A real reason for gravel bikes?

On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 1:03:17 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/19/2020 2:07 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 10:08:15 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/19/2020 11:39 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 8:44:43 AM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 7:44:15 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 8:30:57 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 6:47:53 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/18/2020 5:08 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 14:36:28 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:

“In 10 years, we’re going to start turning roads back into gravel†if
nothing changes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/b...sin-roads.html

As I've mentioned, Ohio has 88 counties. Some, like mine, have many more
miles of county roads than do others. But the state's funds distributed
for county road maintenence gives each county 1/88 of the total instead
of giving on a per-mile basis. I frequently see the effects when riding
from one county into another.

Are roads in the U.S. really as bad as described here? I grew up in
New England, went to school in Florida, lived in a number of states
including Ohio, Texas, Louisiana, California and Maine, drove coast to
coast a couple of times and while I wouldn't say that all the roads
were as smooth as a billiard table I would say that they were pretty
damned good.

Granted I left the U.S. in 1972 but have U.S. roads deteriorate from
"pretty damned good" to the wilderness of chuck holes that I see
described here?
--
cheers,

John B.


I'm also of the glass-half-full school on that. Are there
roads in poor repair? Sure. But there are long term
replacement schedules which can be reviewed at your State
DOT web site.

Example- WI Hwy 19 from Springfield Corners to Mazomanie, a
road I use weekly, was about 1/4 literally AWOL. With an
oncoming milk truck, the best technique was to pull over
where possible and stop because two vehicles couldn't pass
in large sections. That was rebuilt in 2018 and is now an
absolute joy.

#2- WI Hwy 60 in front of our building is being replaced
this year. Sure it needs help, but I'm much less excited
because this will involve an assessment and months of dust.

#3- The loudest bitching about the Governor and road
maintenance usually centers on condition of city streets and
township roads which are not his problem. I don't much care
for The Current Occupant in the statehouse either but let's
hang him for his own sins.

As I've stated, I ride and drive on U.S. highways, state highways, on, county roads, on township roads, on city and village streets. All
have different financing systems. I think most get funds from a mix
of sources; for example, local projects often get some state or
federal help.

One problem that's upcoming is the expected drop in gasoline sales
due to electric and hybrid cars. I know a person who recently bought
an electric car, and was surprised to find the licensing fees are
much higher than a gas car, supposedly to help make up that deficit.

On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 10:08:15 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/19/2020 11:39 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 8:44:43 AM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 7:44:15 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 8:30:57 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 6:47:53 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/18/2020 5:08 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 14:36:28 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:

“In 10 years, we’re going to start turning roads back into gravel†if
nothing changes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/b...sin-roads.html

As I've mentioned, Ohio has 88 counties. Some, like mine, have many more
miles of county roads than do others. But the state's funds distributed
for county road maintenence gives each county 1/88 of the total instead
of giving on a per-mile basis. I frequently see the effects when riding
from one county into another.

Are roads in the U.S. really as bad as described here? I grew up in
New England, went to school in Florida, lived in a number of states
including Ohio, Texas, Louisiana, California and Maine, drove coast to
coast a couple of times and while I wouldn't say that all the roads
were as smooth as a billiard table I would say that they were pretty
damned good.

Granted I left the U.S. in 1972 but have U.S. roads deteriorate from
"pretty damned good" to the wilderness of chuck holes that I see
described here?
--
cheers,

John B.


I'm also of the glass-half-full school on that. Are there
roads in poor repair? Sure. But there are long term
replacement schedules which can be reviewed at your State
DOT web site.

Example- WI Hwy 19 from Springfield Corners to Mazomanie, a
road I use weekly, was about 1/4 literally AWOL. With an
oncoming milk truck, the best technique was to pull over
where possible and stop because two vehicles couldn't pass
in large sections. That was rebuilt in 2018 and is now an
absolute joy.

#2- WI Hwy 60 in front of our building is being replaced
this year. Sure it needs help, but I'm much less excited
because this will involve an assessment and months of dust.

#3- The loudest bitching about the Governor and road
maintenance usually centers on condition of city streets and
township roads which are not his problem. I don't much care
for The Current Occupant in the statehouse either but let's
hang him for his own sins.

As I've stated, I ride and drive on U.S. highways, state highways, on, county roads, on township roads, on city and village streets. All
have different financing systems. I think most get funds from a mix
of sources; for example, local projects often get some state or
federal help.

