamond frame bike where you monitor their power
output.

Then you give them recumbent bikes, possible let
them train and get used to recumbents. Then you
let them race on the same route as they did with
the DF, while monitoring their power output.

You might even do this on different routes of
different length.


If the recumbent bike style wins, then i think you
can conclude that arguments like the rider not being
as proficient on one bike as the other are irrelevant.


Some recumbent bikes are faster than others, and some
recumbent biking technic makes you go faster. I can
feel the difference when i ride my cruzbike. If i pull
my arms i go faster. And there should be one other
advanced cruzbike technic that i havent learned yet.
It's where your arms pulls contra when your leg pushes
forward. This should give even more power.





JonB
  #15  
Old July 28th 08, 03:12 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Peter Clinch
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Posts: 4,852
Default TdF and recumbents

Jon Bendtsen wrote:

[cuuuuut]

By the way, I can already see the argument against using the same
rider on both a recumbent and an upright. It will be argued that the
rider is not as proficient on one as on the other. Anyway, I am not
that fussy. I would just


I think that might be easily solveable. Imagien
having a professional racing bike rider. Possible
even a team. You let them have a race on a regular
diamond frame bike where you monitor their power
output.

Then you give them recumbent bikes, possible let
them train and get used to recumbents. Then you
let them race on the same route as they did with
the DF, while monitoring their power output.

You might even do this on different routes of
different length.

If the recumbent bike style wins, then i think you
can conclude that arguments like the rider not being
as proficient on one bike as the other are irrelevant.


Andy Wilkinson's UK End-toEnd record is a good case for recumebnts.
When he set the record on a recumbent he beat the existing record
held by... himself, on an upright!

in other words, he had, if anything, considerably more upright
experience yet still posted a better time on the 'bent.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
  #16  
Old July 28th 08, 03:29 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Clive George
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Posts: 5,394
Default TdF and recumbents

"Peter Clinch" wrote in message
...

Andy Wilkinson's UK End-toEnd record is a good case for recumebnts. When
he set the record on a recumbent he beat the existing record held by...
himself, on an upright!

in other words, he had, if anything, considerably more upright experience
yet still posted a better time on the 'bent.


Dare I mention that it was faired? Was the upright?

cheers,
clive


  #17  
Old July 28th 08, 04:01 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Edward Dolan
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Posts: 14,212
Default TdF and recumbents


"Clive George" wrote in message
...
"Peter Clinch" wrote in message
...

Andy Wilkinson's UK End-toEnd record is a good case for recumebnts. When
he set the record on a recumbent he beat the existing record held by...
himself, on an upright!

in other words, he had, if anything, considerably more upright experience
yet still posted a better time on the 'bent.


Dare I mention that it was faired? Was the upright?


I suspect it is nick and tuck between recumbents and uprights on the flats,
but it can't be that in the mountains. I just don't see how recumbents can
climb hills at all well, fairing or no fairing.

Recumbents have a well deserved reputation for not being able to climb
hills. It is why all recumbents need to have very low gears compared to
uprights.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota


  #18  
Old July 28th 08, 05:43 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Peter Clinch
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Posts: 4,852
Default TdF and recumbents

Clive George wrote:
"Peter Clinch" wrote in message
...

Andy Wilkinson's UK End-toEnd record is a good case for recumebnts. When
he set the record on a recumbent he beat the existing record held by...
himself, on an upright!

in other words, he had, if anything, considerably more upright experience
yet still posted a better time on the 'bent.


Dare I mention that it was faired? Was the upright?


It's quite a valid point, but there again one point about a
Windcheetah is it's a lot better as a platform for mounting a
fairing on than an upright racer. Which is why the velomobile
industry is based on recumbent trikes, not upright bikes.

The faired Moulton that holds an HPV sprint record would be
completely impractical to ride for 40+ hours, unless you didn't
want to stand up for about a month afterwards or actually see where
you going for quite a lot of the time!

In IHPVA competition there is nothing stopping faired uprights
taking part in races, yet with few exceptions (like that sprinting
Moulton) the designers stick to 'bents. I would suggest they do
that as it works better.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
  #19  
Old July 28th 08, 06:21 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Jon Bendtsen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 168
Default TdF and recumbents

Peter Clinch wrote:
Jon Bendtsen wrote:

[cuuuuut]

By the way, I can already see the argument against using the same
rider on both a recumbent and an upright. It will be argued that the
rider is not as proficient on one as on the other. Anyway, I am not
that fussy. I would just


I think that might be easily solveable. Imagien
having a professional racing bike rider. Possible
even a team. You let them have a race on a regular
diamond frame bike where you monitor their power
output.

Then you give them recumbent bikes, possible let
them train and get used to recumbents. Then you
let them race on the same route as they did with
the DF, while monitoring their power output.

You might even do this on different routes of
different length.

If the recumbent bike style wins, then i think you
can conclude that arguments like the rider not being
as proficient on one bike as the other are irrelevant.


Andy Wilkinson's UK End-toEnd record is a good case for recumebnts.
When he set the record on a recumbent he beat the existing record held
by... himself, on an upright!

in other words, he had, if anything, considerably more upright
experience yet still posted a better time on the 'bent.


Good, i think we can then say that we can not argue that
the rider is not as proficient on one as on the other.

Was his bike a faired recumbent?



JonB
  #20  
Old July 28th 08, 06:33 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Tom Sherman[_2_]
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Posts: 9,890
Default TdF and recumbents

Jack Dekker wrote:
On 28 jul, 12:56, "Edward Dolan" wrote:
snip
I think to be fair about this, you would have to pit a faired recumbent
against a faired upright in a largely mountainous terrain. Otherwise, you
are comparing apples to oranges and not getting to the heart of the
question, which is - can recumbents climb hills as well as uprights? I say
no.


Ed,
the going philosophy is that the size of the frontal area makes up
most of the aerodynamic advantage that a recumbent has. An upright
bike will possibly have a larger frontal area.
When you really want to compare the same rider should ride both
machines. In fact, the Chris Boardman and Greame Obree records are at
a high level and set at high altitude race tracks, these are not yet
broken by unfaired recumbent amateur riders.

Boardman and Obree were putting out ca 450W during their record rides.
By comparison, Sam Whittingham who has set the hour fully-faired record
on a couple of occasions had an average output of about 280W during his
runs, and Sam is considered one of the strongest recumbent racers.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”
 




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