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The Last Word On Cadence And Heart Rate



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 16th 10, 04:59 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing,rec.bicycles.tech
zencycle
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 153
Default The Last Word On Cadence And Heart Rate

Andy Coggan says “heart rate is at best redundant and at worst
misleading”.
Freddie says “cadence is a red herring”.

Andy agrees with freddie on cadence, freddie agrees with andy on heart
rate.

I had never heard of Andy Coggan before I poked my head in here a
couple of weeks ago. I had to do a little research; I found that he
wrote a book. I asked a few friends of mine if they had ever heard of
him. One of them is a coach with a PhD in exercise physiology, and
another is in grad school for the same discipline. The PhD said he
read the book and it was pretty good. The post grad said (quoting
here) “Coggan is perceived as God by many in our field, but he appears
to be a dick when he posts on those forums.”

When I mentioned the current thread on HR and cadence, both the post
grad and the PhD said they agreed with the basic premise that HR was
too variable to be a reliable training tool on its own, but neither
one agrees with the sentiment “heart rate is at best redundant and at
worst misleading”.

The post grad didn’t feel qualified to comment on the cadence issue,
but the PhD said “that’s odd, Coggans book is full of workouts with
cadence and heart rate targets”.

So, I borrowed his copy.

**
From
Training and Racing with a Power Meter by Hunter Allen and Andrew
Coggan

Page 300
VO2max: Race-winning Intervals, Ride 2
“for the main set, start out with 5 minutes at threshold, then ride
for 2 minutes at just above threshold (your heart rate will rise about
5 bpm). Bring it back down to threshold pace. For example, if your
threshold power is 300 watts and your threshold heart rate is 170 BPM,
ride at 300 watts for 5 minutes, then bring the power up to 320 watts
for 2 minutes, raising your heart rate to 175 BPM, then back off again
to a power of 300 watts again. When your heart rate reaches 170 BPM
again, or when the 3 minutes is up, bring it back up to 320 watts (175
BPM)

Page 301
Anaerobic Capacity: FTP and Sweet Spot
“Begin the 45-minute main set by hitting 100 percent of FTHR
(functional threshold heart rate) in a 5 minute effort to get the legs
ready. Do another 5-minute effort at 80 percent of your FTHR”

(Wait...I thought heart rate was “at best redundant and at worst
misleading”. Seems I should go get my HR strap from the trash!)

Page 285
Cadence Drills:
“Ultimately you are hoping power and heart rate remain low at the
higher cadence so you can become more efficient at harder efforts.
Warm up with cadence in the 90-95 rpm range. Start the main set with
six 1- minute on, 1-minute off fast pedaling cadence efforts. Ride 10
minutes easy, then do two 5-minute efforts, trying to get wattage to
FTP and hold it there. RPE should be 5; keep cadence at 100 rpm.”

Page 287
Tempo: Basic Ride 1
“warm up at a high cadence, 95-105 rpm. Begin a solid 35-minute tempo
effort. Keep the pressure on and have fun – this is a fast but
achievable pace. Keep your cadence in the 90-95 RPM range and make
sure you get into a nice breathing rhythm”

(Wait, didn’t freddie say cadence is a ‘red herring’? Didn’t andy say
‘there’s no reason to measure cadence’ in response to Hunters
assertion that ‘cadence plays a vital role in maximizing power’? Good
thing I haven’t posted my cadence sensors on Ebay yet!)

**
As a point of reference, every single one of the workouts listed in
the 30 page workout section has an accompanying chart showing the
percentage of FTHR one should look for.

These are just a few of the dozen+ examples of how ‘irrelevant’
cadence and heart rate are in fitness and race training. They are so
‘irrelevant’, that andy lists specific cadence numbers and HR metrics
for certain workouts, actually referencing to _both_ heart rate and
cadence in the cadence drill.

So, what have we learned?

We’ve learned that – despite andy and freddies assertions to the
contrary, HR and cadence _are_ in fact valuable training tools.

Freddie likes to toss out the canard that “cadence is a red herring”.
He does this with a simple schoolboy trick of showing that torque can
be derived from power, therefore the constituents of _proper_ torque
measurement that necessarily involve the length and angular velocity
of the torque arm (pedal crank) are rendered moot. The resultant claim
being “cadence is irrelevant”.

Well, as we can see from Coggans book and the research papers I linked
in the iBike pro thread, cadence is _quite_ relevant.

Actually, the red herring here is torque. Freddie makes a cute little
chart with as much useful training information as my 6-year-old
niece’s crayola excursions. This chart tells us absolutely nothing
that power doesn’t. Why? Because deriving torque from power is
completely linear. All freddie is doing by presenting us with derived
torque is to show us that he knows middle-school algebra, xy = z.

