Why the pros are slowing down.

On Jul 30, 10:58Â*pm, Joe Riel wrote:
DirtRoadie writes:
When you read Sheldon's post found (in its entirety) at
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...ae61efd0f766ea
where he said

•Easiery entry (a BIG plus on a fixed gear.)
•Better ground crearance. [Damn, I never knew he was Japanese]

[edited]

... for the past
Â*several years I've been firmly in the SPD camp. Â*SPDs beat platforms
on the Â*first two points hands down.

At the risk---nay, certainty---of extending this kerfuffle long past its
expiration date, that post of Sheldon's, like the one Frank posted, is
not entirely clear. Â*At first it seems to be, but one could argue, given
that *fixies* was the topic of the thread and post, that Sheldon was
specifically referring to entry into pedals on a *fixie*.

I haven't had the pleasure of riding a fixie, but assume that SPDs are
indeed easier to engage than Lyotards, on a fixie. Â*Anyone with
experience? Â*That doesn't necessarily mean they are easier on a standard
bike. Â*If there is a difference [of ease of entry on a standard bike] it
is presumably minor.

If ease of entry, fixie or otherwise, is the main criterion for pedal
selection, then flat pedals are the way to go. Â*The BMX racers seem to
do pretty well with them, albeit for short duration. Â*They can pump out
some impressive rpms and, presumably, bursts of power.

--
Joe Riel

Noted. Remarkable that anyone with any technical credential would be
trying to parse Sheldon's words to reach an understanding.
Please have Frank describe his experience with getting into Mod 23's
at 10â—¦ 20â—¦ 30â—¦ 40â—¦ 50â—¦ 60â—¦ 70â—¦ 80â—¦ and 90â—¦ either while the crank is
moving (inherent with fixed gear) or while it is stationary.

I will respond with the same result as specifically noted today while
riding double sided SPD's. But briefly summarized - regardless of
crank orientation, you put your foot on the pedal and go. In or out,
regardless of crank orientation, crank movement; with little issue of
pedal pressure.
If you or Frank want to debate the semantics of what Sheldon clearly
said, fine, we'll find a medium to channel him. I'm sure Sheldon will
get a kick out of it.
But if you want to work with real world situations, real riders and
real data, I volunteer. But no ****ing way will I do it in Bum-****-
Ohio.
DR

On Jul 30, 11:04*pm, wrote:
On Monday, July 30, 2012 10:44:26 PM UTC-4, Dan O wrote:
On Jul 30, 7:07 pm, Frank Krygowski

wrote:

Jay Beattie wrote:

On Jul 30, 2:25 pm, Duane *wrote:

On 7/30/2012 12:35 PM, DirtRoadie wrote:

On Jul 30, 9:59 am, Frank

wrote:

DirtRoadie wrote:

On Jul 29, 7:19 pm, Frank * * *wrote:

Well, that's what's being implied! Heck, I stated my practical reasons

for not preferring SPD, and got hammered.

Frank you got hammered for implicitly lying about your [non]

experience with SPD's and for expressly lying about Sheldon having

agreed with you in an email. Sorry dude you were busted. Don't forget

it. I won't.

Sheldon Brown: *"Nothing else is as easy to get into as the Lyotards,

though." *Posted _after_ he'd already said he prefers SPDs overall.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...615a0597fcc858

--

- Frank Krygowski

Yes, Frank we know how your delusions *have you cherry picking words

and ignoring/deleting context.

That why I previously had to provide another link to clear things up.

Rather than relying on trying to force the context into something it

isn't, read:

* *http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...ae61efd0f766ea

Where Sheldon specifically referred to several models of platforms

* *including Mod 23's *and wrote :

* * "SPDs beat platforms [including mods 23's] *on ...[ease of entry]

hands down."

Sheldon did make a typo and refer to "Easiery entry"

Hey, Frank as long as your are intent upon sharing your delusions, how

about *digging up that email that you claim Sheldon sent you:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...4f31bb2ce3a551

Can't find it? Gee, imagine that!

How many types of pedals have come out since Sheldon left us? *Do you

think he would have tried any of them? *I can't say that I knew him but

I've read his stuff for years and I have the impression that he would

use what works better even if it was new.

The dude liked old French bikes and had a fondness for their quirks,

so the fact he dumped Lyotards for SPDs says that he really, really

liked them. *I don't think he liked them because they were harder to

get in to -- not unless he was a masochist. Hey, he liked old French

bikes, so maybe he was a masochist!

A couple points: *First, he said he liked SPDs best overall, and that

they were better than any platform pedals then available. *That's in the

Dec. 30, 2001 post that DirtRoadie keeps bringing up.