One problem that's upcoming is the expected drop in gasoline sales
due to electric and hybrid cars. I know a person who recently bought
an electric car, and was surprised to find the licensing fees are
much higher than a gas car, supposedly to help make up that deficit.

I may need to change my attitude, and write thank you notes to the
dudes who buy huge pickup trucks.

- Frank Krygowski

Frank - eight and then six years ago the taxpayers in California passes a 12 cent gas tax increase.. This makes a total of about 45 cents of so. California fuel use is way down - only about 5 million gallons a month for gasoline alone. They also tax diesel more and they even have aviation fuel taxes.

With a yearly income of something like $27 Million you'd expect to see SOME road repairs. The main street in Oakland - Broadway - was literally gravel before they refinished it. Other than that the only other repairs I'd seen is the re-paving of a street in the rich part of town that didn't need it.

They are patching roads here and there by pouring hot tar into the largest cracks. Now large parts of Northern California also want to become part of Greater Idaho.

WTF? Large parts of Northern California are idiots. Look at a map. How about they want to become part of Greater Nevada . . . or Oregon.

BTW, large parts of I-84 in Idaho drive like chipseal, and there are some nasty concrete sections. Taxes are low, and you get what you pay for. https://www.ktvb.com/article/news/lo...2-6b28798fe1b2 IMO, Oregon and Utah have better roads.

-- Jay Beattie.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...ehP?li=BBnb7Kz


What else is new? Several States have secession movements
(none of which, I predict, will be fruitful.):

https://soj51.org/

https://www.newstarget.com/2020-01-1...-virginia.html

Even parts of West Consin (way up nort' beyond civilization
above Hwy 8) would rather be Youpers.

p.s. Not always 'We Shall Be Free'. Sometimes it's more
"Hey You- Just Go Away":

https://www.chicagotribune.com/lifes...7ya-story.html

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I doubt this one will be as well. But it has political effects. Northern California and most of central California are extremely dissatisfied with the Dimocrat government that wrecks anything and everything it touches. On the TV last night they just showed some guy that has been arrested for felonies 157 times and he was actually laughing into the camera because the San Francisco Attorney General isn't indicting people. And they have no cash bail so the cops check them in and they walk out the front door. He said, "I am thanking the Democrats for this." I think they said that there has been a 4 fold increase in murders and an 8 fold increase in other felonies. This is what San Franciscans asked for and that is exactly what they got. The police chief said that if you don't jail a man who hops the fare gate at BART that the severity of crimes continues to increase. He said that when they caught these guys 95% of them had outstanding felony warrants. Sort of like Jay's heaven. Endless crime by people who don't have to pay for anything.

On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 11:57:10 AM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:

On 2/19/2020 9:44 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 7:27:28 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 18:29:23 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:


And then there are bridges. I go over this one to see my
brother. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVSTcKLJ5gw From above:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOmnC05Ou7w It's scary narrow, and
its scheduled to be replaced as soon as the bridge toll piggy bank
is full.

Looks like a normal two lane bridge built for trucks and automobiles,
one lane each way. What more could one want?

Well, I could want lanes that were not scaled for Model Ts and could
do without a metal deck that steers the car (particularly with the
usual high wind), and I could want a bridge that allows bicycles,
but apart from that, nothing.

Speaking of metal decks: There's a suspension bridge over the Ohio
River that I used to use for a ride I led - a toll bridge, 5 cents per
bike. (I very generously paid for everyone on the ride.)

https://bridgehunter.com/wv/hancock/newell/

The open steel deck gave a nice view of the water maybe 50 feet
below. It gave me a feeling of flying. Looking down as I rode, the
height wasn't really apparent until I got to the support towers, or to
the banks on the north. Those provided a sense of scale and a little
shiver of excitement.

One or two of my friends found riding it too scary. They used the
sidewalk instead.

I used to ride over two metal decked bridges fairly often; one has now
been demolished and the other is closed for renovation. My experience
was that they were rideable but unpleasant, because the deck tends to
steer for you. Maybe that's just well worn decks, I have probably never
encountered a nice new one.

When wet they were treacherous.

--

That was my experience with high pressure 23 mm tires. But with low pressure 25 mm tires that doesn't even begin to happen The trouble is that the cars at the stop light behind you will floorboard it when the light changes. So I only do it when I'm feeling good and can clear the top of the arch before the light changes. On the other side you can accelerate up to auto speed..

