TdF and recumbents

Clive George wrote:
"JCrowe" wrote in message
...
Clive George wrote:
I've not seen pros getting off and walking in the Alps or Pyrenees - I've
seen it on climbs in the UK though...
Out of academic interest, where? I've cycled fully loaded in the UK
and though I wanted to a few times in Wales, I never got off and walked.
There are a few very steep, relatively short climbs I remember as being
effective at getting the heartrate up, but they only lasted a short
time. I also remember some bodacious headwinds.

Rosedale chimney (North Yorks moors) was the one I most remember. Can't
remember if it's the steepest hill you're allowed to ride up in the UK - but
it's certainly close. At a guess, you're not touring with a double chainring
and corncob cassette :-)

Definitely not a double chainring or corncob casette ( it was a bit
of time before casette/freehubs even existed). But, I was no TdF class
athlete either. IIRC, my lowest gear was 28 in the front and either
32 or 36 in the rear......Suntour Winner freewheels....and Shimano
Biopace chainrings. Never a failure either.

(Harlech in Wales has one which is marked at 40%. That's pretty darned
steep. It's no entry at the bottom, but since it's a very quiet road you can
just give it a go. We couldn't make it in one go - stopped for breath half
way up, and that's on the tandem with some pretty low gears).

40%...that's incredible. Climbing on a tandem is more problematic
than on a single. Even with my absolute most compatible stoker and the
lowest granny gear, there were times when I had to abandon the climb on
my tandem....by the way, does the Cyclist Touring Club still exist in
the UK? They were invaluable in helping me plan my various tours back
in the day.

cheers,
clive

"JCrowe" wrote in message
...

40%...that's incredible. Climbing on a tandem is more problematic
than on a single.

Actually in this case we did better than our friend on the single - the long
wheelbase helps a huge amount when it gets that steep.

Even with my absolute most compatible stoker and the
lowest granny gear, there were times when I had to abandon the climb on
my tandem....by the way, does the Cyclist Touring Club still exist in
the UK? They were invaluable in helping me plan my various tours back
in the day.

Yup, still going strong, still doing great stuff. They're now called the
CTC, to reflect the fact that they do more than just touring these days -
they're involved in campaigning etc too, eg their recent success at getting
the dreadful draft of the highway code changed.

cheers,
clive

On Thu, 31 Jul 2008 08:40:10 +0100, Peter Clinch
wrote:

wrote:

Of course, if you can add a full fairing to a recumbent, you can add a
partial fairing to an upright and ride around just fine.

Despite what's been said in this thread, motorcycles do it all the
time.

Different game: you have more speed, so there's more benefit to the
rider from comfort of keeping the airstream and accompanying bugs and
rain off them, you don't have any weight issues to speak of, and there
is no need to make room for pedalling action.

But no one bothers to add fairings to uprights, since most people
interested enough in such speed tricks are also interested in racing,
where fairings are forbidden.

The most common partial fairings on motorbikes are for comfort, not
speed. i.e., all motor scooters.

In IHPVA competition they're not forbidden, so if there was mileage to
be had from faired uprights over faired 'bents you'd see a lot more of
them than you do.

And in the real world outside racing, with no rules and no notion that
racing defines what's best, uprights outnumber recumbents more than a
thousand to one, even after about a century of recumbent evolution.

But given the history that just doesn't prove anything. Windows
desktops outnumber Linux desktops by orders of magnitude, so Windows
must be miles better, or a de-facto monopoly actually does a lot for
market position?

But there's no law against starting a no-holds-barred anything-goes
bicycle-race organization to find out what's "best".

That'll be the IHPVA. Their record sheet is dominated by recumbents.

Just a lack of interest. A few armchair enthusiasts can't produce the
Tour de France.

But they can produce 81 mph undrafted.

Pete.

Dear Pete,

Well, yes, the Varna Diablo II can produce 81 mph undrafted and is the
"best" in some sense . . .

At the billiard-table flat Battle Mountain highway.

With an assisted start and a 5-mile run-up.

For 200 meters.

With no wind.

If we want to go _over_ 81 mph on a bicycle, then the "best" becomes
an upright behind a pace car. Here's Marquet in 1937 at 86 mph:

http://imageevent.com/dernysportuk/s...=0&w=4&s=0&z=2

***

Neither "best" has shown much practical application for events like
the Tour de France.

Small groups of faired recumbents do tour, but I don't think that they
try to compete against each other.

Motor-paced bicycle competition, on the other hand, was quite popular
in city-to-city races in Europe.