HOWEVER, in the Dec 4 2004 post that I recalled (the one athttp://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/fbfd7b6d5b8a35d7)

Sheldon said "Nothing else is as easy to get into as the Lyotards,

though." *And even if DR is confused on this point, Dec. 4, 2004 was

actually AFTER Dec. 30, 2001.

See? *You're *still* doing it!

Oh, and in the Dec. 30, 2001 post he closed by saying "MY CURRENT ADVICE

IS TO USE WHATEVER PEDALS YOU ARE MOST USED TO AND MOST COMFORTABLE

WITH. The ability to engage the pedal quickly while it is in motion is

the main issue with pedals for fixed gear use." *[Emphasis mine.] *It

sounds like he would not call a person a fool for using non-SPD pedals,

guys.

Did you not suggest that people (sheeple) choose SPD for foolish

reasons?

Not at all. *I just suggested that non-SPD worked better for me, based on my priorities.

- Frank Krygowski

Apologies for any blank responses.
Frank, you have established a platform to acknowledge the truth that
you have denied, kicking and screaming, all along.

So. True or false-
"Lyotard mod 23 's work well for me based upon my priorities and my
experience, although I have never used double sided Shimano SPD's or
similar pedals ."

That about cover it doesn't it?
Thanks,
DR

On Jul 30, 10:41*pm, "Tom $herman (-_-)" ""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net" wrote:
On 7/30/2012 8:40 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote: Dan O wrote:

Rolling Stone, OTOH, usually has worthwhile articles every other week
on average (you might want to spend your magazine skimming time more
wisely). *The recent Charlie Sheen article was exceptionally
insightful for about the first half, but then kind of lost it in the
second half (I won't go so far as to say fell apart, though I felt
like it sort of did).

I think the most I've read on Charlie Sheen was about two column inches
at a time, and that was long ago. *That stuff just doesn't interest me.

Charlie who?

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W
Post Free or Die!

Ultimately, it's not particularly important.
Did you ever read this post?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...ae61efd0f766ea
You like (and use) SPD's, right?
DR

DirtRoadie writes:

On Jul 30, 10:58Â*pm, Joe Riel wrote:
DirtRoadie writes:
When you read Sheldon's post found (in its entirety) at
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...ae61efd0f766ea
where he said

•Easiery entry (a BIG plus on a fixed gear.)
•Better ground crearance. [Damn, I never knew he was Japanese]

[edited]

... for the past
Â*several years I've been firmly in the SPD camp. Â*SPDs beat platforms
on the Â*first two points hands down.

At the risk---nay, certainty---of extending this kerfuffle long past its
expiration date, that post of Sheldon's, like the one Frank posted, is
not entirely clear. Â*At first it seems to be, but one could argue, given
that *fixies* was the topic of the thread and post, that Sheldon was
specifically referring to entry into pedals on a *fixie*.

I haven't had the pleasure of riding a fixie, but assume that SPDs are
indeed easier to engage than Lyotards, on a fixie. Â*Anyone with
experience? Â*That doesn't necessarily mean they are easier on a standard
bike. Â*If there is a difference [of ease of entry on a standard bike] it
is presumably minor.

If ease of entry, fixie or otherwise, is the main criterion for pedal
selection, then flat pedals are the way to go. Â*The BMX racers seem to
do pretty well with them, albeit for short duration. Â*They can pump out
some impressive rpms and, presumably, bursts of power.

--
Joe Riel

Noted. Remarkable that anyone with any technical credential would be
trying to parse Sheldon's words to reach an understanding.

I wasn't parsing them so as to determine which is better; I'm happy
using SPDs and wouldn't care if Sheldon had stated that they were the
work of the devil. Rather I was trying to reconcile the two seemingly
disparate quotes. A fruitless exercise, to be sure.

With SPDs I always engage the right foot (my first foot) with the pedal
at the bottom. Don't recall when the left foot usually fully engages,
probably near the bottom of the downstroke.


--
Joe Riel

On Jul 31, 7:36*am, Joe Riel wrote:
DirtRoadie writes:
On Jul 30, 10:58*pm, Joe Riel wrote:
DirtRoadie writes:
When you read Sheldon's post found (in its entirety) at
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...ae61efd0f766ea
where he said

•Easiery entry (a BIG plus on a fixed gear.)
•Better ground crearance. [Damn, I never knew he was Japanese]

[edited]

... for the past
*several years I've been firmly in the SPD camp. *SPDs beat platforms
on the *first two points hands down.

At the risk---nay, certainty---of extending this kerfuffle long past its
expiration date, that post of Sheldon's, like the one Frank posted, is
not entirely clear. *At first it seems to be, but one could argue, given
that *fixies* was the topic of the thread and post, that Sheldon was
specifically referring to entry into pedals on a *fixie*.