If you’ve been following the iBike Power meter thread, you’ll note
that I linked peer-reviewed research to support my positions. Did we
get any peer-reviewed research from andy or freddie supporting their
positions? No. We got a school-boy math trick from freddie and andys
rather condescending dismissal of his colleagues work. Nothing beyond
opinions.

Andy and his pathetic little sycophant freddie have been busy
proffering dubious and unsupportable proposition using net bullying
tactics to drive skeptics away, freddie going so far as to laughably
brag about making people his RBT bitches. Well, that hasn’t worked
with me, and I think I’ve proven quite conclusively how complete full
of **** he is.

I’ve also revealed something very curious about andy – he claims HR
and cadence are completely irrelevant, yet he wrote a book that uses
the two metrics as targeted training metrics. There is some _serious_
dysfunction going on there.

Andy will backpedal his position like he did when I pointed out he
used HRPO as a metric when performing his Dmax test. Freddie will
simply dismiss the whole thing with no supportable evidence (other
than his useless torque plot) and most likely make another mother
joke. I’ll leave it up to them to try to explain to everyone here why
they are right with no supporting evidence other than their own
bloviated sense of self-worth, in the face of mountains of peer-
reviewed evidence to the contrary, including andy’s own published
work.

Personally, I don’t care. Freddie is a useless internet baboon whose
opinion carries as much credibility as...well,.. a baboon. Andy has
some bizarre issues going on, and it’s really sad to see someone with
so much potential that has contributed so much to the field descending
into some dark mental state. It’s also quite ironic, because while
Andy and I have agreed on nothing here, I fully agree with the
philosophy in his book.

So I’ll leave them the last word. I need to attend to my life. I’ve
wasted far too much time in this little internet cesspool. Unlike
certain others who camp out here daily using this venue as an outlet
to vent their frustrations over their empty vapid lives, I actually
have a life that doesn’t require validation by winning newsgroup
arguments. I’ll be riding my bike for the next three days. I’m
guessing that will be more than freddie has done this year. I really
see no use in further participation here.
Ads
  #2  
Old September 16th 10, 05:04 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing,rec.bicycles.tech
Clive George
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,394
Default The Last Word On Cadence And Heart Rate

Rate, innit?
  #3  
Old September 16th 10, 05:14 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing,rec.bicycles.tech
Brad Anders
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 759
Default The Last Word On Cadence And Heart Rate

I read the discussion you had with Andy on this topic, and here's my
take. Andy's right and you're wrong, and the fact that he's an expert
and has made you look like a dimwit has ****ed you off. I'm pretty
sure that's what nearly everyone else thinks, too.

thanks,

Brad Anders
  #4  
Old September 16th 10, 06:43 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing,rec.bicycles.tech
Fred on a stick
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 249
Default The Last Word On Cadence And Heart Rate

Zencyle/NecrophiliacBoy ranted:

[snip]

Dumbass,

Nice meltdown.

Come on back to rbr the next time you have a little problem with basic
arithmetic. No, no, not because we'll help, it's cuz we can always use the
entertainment.


  #5  
Old September 16th 10, 06:52 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing,rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,422
Default The Last Word On Cadence And Heart Rate

On Sep 16, 4:59*pm, zencycle wrote:

So I’ll leave them the last word. I need to attend to my life. I’ve
wasted far too much time in this little internet cesspool. Unlike
certain others who camp out here daily using this venue as an outlet
to vent their frustrations over their empty vapid lives, I actually
have a life that doesn’t require validation by winning newsgroup
arguments. I’ll be riding my bike for the next three days. I’m
guessing that will be more than freddie has done this year. I really
see no use in further participation here.


Another uppity anonymous ankle-nipper whines because he got stepped on
by bigger men.

Run, rabbit, run.

Andre Jute
Never more brutal than he has to be -- Nelson Mandela
  #6  
Old September 16th 10, 07:41 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing,rec.bicycles.tech
Anton Berlin
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,381
Default The Last Word On Cadence And Heart Rate

Sell your HRM, cadence equip, that goddamn book and Powertap on ebay
and use the proceeds to buy EPO.