For example, Paris-Roubaix used motor-pacing for the first few years.
The 12 km/h drop in average speed in 1901 marks the ban on motor and
tandem pacing after the fast but crash-riddled 1900 race:
http://www.bikeraceinfo.com/classics...x/prindex.html
http://www.bikeraceinfo.com/classics...ix/pr1900.html

Here's 1949 motor-pacing in Paris-Bordeaux:
http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/...ca_BP.jpg.html

Putting the gas tank on the handlebar improves the drafting and allows
the pacer to pedal the contraption, but the real advantage is the
easily visible advertising for a certain French periodical.

Darn that L'Equipe upright de facto monopoly!

Once we sue Henri Desgranges, the wicked Bill Gates of the two-wheeled
world, we can put everyone on the "best" recumbents!

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

On Thu, 31 Jul 2008 08:44:07 +0100, Peter Clinch
wrote:

wrote:

Do you know if any recumbents climb those European grades?

If you make a trike with low enough gearing your climbing limit is tyre
traction.

Trikes aren't necessarily slow: I perhaps have to remind you /again/
that the 800+ mile End to End record in the UK is held on a recumbent
trike.

Pete.

Dear Pete,

Two wheels, please. It's rec.bicycling.tech.

:-)

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

On Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:27:20 +0100, "Clive George"
wrote:

"JCrowe" wrote in message
.. .
Peter Clinch wrote:
wrote:

Do you know if any recumbents climb those European grades?

If you make a trike with low enough gearing your climbing limit is tyre
traction.

Trikes aren't necessarily slow: I perhaps have to remind you /again/
that the 800+ mile End to End record in the UK is held on a recumbent
trike.

Yeah but the highest point in the UK is Ben Nevis, right? And that's
less than 5000 ft. Not disputing the validity of recumbent trikes, but
there's a significant difference between Ben Nevis and L'Alpe Huez....
YMMV....

I've not seen pros getting off and walking in the Alps or Pyrenees - I've
seen it on climbs in the UK though...

Dear Clive,

Every summer, a simple rule against derailleurs lets me enjoy watching
professionals pushing their bicycles up beautiful European passes:

Octavio Lapize strolling up the Tourmalet, 1910 TDF
http://magliarosa.files.wordpress.co.../08/lapize.jpg
http://www.pyrenees-passion.info/ima...me/lapize2.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...taveLapize.jpg

Garrigou striding toward victory, 1911 TDF
http://i33.tinypic.com/2gxh11z.jpg

Buysse relaxing in the Pyrenees:

http://bp0.blogger.com/_XWByO5zAGdk/...h/File0009.jpg

Three members of the peloton charging up the Tourmalet, 1920 TDF:
http://i35.tinypic.com/fwq1hg.jpg

Cheers,

H. Desgrange

In article ,
"Clive George" wrote:

"JCrowe" wrote in message
...
Peter Clinch wrote:
wrote:

Do you know if any recumbents climb those European grades?

If you make a trike with low enough gearing your climbing limit is tyre
traction.

Trikes aren't necessarily slow: I perhaps have to remind you /again/
that the 800+ mile End to End record in the UK is held on a recumbent
trike.

Yeah but the highest point in the UK is Ben Nevis, right? And that's
less than 5000 ft. Not disputing the validity of recumbent trikes, but
there's a significant difference between Ben Nevis and L'Alpe Huez....
YMMV....

I've not seen pros getting off and walking in the Alps or Pyrenees - I've
seen it on climbs in the UK though...

What is "it"?

--
Michael Press

"Michael Press" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Clive George" wrote:

"JCrowe" wrote in message
...
Peter Clinch wrote:
wrote:

Do you know if any recumbents climb those European grades?

If you make a trike with low enough gearing your climbing limit is
tyre
traction.

Trikes aren't necessarily slow: I perhaps have to remind you /again/
that the 800+ mile End to End record in the UK is held on a recumbent
trike.

Yeah but the highest point in the UK is Ben Nevis, right? And that's
less than 5000 ft. Not disputing the validity of recumbent trikes, but
there's a significant difference between Ben Nevis and L'Alpe Huez....
YMMV....

I've not seen pros getting off and walking in the Alps or Pyrenees - I've
seen it on climbs in the UK though...

What is "it"?

Genuine question, or just ****ing about?

On Jul 31, 2:14*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 31 Jul 2008 08:40:10 +0100, Peter Clinch



wrote:
wrote:

Of course, if you can add a full fairing to a recumbent, you can add a
partial fairing to an upright and ride around just fine.

Despite what's been said in this thread, motorcycles do it all the
time.

Different game: you have more speed, so there's more benefit to the
rider from comfort of keeping the airstream and accompanying bugs and
rain off them, you don't have any weight issues to speak of, and there
is no need to make room for pedalling action.

But no one bothers to add fairings to uprights, since most people
interested enough in such speed tricks are also interested in racing,
where fairings are forbidden.