I haven't had the pleasure of riding a fixie, but assume that SPDs are
indeed easier to engage than Lyotards, on a fixie. *Anyone with
experience? *That doesn't necessarily mean they are easier on a standard
bike. *If there is a difference [of ease of entry on a standard bike] it
is presumably minor.

If ease of entry, fixie or otherwise, is the main criterion for pedal
selection, then flat pedals are the way to go. *The BMX racers seem to
do pretty well with them, albeit for short duration. *They can pump out
some impressive rpms and, presumably, bursts of power.

--
Joe Riel

Noted. Remarkable that anyone with any technical credential would be
trying to parse Sheldon's words to reach an understanding.

I wasn't parsing them so as to determine which is better; I'm happy
using SPDs and wouldn't care if Sheldon had stated that they were the
work of the devil. *Rather I was trying to reconcile the two seemingly
disparate quotes. *A fruitless exercise, to be sure.

With further experience, his relative appreciation changed.


With SPDs I always engage the right foot (my first foot) with the pedal
at the bottom. *Don't recall when the left foot usually fully engages,
probably near the bottom of the downstroke.

--
Joe Riel

On Tue, 31 Jul 2012 01:44:12 +0000, Ralph Barone wrote:

Too bad ShelbroCo is out of business. I'm thinking clipless gloves;
they keep your hands securely attached to the bars. Easier to enter
then straps and grips. Once properly aligned they will hold your arms
in the optimal position for maximum power delivery. Available with and
without float---the sprinters will prefer the latter.


Nah... We need the clipless helmet, to get rid of those silly chin
straps.

An outstanding idea! Velcro and sideburns. Think of the weight saving.
--
davethedave

On Mon, 30 Jul 2012 22:57:46 -0500, Tom $herman (-_-) wrote:

Nice spread of torque gives it some grunt when riding:
http://www.motorcycle.com/gallery/gallery.php?
g2_view=largephotos.Largephotos&g2_itemId=228878.

You can ask the little **** driving daddy's BMW M3 who tried to out-drag
me and cut me off (2 lanes reducing to 1 lane after an intersection)
just how slow the "Dullsville" is. Or the guy in the Lexus IS250 who
thought he could jump in front of me at a green light.

Quarter-mile runs of ~13.7 seconds / ~100 mph are equal to or better
than most 1980's super-cars (e.g. Ferrari Testarossa) could do.

I was taken for a ride in a mates shiny new BMW M3 once. I parked my ZX7R
at his place. He said I'll take you for a spin and show you what it's got.
He proceeded to give it the beans to the redline through 4 gears. I
turned to him in all seriousness and said...


"Is that it?"


He wasn't impressed.

However slight digression aside. This is a technical bicycle newsgroup
dedicated to the discussion of SPDs vs Leotards or mankinis or whatever.
So lets at least try and keep it on topic eh. You can go boast about
your penis extending Dullsville and CBR in the motorcycle news groups if
you want. No one will be impressed over there though, as you well know.
--
davethedave

On 7/30/2012 9:24 PM, Dan O wrote:
On Jul 30, 4:08 pm, Jay wrote:
On Jul 30, 2:25 pm, Duane wrote:



On 7/30/2012 12:35 PM, DirtRoadie wrote:
On Jul 30, 9:59 am, Frank
wrote:
DirtRoadie wrote:
On Jul 29, 7:19 pm, Frank wrote:
Well, that's what's being implied! Heck, I stated my practical reasons
for not preferring SPD, and got hammered.
Frank you got hammered for implicitly lying about your [non]
experience with SPD's and for expressly lying about Sheldon having
agreed with you in an email. Sorry dude you were busted. Don't forget
it. I won't.
Sheldon Brown: "Nothing else is as easy to get into as the Lyotards,
though." Posted _after_ he'd already said he prefers SPDs overall.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...615a0597fcc858
--
- Frank Krygowski
Yes, Frank we know how your delusions have you cherry picking words
and ignoring/deleting context.
That why I previously had to provide another link to clear things up.
Rather than relying on trying to force the context into something it
isn't, read:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...ae61efd0f766ea
Where Sheldon specifically referred to several models of platforms
including Mod 23's and wrote :
"SPDs beat platforms [including mods 23's] on ...[ease of entry]
hands down."
Sheldon did make a typo and refer to "Easiery entry"
Hey, Frank as long as your are intent upon sharing your delusions, how
about digging up that email that you claim Sheldon sent you:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...4f31bb2ce3a551
Can't find it? Gee, imagine that!
How many types of pedals have come out since Sheldon left us? Do you
think he would have tried any of them? I can't say that I knew him but
I've read his stuff for years and I have the impression that he would
use what works better even if it was new.
The dude liked old French bikes and had a fondness for their quirks,
so the fact he dumped Lyotards for SPDs says that he really, really
liked them. I don't think he liked them because they were harder to
get in to -- not unless he was a masochist. Hey, he liked old French
bikes, so maybe he was a masochist!