On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 12:07:51 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 10:08:15 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/19/2020 11:39 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 8:44:43 AM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 7:44:15 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 8:30:57 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 6:47:53 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/18/2020 5:08 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 14:36:28 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:

“In 10 years, we’re going to start turning roads back into gravel†if
nothing changes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/b...sin-roads.html

As I've mentioned, Ohio has 88 counties. Some, like mine, have many more
miles of county roads than do others. But the state's funds distributed
for county road maintenence gives each county 1/88 of the total instead
of giving on a per-mile basis. I frequently see the effects when riding
from one county into another.

Are roads in the U.S. really as bad as described here? I grew up in
New England, went to school in Florida, lived in a number of states
including Ohio, Texas, Louisiana, California and Maine, drove coast to
coast a couple of times and while I wouldn't say that all the roads
were as smooth as a billiard table I would say that they were pretty
damned good.

Granted I left the U.S. in 1972 but have U.S. roads deteriorate from
"pretty damned good" to the wilderness of chuck holes that I see
described here?
--
cheers,

John B.


I'm also of the glass-half-full school on that. Are there
roads in poor repair? Sure. But there are long term
replacement schedules which can be reviewed at your State
DOT web site.

Example- WI Hwy 19 from Springfield Corners to Mazomanie, a
road I use weekly, was about 1/4 literally AWOL. With an
oncoming milk truck, the best technique was to pull over
where possible and stop because two vehicles couldn't pass
in large sections. That was rebuilt in 2018 and is now an
absolute joy.

#2- WI Hwy 60 in front of our building is being replaced
this year. Sure it needs help, but I'm much less excited
because this will involve an assessment and months of dust.

#3- The loudest bitching about the Governor and road
maintenance usually centers on condition of city streets and
township roads which are not his problem. I don't much care
for The Current Occupant in the statehouse either but let's
hang him for his own sins.

As I've stated, I ride and drive on U.S. highways, state highways, on, county roads, on township roads, on city and village streets. All
have different financing systems. I think most get funds from a mix
of sources; for example, local projects often get some state or
federal help.

One problem that's upcoming is the expected drop in gasoline sales
due to electric and hybrid cars. I know a person who recently bought
an electric car, and was surprised to find the licensing fees are
much higher than a gas car, supposedly to help make up that deficit.

On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 1:12:52 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 6:56:38 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 15:23:30 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 3:41:10 PM UTC-6, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 1:22:44 PM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, 18 February 2020 16:12:43 UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 8:36:32 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
“In 10 years, we’re going to start turning roads back into gravel� if
nothing changes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/b...sin-roads.html

As I've mentioned, Ohio has 88 counties. Some, like mine, have many more
miles of county roads than do others. But the state's funds distributed
for county road maintenence gives each county 1/88 of the total instead
of giving on a per-mile basis. I frequently see the effects when riding
from one county into another.


I can't complain about the condition of our country roads. They are well maintained compared to Germany and Belgium were I ride also frequently especially Germany. The roads in Belgium are awful. There are no borders anymore but as soon as you cross the invisible Belgium border you now immidiately you are in Belgium. Your fillings are rattling out of your teeth.

Lou
--
- Frank Krygowski

That's exactly what Duane says about riding from Quebec to Ontario Canada.

Cheers

This is interesting. Why do you suppose they went from very good roads during the Presidency of Eisenhower to the slow degradation of roads since?


????? Eisenhower was in office about 70 years ago. He started the national Interstate road system. Based upon the road network he observed in Germany during World War 2. In the 1950s there was not two cars for every single human being. There was not as many roads. The car culture had not become the meaning of the USA yet. There were also less people. Now there are 330 million people in the USA. People who consume stuff. People who buy stuff. People who need stores to sell them stuff. Stores that need roads to haul all the stuff to the store. Stores that need heavy semi trucks to haul the stuff. Heavy semis that destroy the roads. 70 years of heavy trucks on roads destroy the roads and eventually they need to be replaced. How many cars built during Eisenhower's reign do you see being driven today? None. They all wore out. And the roads have to be replaced too.

But yet roads built in the days of the Roman empire are still in use
today albeit with another layer of surfacing although I believe that
there are sections of the Via Appia and possibly the Via Aurelia
where the original paving is still used.