It's what every winning **** in the peloton does and has been doing
for 20 yrs + now.
  #7  
Old September 16th 10, 08:01 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing,rec.bicycles.tech
--D-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,179
Default The Last Word On Cadence And Heart Rate

On Sep 16, 12:52*pm, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sep 16, 4:59*pm, zencycle wrote:

So I’ll leave them the last word. I need to attend to my life. I’ve
wasted far too much time in this little internet cesspool. Unlike
certain others who camp out here daily using this venue as an outlet
to vent their frustrations over their empty vapid lives, I actually
have a life that doesn’t require validation by winning newsgroup
arguments. I’ll be riding my bike for the next three days. I’m
guessing that will be more than freddie has done this year. I really
see no use in further participation here.


Another uppity anonymous ankle-nipper whines because he got stepped on
by bigger men.


Who (Coggan) took the high ground throughout, when dealing with
someone who didn't. And took the time to (or try to) straighten
someone out who really really really didn't want to hear it.

"Cesspool, frustrations, empty vapid lives", just grabbing a small
sample there. Stinky.

What can I say, I'm certified dinosaur old-school and today is the
first time I've ever wanted to go get a power meter g.

(the g is intended to indicate an ironic statement that nevertheless
applauds the content-- and tone-- of the posts I read)

--D-y

  #8  
Old September 16th 10, 09:15 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing,rec.bicycles.tech
TheCoz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 146
Default The Last Word On Cadence And Heart Rate

On Sep 16, 2:01*pm, --D-y wrote:
On Sep 16, 12:52*pm, Andre Jute wrote:

On Sep 16, 4:59*pm, zencycle wrote:


So I’ll leave them the last word. I need to attend to my life. I’ve
wasted far too much time in this little internet cesspool. Unlike
certain others who camp out here daily using this venue as an outlet
to vent their frustrations over their empty vapid lives, I actually
have a life that doesn’t require validation by winning newsgroup
arguments. I’ll be riding my bike for the next three days. I’m
guessing that will be more than freddie has done this year. I really
see no use in further participation here.


Another uppity anonymous ankle-nipper whines because he got stepped on
by bigger men.


Who (Coggan) took the high ground throughout, when dealing with
someone who didn't. And took the time to (or try to) straighten
someone out who really really really didn't want to hear it.

"Cesspool, frustrations, empty vapid lives", just grabbing a small
sample there. Stinky.

What can I say, I'm certified dinosaur old-school and today is the
first time I've ever wanted to go get a power meter g.

(the g is intended to indicate an ironic statement that nevertheless
applauds the content-- and tone-- of the posts I read)

--D-y


Power Cranks. Get with the program.
Coz
  #9  
Old September 16th 10, 09:18 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing,rec.bicycles.tech
Tom_A
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 65
Default The Last Word On Cadence And Heart Rate

On Sep 16, 8:59*am, zencycle wrote:
Andy Coggan says “heart rate is at best redundant and at worst
misleading”.
Freddie says “cadence is a red herring”.

Andy agrees with freddie on cadence, freddie agrees with andy on heart
rate.

I had never heard of Andy Coggan before I poked my head in here a
couple of weeks ago. I had to do a little research; I found that he
wrote a book. I asked a few friends of mine if they had ever heard of
him. One of them is a coach with a PhD in exercise physiology, and
another is in grad school for the same discipline. The PhD said he
read the book and it was pretty good. The post grad said (quoting
here) “Coggan is perceived as God by many in our field, but he appears
to be a dick when he posts on those forums.”

When I mentioned the current thread on HR and cadence, both the post
grad and the PhD said they agreed with the basic premise that HR was
too variable to be a reliable training tool on its own, but neither
one agrees with the sentiment “heart rate is at best redundant and at
worst misleading”.

The post grad didn’t feel qualified to comment on the cadence issue,
but the PhD said “that’s odd, Coggans book is full of workouts with
cadence and heart rate targets”.

So, I borrowed his copy.

**
From
*Training and Racing with a Power Meter by Hunter Allen and Andrew
Coggan

Page 300
VO2max: Race-winning Intervals, Ride 2
“for the main set, start out with 5 minutes at threshold, then ride
for 2 minutes at just above threshold (your heart rate will rise about
5 bpm). Bring it back down to threshold pace. For example, if your
threshold power is 300 watts and your threshold heart rate is 170 BPM,
ride at 300 watts for 5 minutes, then bring the power up to 320 watts
for 2 minutes, raising your heart rate to 175 BPM, then back off again
to a power of 300 watts again. When your heart rate reaches 170 BPM
again, or when the 3 minutes is up, bring it back up to 320 watts (175
BPM)

Page 301
Anaerobic Capacity: FTP and Sweet Spot
“Begin the 45-minute main set by hitting 100 percent of FTHR
(functional threshold heart rate) in a 5 minute effort to get the legs
ready. Do another 5-minute effort at 80 percent of your FTHR”

(Wait...I thought heart rate was “at best redundant and at worst
misleading”. Seems I should go get my HR strap from the trash!)