My impression is that Sheldon must have regarded SPD a worthwhile
development - superior to other pedal choices. Why else would anyone
wear it all the time?

It's not too cool the way Frank is pressing his impression of
Sheldon's opinion and meaning when he's not here to clarify it. And
he was definitely quirky. Nothing wrong with that; far from it; quite
the contrary.

Like I say I never met him but he was something of a legend when I lived
in Boston. Quirky is one of my favorite character traits and probably
why I read what he wrote. That and the fact that his practical advice
was very good.

On 7/31/2012 3:18 AM, thirty-six wrote:

snip
With further experience, his relative appreciation changed.

The ability to learn by experience is something that is missing with our
local prophet.

With SPDs I always engage the right foot (my first foot) with the pedal
at the bottom. Don't recall when the left foot usually fully engages,
probably near the bottom of the downstroke.

That's a good example of ease of entry. It's what I miss on the road bike. Once I'm used to the SPDs and switch back to the road bike with the KEOs, I have to actually think when clipping in. This is why I was asking about Speedplays.

On Jul 29, 5:46*pm, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/29/2012 4:50 PM, wrote:









On Jul 29, 9:53 am, Frank Krygowski let the
attack dog within him loose, and wrote:

So are you saying you have ceramic bearings on every bike you own?
Have you taken the time to drill lots of holes in your chainrings?
Did you ream out the inside of your seatpost yet? *If not, is there
some good reason your behavior doesn't match your arguments here? *Be
specific.

How about "taping your ears", Frank. That's one of your favorite
insults.

Part of what I'm arguing against here is the weird notion that
anything _supposedly_ better for racers must never be questioned for
anyone else. *People claim STI shifts easier, so even a tourist
shouldn't use bar-ends. *Or, SPD is more secure, so riding with toe
clips is foolish. *Or, carbon fiber is lighter and stiffer, so riding
old steel is quirky and ignorant.

There we go, those last few words are telling. "Quirky and ignorant".
Are we trying on shoes here-- IOW finding ones that fit and pinch at
the same time?

There's no question whatsoever that "STI" shifts "easier" and is
"better for racers", excepting TT bikes for obvious reasons of
functionality.
SPD pedals are "more secure" compared to clips/straps/cleats, but most
of all, not having a strap crushing your foot if it is tightened up
securely enough to hold the cleat in the pedal so your foot doesn't
pull out at a bad time (which, due to the nature of pedaling a
bicycle, tends to be the normal fail mode, "at a bad time").

I have foot problems due to injury that were no doubt whatsoever
exacerbated by years of using clips and straps. If I still "had" to
use straps, I wouldn't be riding, and that goes back 20 years to when
I had a foot operated on for "Larry Bird Toe" (not exact but "close
enough" according to the surgeon).

If you wanted to go back and get testimony from "racers" about foot
damage from straps, you could do so, Frank. There were comments to
that effect when the change away from straps to "SPD" (actually, Look
first IMS, at least among roadies that I knew).

Don't try to tell me I don't know how to tighten a toe strap properly,
either.

But another part of what I'm arguing is the strange idea that in
racing, nothing is negligible. We have people here claiming that _any_
reduction in weight _always_ helps - even in a flat time trial. We've
had at least one guy once talk about the aero advantages of proper
finger position in a TT! And we've had people say that if it helps
even a little in a TT, it can't be negligible even drafting in the
middle of a huge peloton.

Yet nobody here has told of implementing several of these minuscule
improvements and demonstrating significant benefit, let alone a race
win. *And even the "nothing is negligible" crowd no longer bothers to
drill a hundred holes in their chainrings.http://www.43bikes.com/fortythree/ww/drilling-do1.jpg
So how did _that_ become negligible?

People figured out that, along with tinfoil rims, lightness wasn't
everything if your bike didn't make it across the finish line.
I never saw much breakage due to drilling but I sure-enough saw
tinfoil rim failure, one such at a big, annual race back in about 1980
or before that I know changed some minds about tinfoil rims.
--D-y

Plenty of examples for that sort of thing. Doug Thomas DNF'd
at the National Road in Milwaukee 1974 when his front wheel
fell apart within sight of the finish line. Yup, built it
himself, haphazardly, the night before the race.

OTOH Wayne Stetina's famous out of the saddle for 20 some
miles championship ride after his new titanium saddle frame
failed. But then again he did win it. I suppose you could
say that his light equipment didn't quite prevent him from
winning, huh?

The Weltmeister rim that didn't make it through the "speed dips" at
Vail in 1980 sure prevented him from winning g.

OTOH, I knew someone who pranged *both* of his shiny-new, oh-so-
expensive Mavic SSC Bleu's on some known-deadly rural railroad tracks
one fine day.
--D-y