To be a bit pedantic a semi truck don't necessarily destroy roads, it
is the tire loading is the determining factor and it is quite possible
for a small, heavily loaded, truck to have a higher tire loading and
thus do more damage to a road than a large truck, with more wheels and
wider tires and thus having a lighter tire loading.,

I once did a study of wheel loading and potential road damage for the
Indonesian National Highway Department demonstrating that 50 ton
Oilfield trucks actually caused less damage to the highway than the
small, grossly overloaded, 3 ton trucks commonly used by small
freight companies.
--
cheers,

John B.

True, it is the pounds per square inch that is the decider. But big trucks, or the small freight trucks you describe, or gravel dump trucks, have the highest pounds per square inch. And do all the damage to roads. In the USA 80,000 pounds is the maximum weight of an 18 wheel semi truck. That is 4,444 pounds per tire. A Toyota Camry weighs 3500 pounds. Or 875 pounds per tire. For these two vehicles to be equal for weight per square inch on the road, the semi tire would have to be 5 TIMES more surface area touching the road. I have looked at tires on semi trucks and Camrys. The semi tire does not have 5 times more surface area. Semi tire has about 2 or 3 times more surface area.

The surface pressure of semi's is so high that in some places it causes the road to melt and run under the tires. That is why concrete should be used on commercial roads.

On 2/19/2020 4:02 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 1:03:17 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/19/2020 2:07 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 10:08:15 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/19/2020 11:39 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 8:44:43 AM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 7:44:15 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 8:30:57 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 6:47:53 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/18/2020 5:08 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 14:36:28 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:

“In 10 years, we’re going to start turning roads back into gravel†if
nothing changes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/b...sin-roads.html

As I've mentioned, Ohio has 88 counties. Some, like mine, have many more
miles of county roads than do others. But the state's funds distributed
for county road maintenence gives each county 1/88 of the total instead
of giving on a per-mile basis. I frequently see the effects when riding
from one county into another.

Are roads in the U.S. really as bad as described here? I grew up in
New England, went to school in Florida, lived in a number of states
including Ohio, Texas, Louisiana, California and Maine, drove coast to
coast a couple of times and while I wouldn't say that all the roads
were as smooth as a billiard table I would say that they were pretty
damned good.

Granted I left the U.S. in 1972 but have U.S. roads deteriorate from
"pretty damned good" to the wilderness of chuck holes that I see
described here?
--
cheers,

John B.


I'm also of the glass-half-full school on that. Are there
roads in poor repair? Sure. But there are long term
replacement schedules which can be reviewed at your State
DOT web site.

Example- WI Hwy 19 from Springfield Corners to Mazomanie, a
road I use weekly, was about 1/4 literally AWOL. With an
oncoming milk truck, the best technique was to pull over
where possible and stop because two vehicles couldn't pass
in large sections. That was rebuilt in 2018 and is now an
absolute joy.

#2- WI Hwy 60 in front of our building is being replaced
this year. Sure it needs help, but I'm much less excited
because this will involve an assessment and months of dust.

#3- The loudest bitching about the Governor and road
maintenance usually centers on condition of city streets and
township roads which are not his problem. I don't much care
for The Current Occupant in the statehouse either but let's
hang him for his own sins.

As I've stated, I ride and drive on U.S. highways, state highways, on, county roads, on township roads, on city and village streets. All
have different financing systems. I think most get funds from a mix
of sources; for example, local projects often get some state or
federal help.

One problem that's upcoming is the expected drop in gasoline sales
due to electric and hybrid cars. I know a person who recently bought
an electric car, and was surprised to find the licensing fees are
much higher than a gas car, supposedly to help make up that deficit.

I may need to change my attitude, and write thank you notes to the
dudes who buy huge pickup trucks.

- Frank Krygowski

Frank - eight and then six years ago the taxpayers in California passes a 12 cent gas tax increase.. This makes a total of about 45 cents of so. California fuel use is way down - only about 5 million gallons a month for gasoline alone. They also tax diesel more and they even have aviation fuel taxes.

With a yearly income of something like $27 Million you'd expect to see SOME road repairs. The main street in Oakland - Broadway - was literally gravel before they refinished it. Other than that the only other repairs I'd seen is the re-paving of a street in the rich part of town that didn't need it.

