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  #51  
Old October 6th 03, 05:14 AM
Jose Rizal
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Posts: n/a
Default cleaning fun...(not)

Deep Freud Moors:

Jose Rizal wrote in message
news
Deep Freud Moors:

Jose Rizal wrote in message
link.net...
Deep Freud Moors:

With regards to your bearings, if they are well packed with grease,
getting
water in should not be a big problem. The primary purpose of the

grease
is
not lubrication, but to keep dirt and water out.

Not true. In bearings the primary purpose of grease is lubrication.
The primary purpose of seals is keeping water and dirt out.


Yes true. Grease is grease, and not designed as a lubricant. Oil is

designed
as a lubricant, grease is not. It does treat the metal surfaces to a

degree,
but any lubricating effect disappears quickly.


And where did you get this little gem of a myth from? You may think you
have a new contrary insight into something that's been established by
tribology science hundreds of years ago, but I think you're just making
it up. Read any basic tribology book.


You were the one that claimed it to not be true. Provide a couple of cites,
and I might just come around to your view.


For the principle behind grease lubrication, type "tribology" on
Amazon.com, and you'll get many references. Pick up ANY book on
tribology from your nearest tertiary institution library. For evidence
of grease as good lubricant, talk to any engineer or engineering
student. Talk to any mechanic. In fact, talk to anyone who's ever used
grease as lubricant. I'm not going to do the work for you. Your claim
that grease does not lubricate is what's ridiculously false.

When you pack your bearings with grease, it gets pushed out of the way

of
the bearings after a couple of turns, and does not return due to its
viscosity.


So why do you think your bearings remain lubricated when only grease is
ever applied by the manufacturer/mechanic?

Grease consists of oil and carrier compound. The carrier is thick and
while the bulk of it may be pushed out of the way of the bearing/race
interface, the oil remains between the contact patch and the carrier/oil
compound which stays around the path ensures a steady supply of
lubricant.


That is what I would constitute as "treating" the metal surface.


You meant nothing of the sort and you know it. You're wrong in any
case. "Treating the metal surface" implies changing the property of the
metal, such as anodizing or any process that alters the structure of the
metal. Applying oil or grease does not "treat" the metal because it
does not change its basic structure.

You have not answered the question: why do bearings remain lubricated
when grease is applied, when according to your theory, the grease will
be pushed out by the bearings?

The driest part of the bearing assembly is usually the surface
where the bearings run.


Please. The bearing/race contact path is not in fact dry, but
lubricated with a thin film provided by the grease. Even with a
tremendous load the film remains; the only way to eliminate the
lubricant is to wash it away with solvent or stop replenishing it, in
which case it may dry up eventually. Grease ensures adequate lubricant
supply for a longer time than mere oil.


I said "driest". I did not say dry.


Semantics do not provide you with any refuge. The greased bearing/race
interface isn't "dry", "drier", or "driest". Oil exists between the
interface even when loaded to such an extent that the race surface is
deformed.

Yes the grease treats the metal causing
it to last longer.


No, grease does not treat the metal, it provides lubrication.
Lubrication lasts longer when using grease because the oil carrier that
sticks around keeps an oil supply to the interface, which would
otherwise just run off.

Whether or not this constitutes "lubrication" is up for
debate, but bugger all of the grease hangs around the bearing contact
surfaces.


It's not up for debate, grease provides lubrication for the metal
contact areas in greased systems. It's obvious you know nothing about
basic tribology, so brush up on the basics before you spout myths about
lubrication.

Whilst that surface is clean, there are no probs.
Basic wheels nowadays are not sealed either, but have donut-shaped

little
caps, which are designed to work in conjunction with the grease to keep

dirt
and water out.


Grease as water and dirt barrier is a secondary characteristic, not
primary.


Utter bull****. Dirt will kill bearings MUCH faster than an absence of
grease. Clean dry bearings will run for a long time, dirty bearings (even
when greased) will not.


Don't change the subject. Grease's secondary property as water and dirt
barrier is what's been pointed out, NOT whether dirt is destructive to
bearings.

Grease in fact attracts dirt. It's not a substitute for
seals. If it were so, seals for bearings or any rotating machinery will
not be necessary.


That is why both seals and grease are used.


Stop making things up. If you have references to your dubious claims,
provide them. On the other hand, it's quite easy to check the falsity
of your claims from a multitude of easily accessible resources.

Ads
  #52  
Old October 6th 03, 05:14 AM
Jose Rizal
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default cleaning fun...(not)

Deep Freud Moors:

Jose Rizal wrote in message
news
Deep Freud Moors:

Jose Rizal wrote in message
link.net...
Deep Freud Moors:

With regards to your bearings, if they are well packed with grease,
getting
water in should not be a big problem. The primary purpose of the

grease
is
not lubrication, but to keep dirt and water out.

Not true. In bearings the primary purpose of grease is lubrication.
The primary purpose of seals is keeping water and dirt out.