The most common partial fairings on motorbikes are for comfort, not
speed. *i.e., all motor scooters.

In IHPVA competition they're not forbidden, so if there was mileage to
be had from faired uprights over faired 'bents you'd see a lot more of
them than you do.

And in the real world outside racing, with no rules and no notion that
racing defines what's best, uprights outnumber recumbents more than a
thousand to one, even after about a century of recumbent evolution.

But given the history that just doesn't prove anything. *Windows
desktops outnumber Linux desktops by orders of magnitude, so Windows
must be miles better, or a de-facto monopoly actually does a lot for
market position?

But there's no law against starting a no-holds-barred anything-goes
bicycle-race organization to find out what's "best".

That'll be the IHPVA. *Their record sheet is dominated by recumbents.

Just a lack of interest. A few armchair enthusiasts can't produce the
Tour de France.

But they can produce 81 mph undrafted.

Pete.

Dear Pete,

Well, yes, the Varna Diablo II can produce 81 mph undrafted and is the
"best" in some sense . . .

At the billiard-table flat Battle Mountain highway.

With an assisted start and a 5-mile run-up.

For 200 meters.

With no wind.

If we want to go _over_ 81 mph on a bicycle, then the "best" becomes
an upright behind a pace car. Here's Marquet in 1937 at 86 mph:

http://imageevent.com/dernysportuk/s...&n=1&m=-1&c=2&...

***

Actually John Howard did much better than that and the highest speed
ever achieved on a bicycle is 268.831 km/h (167.043 mph), by Fred
Rompelberg (The Netherlands) at Bonneville Salt Flats, Utah, USA, on
October 3, 1995. His record attempt was greatly assisted by the
slipstream from his lead vehicle.

http://www.fredrompelberg.com/en/htm...erg/record.asp

Neither "best" has shown much practical application for events like
the Tour de France.

Small groups of faired recumbents do tour, but I don't think that they
try to compete against each other.

Motor-paced bicycle competition, on the other hand, was quite popular
in city-to-city races in Europe.

For example, Paris-Roubaix used motor-pacing for the first few years.
The 12 km/h drop in average speed in 1901 marks the ban on motor and
tandem pacing after the fast but crash-riddled 1900 race:
*http://www.bikeraceinfo.com/classics...x/prindex.html
*http://www.bikeraceinfo.com/classics...ix/pr1900.html

Here's 1949 motor-pacing in Paris-Bordeaux:
*http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/...ca_BP.jpg.html

Putting the gas tank on the handlebar improves the drafting and allows
the pacer to pedal the contraption, but the real advantage is the
easily visible advertising for a certain French periodical.

Darn that L'Equipe upright de facto monopoly!

Once we sue Henri Desgranges, the wicked Bill Gates of the two-wheeled
world, we can put everyone on the "best" recumbents!

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

On Thu, 31 Jul 2008 17:01:16 -0700 (PDT), JimmyMac
wrote:

On Jul 31, 2:14*pm, wrote:

[snip]

If we want to go _over_ 81 mph on a bicycle, then the "best" becomes
an upright behind a pace car. Here's Marquet in 1937 at 86 mph:

http://imageevent.com/dernysportuk/s...&n=1&m=-1&c=2&...

***

Actually John Howard did much better than that and the highest speed
ever achieved on a bicycle is 268.831 km/h (167.043 mph), by Fred
Rompelberg (The Netherlands) at Bonneville Salt Flats, Utah, USA, on
October 3, 1995. His record attempt was greatly assisted by the
slipstream from his lead vehicle.

http://www.fredrompelberg.com/en/htm.../record.aspgel

[snip]

Dear Jimmy,

Actually, I had no idea . . .

http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q...=2008&safe=off

http://groups.google.com/groups/sear...net&saf e=off

http://groups.google.com/groups/sear...net&safe=of f

:-)

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

In article ,
"Clive George" wrote:

"Michael Press" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Clive George" wrote:

"JCrowe" wrote in message
...
Peter Clinch wrote:
wrote:

Do you know if any recumbents climb those European grades?

If you make a trike with low enough gearing your climbing limit is
tyre
traction.

Trikes aren't necessarily slow: I perhaps have to remind you /again/
that the 800+ mile End to End record in the UK is held on a recumbent
trike.

Yeah but the highest point in the UK is Ben Nevis, right? And that's
less than 5000 ft. Not disputing the validity of recumbent trikes, but
there's a significant difference between Ben Nevis and L'Alpe Huez....
YMMV....

I've not seen pros getting off and walking in the Alps or Pyrenees - I've
seen it on climbs in the UK though...

What is "it"?

Genuine question, or just ****ing about?

Pros getting off and walking climbs in the UK?

--
Michael Press