They are patching roads here and there by pouring hot tar into the largest cracks. Now large parts of Northern California also want to become part of Greater Idaho.

WTF? Large parts of Northern California are idiots. Look at a map. How about they want to become part of Greater Nevada . . . or Oregon.

BTW, large parts of I-84 in Idaho drive like chipseal, and there are some nasty concrete sections. Taxes are low, and you get what you pay for. https://www.ktvb.com/article/news/lo...2-6b28798fe1b2 IMO, Oregon and Utah have better roads.

-- Jay Beattie.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...ehP?li=BBnb7Kz


What else is new? Several States have secession movements
(none of which, I predict, will be fruitful.):

https://soj51.org/

https://www.newstarget.com/2020-01-1...-virginia.html

Even parts of West Consin (way up nort' beyond civilization
above Hwy 8) would rather be Youpers.

p.s. Not always 'We Shall Be Free'. Sometimes it's more
"Hey You- Just Go Away":

https://www.chicagotribune.com/lifes...7ya-story.html

81 percent of all state revenue in Oregon is generated west of the Cascades. We support the break-away counties of greater Idaho. They couldn't pay for their own schools, which are unbelievably expensive, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crane_Union_High_School A public boarding school. Your tax dollars at work. The population of Harney county is 7,300 (there are 14X more cows than people). Schools are funded through the state general fund with some local levies. Imagine what they would pay in local taxes if they had to foot the bill for that one school alone. They're already going broke providing county services. https://www.opb.org/news/article/har...services-cuts/ The folks of Idaho wouldn't want these broke, break-away counties. What a financial mess.

-- Jay Beattie.





Not disputing what you wrote but it's an excellent example
of complexity in public policy. It reads like dystopian
science fiction from a hack writer.

35 years ago the Oregon logging industry[1] was publicly
drawn and quartered in favor of the ****ant unremarkable
spotted owl. Part of that program included Federal payments
to Oregon counties to offset their lost revenue. How
successful was that? The payment stream expired (as you
noted above) and Interior Department sharpshooters are
paid[2] to remove the Barred owl which has taken over the
area from the feckless doomed to deserved extinction spotted
owl. Now we add to the damned spotted owl's many victims
cycling taxpayers in Portland.

[1]Efficient major source of US lumber from trees ready to
harvest, which otherwise die and rot. And a former major
export, employer, taxpayer.

[2]No, not DJT. That's a BHO program.


No spotted owls in Harney County. The range is further west. More fake conservative news. https://oregonwild.org/what-media-missed-about-malheur Issues with barred owls occurred decades ago. I know because my wife was a Forest Service employee who tromped around in the dark playing spotted owl calls on a speaker and getting dive-bombed by barred owls. She was a back country guard and firefighter, too.

-- Jay Beattie.


Maybe The Bagwan unlocked that door and all the other kooks
followed.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 2:49:10 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 10:08:15 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/19/2020 11:39 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 8:44:43 AM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 7:44:15 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 8:30:57 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 6:47:53 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/18/2020 5:08 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 14:36:28 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:

“In 10 years, we’re going to start turning roads back into gravel†if
nothing changes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/b...sin-roads.html

As I've mentioned, Ohio has 88 counties. Some, like mine, have many more
miles of county roads than do others. But the state's funds distributed
for county road maintenence gives each county 1/88 of the total instead
of giving on a per-mile basis. I frequently see the effects when riding
from one county into another.

Are roads in the U.S. really as bad as described here? I grew up in
New England, went to school in Florida, lived in a number of states
including Ohio, Texas, Louisiana, California and Maine, drove coast to
coast a couple of times and while I wouldn't say that all the roads
were as smooth as a billiard table I would say that they were pretty
damned good.

Granted I left the U.S. in 1972 but have U.S. roads deteriorate from
"pretty damned good" to the wilderness of chuck holes that I see
described here?
--
cheers,

John B.


I'm also of the glass-half-full school on that. Are there
roads in poor repair? Sure. But there are long term
replacement schedules which can be reviewed at your State
DOT web site.

Example- WI Hwy 19 from Springfield Corners to Mazomanie, a
road I use weekly, was about 1/4 literally AWOL. With an
oncoming milk truck, the best technique was to pull over
where possible and stop because two vehicles couldn't pass
in large sections. That was rebuilt in 2018 and is now an
absolute joy.