Yes true. Grease is grease, and not designed as a lubricant. Oil is

designed
as a lubricant, grease is not. It does treat the metal surfaces to a

degree,
but any lubricating effect disappears quickly.


And where did you get this little gem of a myth from? You may think you
have a new contrary insight into something that's been established by
tribology science hundreds of years ago, but I think you're just making
it up. Read any basic tribology book.


You were the one that claimed it to not be true. Provide a couple of cites,
and I might just come around to your view.


For the principle behind grease lubrication, type "tribology" on
Amazon.com, and you'll get many references. Pick up ANY book on
tribology from your nearest tertiary institution library. For evidence
of grease as good lubricant, talk to any engineer or engineering
student. Talk to any mechanic. In fact, talk to anyone who's ever used
grease as lubricant. I'm not going to do the work for you. Your claim
that grease does not lubricate is what's ridiculously false.

When you pack your bearings with grease, it gets pushed out of the way

of
the bearings after a couple of turns, and does not return due to its
viscosity.


So why do you think your bearings remain lubricated when only grease is
ever applied by the manufacturer/mechanic?

Grease consists of oil and carrier compound. The carrier is thick and
while the bulk of it may be pushed out of the way of the bearing/race
interface, the oil remains between the contact patch and the carrier/oil
compound which stays around the path ensures a steady supply of
lubricant.


That is what I would constitute as "treating" the metal surface.


You meant nothing of the sort and you know it. You're wrong in any
case. "Treating the metal surface" implies changing the property of the
metal, such as anodizing or any process that alters the structure of the
metal. Applying oil or grease does not "treat" the metal because it
does not change its basic structure.

You have not answered the question: why do bearings remain lubricated
when grease is applied, when according to your theory, the grease will
be pushed out by the bearings?

The driest part of the bearing assembly is usually the surface
where the bearings run.


Please. The bearing/race contact path is not in fact dry, but
lubricated with a thin film provided by the grease. Even with a
tremendous load the film remains; the only way to eliminate the
lubricant is to wash it away with solvent or stop replenishing it, in
which case it may dry up eventually. Grease ensures adequate lubricant
supply for a longer time than mere oil.


I said "driest". I did not say dry.


Semantics do not provide you with any refuge. The greased bearing/race
interface isn't "dry", "drier", or "driest". Oil exists between the
interface even when loaded to such an extent that the race surface is
deformed.

Yes the grease treats the metal causing
it to last longer.


No, grease does not treat the metal, it provides lubrication.
Lubrication lasts longer when using grease because the oil carrier that
sticks around keeps an oil supply to the interface, which would
otherwise just run off.

Whether or not this constitutes "lubrication" is up for
debate, but bugger all of the grease hangs around the bearing contact
surfaces.


It's not up for debate, grease provides lubrication for the metal
contact areas in greased systems. It's obvious you know nothing about
basic tribology, so brush up on the basics before you spout myths about
lubrication.

Whilst that surface is clean, there are no probs.
Basic wheels nowadays are not sealed either, but have donut-shaped

little
caps, which are designed to work in conjunction with the grease to keep

dirt
and water out.


Grease as water and dirt barrier is a secondary characteristic, not
primary.


Utter bull****. Dirt will kill bearings MUCH faster than an absence of
grease. Clean dry bearings will run for a long time, dirty bearings (even
when greased) will not.


Don't change the subject. Grease's secondary property as water and dirt
barrier is what's been pointed out, NOT whether dirt is destructive to
bearings.

Grease in fact attracts dirt. It's not a substitute for
seals. If it were so, seals for bearings or any rotating machinery will
not be necessary.


That is why both seals and grease are used.


Stop making things up. If you have references to your dubious claims,
provide them. On the other hand, it's quite easy to check the falsity
of your claims from a multitude of easily accessible resources.

  #53  
Old October 6th 03, 05:27 AM
Jose Rizal
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default cleaning fun...(not)

Mike:

OK guys, grease is definitely a lubricant, but what exactly is its
effect in a bike wheel hub?


Grease is basically a source of oil for the lubricated system. It is
made up essentially of two compounds, oil and thickener (or carrier).
Either or both can have additives.

The carrier carries the oil and releases it at the appropriate
occassion, when the bond between the oil and carrier is broken. This
occurs at particular temperatures and/or pressures. The carrier can
also act as a lubricant by sticking to the surfaces of the contacting
elements. This carrier film eventually wears away and must be
replenished, either by more oil or more carrier. Since grease (ie both
carrier and oil) doesn't flow readily, most of the lubrication is
accomplished by the oil that is released from the carrier.
  #54  
Old October 6th 03, 05:27 AM
Jose Rizal
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default cleaning fun...(not)

Mike:

OK guys, grease is definitely a lubricant, but what exactly is its
effect in a bike wheel hub?


Grease is basically a source of oil for the lubricated system. It is
made up essentially of two compounds, oil and thickener (or carrier).
Either or both can have additives.