Page 285
Cadence Drills:
“Ultimately you are hoping power and heart rate remain low at the
higher cadence so you can become more efficient at harder efforts.
Warm up with cadence in the 90-95 rpm range. Start the main set with
six 1- minute on, 1-minute off fast pedaling cadence efforts. Ride 10
minutes easy, then do two 5-minute efforts, trying to get wattage to
FTP and hold it there. RPE should be 5; keep cadence at 100 rpm.”

Page 287
Tempo: Basic Ride 1
“warm up at a high cadence, 95-105 rpm. Begin a solid 35-minute tempo
effort. Keep the pressure on and have fun – this is a fast but
achievable pace. Keep your cadence in the 90-95 RPM range and make
sure you get into a nice breathing rhythm”

(Wait, didn’t freddie say cadence is a ‘red herring’? Didn’t andy say
‘there’s no reason to measure cadence’ in response to Hunters
assertion that ‘cadence plays a vital role in maximizing power’? Good
thing I haven’t posted my cadence sensors on Ebay yet!)

**
As a point of reference, every single one of the workouts listed in
the 30 page workout section has an accompanying chart showing the
percentage of FTHR one should look for.

These are just a few of the dozen+ examples of how ‘irrelevant’
cadence and heart rate are in fitness and race training. They are so
‘irrelevant’, that andy lists specific cadence numbers and HR metrics
for certain workouts, actually referencing to _both_ heart rate and
cadence in the cadence drill.

So, what have we learned?

We’ve learned that – despite andy and freddies assertions to the
contrary, HR and cadence _are_ in fact valuable training tools.

Freddie likes to toss out the canard that “cadence is a red herring”.
He does this with a simple schoolboy trick of showing that torque can
be derived from power, therefore the constituents of _proper_ torque
measurement that necessarily involve the length and angular velocity
of the torque arm (pedal crank) are rendered moot. The resultant claim
being “cadence is irrelevant”.

Well, as we can see from Coggans book and the research papers I linked
in the iBike pro thread, cadence is _quite_ relevant.

Actually, the red herring here is torque. Freddie makes a cute little
chart with as much useful training information as my 6-year-old
niece’s crayola excursions. This chart tells us absolutely nothing
that power doesn’t. Why? Because deriving torque from power is
completely linear. All freddie is doing by presenting us with derived
torque is to show us that he knows middle-school algebra, xy = z.

If you’ve been following the iBike Power meter thread, you’ll note
that I linked peer-reviewed research to support my positions. Did we
get any peer-reviewed research from andy or freddie supporting their
positions? No. We got a school-boy math trick from freddie and andys
rather condescending dismissal of his colleagues work. *Nothing beyond
opinions.

Andy and his pathetic little sycophant freddie have been busy
proffering dubious and unsupportable proposition using net bullying
tactics to drive skeptics away, freddie going so far as to laughably
brag about making people his RBT bitches. Well, that hasn’t worked
with me, and I think I’ve proven quite conclusively how complete full
of **** he is.

I’ve also revealed something very curious about andy – he claims HR
and cadence are completely irrelevant, yet he wrote a book that uses
the two metrics as targeted training metrics. There is some _serious_
dysfunction going on there.

Andy will backpedal his position like he did when I pointed out he
used HRPO as a metric when performing his Dmax test. Freddie will
simply dismiss the whole thing with no supportable evidence (other
than his useless torque plot) and most likely make another mother
joke. I’ll leave it up to them to try to explain to everyone here why
they are right with no supporting evidence other than their own
bloviated sense of self-worth, in the face of mountains of peer-
reviewed evidence to the contrary, including andy’s own published
work.

Personally, I don’t care. Freddie is a useless internet baboon whose
opinion carries as much credibility as...well,.. a baboon. Andy has
some bizarre issues going on, and it’s really sad to see someone with
so much potential that has contributed so much to the field descending
into some dark mental state. It’s also quite ironic, because while
Andy and I have agreed on nothing here, *I fully agree with the
philosophy in his book.

So I’ll leave them the last word. I need to attend to my life. I’ve
wasted far too much time in this little internet cesspool. Unlike
certain others who camp out here daily using this venue as an outlet
to vent their frustrations over their empty vapid lives, I actually
have a life that doesn’t require validation by winning newsgroup
arguments. I’ll be riding my bike for the next three days. I’m
guessing that will be more than freddie has done this year. I really
see no use in further participation here.


Logic isn't your strong suit, huh?
 




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