The carrier carries the oil and releases it at the appropriate
occassion, when the bond between the oil and carrier is broken. This
occurs at particular temperatures and/or pressures. The carrier can
also act as a lubricant by sticking to the surfaces of the contacting
elements. This carrier film eventually wears away and must be
replenished, either by more oil or more carrier. Since grease (ie both
carrier and oil) doesn't flow readily, most of the lubrication is
accomplished by the oil that is released from the carrier.
  #55  
Old October 6th 03, 05:55 AM
Theo Bekkers
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default cleaning fun...(not)

"Deep Freud Moors" wrote

Yes true. Grease is grease, and not designed as a lubricant. Oil is

designed
as a lubricant, grease is not. It does treat the metal surfaces to a

degree,
but any lubricating effect disappears quickly.

When you pack your bearings with grease, it gets pushed out of the way of
the bearings after a couple of turns, and does not return due to its
viscosity. The driest part of the bearing assembly is usually the surface
where the bearings run. Whilst that surface is clean, there are no probs.
Basic wheels nowadays are not sealed either, but have donut-shaped little
caps, which are designed to work in conjunction with the grease to keep

dirt
and water out.


What the? Why the hell do they grease wheel bearings in cars then?

Theo


  #56  
Old October 6th 03, 05:55 AM
Theo Bekkers
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default cleaning fun...(not)

"Deep Freud Moors" wrote

Yes true. Grease is grease, and not designed as a lubricant. Oil is

designed
as a lubricant, grease is not. It does treat the metal surfaces to a

degree,
but any lubricating effect disappears quickly.

When you pack your bearings with grease, it gets pushed out of the way of
the bearings after a couple of turns, and does not return due to its
viscosity. The driest part of the bearing assembly is usually the surface
where the bearings run. Whilst that surface is clean, there are no probs.
Basic wheels nowadays are not sealed either, but have donut-shaped little
caps, which are designed to work in conjunction with the grease to keep

dirt
and water out.


What the? Why the hell do they grease wheel bearings in cars then?

Theo


  #57  
Old October 6th 03, 06:20 AM
Deep Freud Moors
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default cleaning fun...(not)

Theo Bekkers wrote in message
...
"Deep Freud Moors" wrote

Yes true. Grease is grease, and not designed as a lubricant. Oil is

designed
as a lubricant, grease is not. It does treat the metal surfaces to a

degree,
but any lubricating effect disappears quickly.

When you pack your bearings with grease, it gets pushed out of the way

of
the bearings after a couple of turns, and does not return due to its
viscosity. The driest part of the bearing assembly is usually the

surface
where the bearings run. Whilst that surface is clean, there are no

probs.
Basic wheels nowadays are not sealed either, but have donut-shaped

little
caps, which are designed to work in conjunction with the grease to keep

dirt
and water out.


What the? Why the hell do they grease wheel bearings in cars then?


Exactly the same reason of course.
---
DFM


  #58  
Old October 6th 03, 06:20 AM
Deep Freud Moors
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default cleaning fun...(not)

Theo Bekkers wrote in message
...
"Deep Freud Moors" wrote

Yes true. Grease is grease, and not designed as a lubricant. Oil is

designed
as a lubricant, grease is not. It does treat the metal surfaces to a

degree,
but any lubricating effect disappears quickly.

When you pack your bearings with grease, it gets pushed out of the way

of
the bearings after a couple of turns, and does not return due to its
viscosity. The driest part of the bearing assembly is usually the

surface
where the bearings run. Whilst that surface is clean, there are no

probs.
Basic wheels nowadays are not sealed either, but have donut-shaped

little
caps, which are designed to work in conjunction with the grease to keep

dirt
and water out.


What the? Why the hell do they grease wheel bearings in cars then?


Exactly the same reason of course.
---
DFM


  #59  
Old October 6th 03, 06:45 AM
Steve Reynolds
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default cleaning fun...(not)

On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 14:09:33 GMT, Steve Reynolds
wrote:

Want to know how to clean your chain see:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/chains.html


Forgot to mention in my last post.

The plastic jars that you buy Goulburn Valley fruit from the
supermarket in, are far better than the coke bottle that Sheldon
mentions in his article. The large diameter lid makes it much easier
to retrieve the chain from the jar, far easier than fishing around in
the coke bottle trying to hook the chain with an old spoke.

7,000 kilometres on my roadie's SRAM PC89R chain so far, with no
measurable wear after maintaining it using a Sheldon's method.

SR




  #60  
Old October 6th 03, 06:45 AM
Steve Reynolds
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default cleaning fun...(not)

On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 14:09:33 GMT, Steve Reynolds
wrote:

Want to know how to clean your chain see:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/chains.html


Forgot to mention in my last post.

The plastic jars that you buy Goulburn Valley fruit from the
supermarket in, are far better than the coke bottle that Sheldon
mentions in his article. The large diameter lid makes it much easier
to retrieve the chain from the jar, far easier than fishing around in
the coke bottle trying to hook the chain with an old spoke.

7,000 kilometres on my roadie's SRAM PC89R chain so far, with no
measurable wear after maintaining it using a Sheldon's method.

SR




 




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