#2- WI Hwy 60 in front of our building is being replaced
this year. Sure it needs help, but I'm much less excited
because this will involve an assessment and months of dust.

#3- The loudest bitching about the Governor and road
maintenance usually centers on condition of city streets and
township roads which are not his problem. I don't much care
for The Current Occupant in the statehouse either but let's
hang him for his own sins.

As I've stated, I ride and drive on U.S. highways, state highways, on, county roads, on township roads, on city and village streets. All
have different financing systems. I think most get funds from a mix
of sources; for example, local projects often get some state or
federal help.

One problem that's upcoming is the expected drop in gasoline sales
due to electric and hybrid cars. I know a person who recently bought
an electric car, and was surprised to find the licensing fees are
much higher than a gas car, supposedly to help make up that deficit.

On Wed, 19 Feb 2020 13:12:50 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 6:56:38 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 15:23:30 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 3:41:10 PM UTC-6, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 1:22:44 PM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, 18 February 2020 16:12:43 UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 8:36:32 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
“In 10 years, we’re going to start turning roads back into gravel” if
nothing changes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/b...sin-roads.html

As I've mentioned, Ohio has 88 counties. Some, like mine, have many more
miles of county roads than do others. But the state's funds distributed
for county road maintenence gives each county 1/88 of the total instead
of giving on a per-mile basis. I frequently see the effects when riding
from one county into another.


I can't complain about the condition of our country roads. They are well maintained compared to Germany and Belgium were I ride also frequently especially Germany. The roads in Belgium are awful. There are no borders anymore but as soon as you cross the invisible Belgium border you now immidiately you are in Belgium. Your fillings are rattling out of your teeth.

Lou
--
- Frank Krygowski

That's exactly what Duane says about riding from Quebec to Ontario Canada.

Cheers

This is interesting. Why do you suppose they went from very good roads during the Presidency of Eisenhower to the slow degradation of roads since?


????? Eisenhower was in office about 70 years ago. He started the national Interstate road system. Based upon the road network he observed in Germany during World War 2. In the 1950s there was not two cars for every single human being. There was not as many roads. The car culture had not become the meaning of the USA yet. There were also less people. Now there are 330 million people in the USA. People who consume stuff. People who buy stuff. People who need stores to sell them stuff. Stores that need roads to haul all the stuff to the store. Stores that need heavy semi trucks to haul the stuff. Heavy semis that destroy the roads. 70 years of heavy trucks on roads destroy the roads and eventually they need to be replaced. How many cars built during Eisenhower's reign do you see being driven today? None. They all wore out. And the roads have to be replaced too.

But yet roads built in the days of the Roman empire are still in use
today albeit with another layer of surfacing although I believe that
there are sections of the Via Appia and possibly the Via Aurelia
where the original paving is still used.

To be a bit pedantic a semi truck don't necessarily destroy roads, it
is the tire loading is the determining factor and it is quite possible
for a small, heavily loaded, truck to have a higher tire loading and
thus do more damage to a road than a large truck, with more wheels and
wider tires and thus having a lighter tire loading.,

I once did a study of wheel loading and potential road damage for the
Indonesian National Highway Department demonstrating that 50 ton
Oilfield trucks actually caused less damage to the highway than the
small, grossly overloaded, 3 ton trucks commonly used by small
freight companies.
--
cheers,

John B.

True, it is the pounds per square inch that is the decider. But big trucks, or the small freight trucks you describe, or gravel dump trucks, have the highest pounds per square inch. And do all the damage to roads. In the USA 80,000 pounds is the maximum weight of an 18 wheel semi truck. That is 4,444 pounds per tire. A Toyota Camry weighs 3500 pounds. Or 875 pounds per tire. For these two vehicles to be equal for weight per square inch on the road, the semi tire would have to be 5 TIMES more surface area touching the road. I have looked at tires on semi trucks and Camrys. The semi tire does not have 5 times more surface area. Semi tire has about 2 or 3 times more surface area.

While you over all theory seems likely I can certainly show you roads
that have never had a heavy truck over them and are still all torn up
:-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 19 Feb 2020 06:44:06 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 7:27:28 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 18:29:23 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 3:47:53 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/18/2020 5:08 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 14:36:28 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

“In 10 years, we’re going to start turning roads back into gravel” if
nothing changes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/b...sin-roads.html

As I've mentioned, Ohio has 88 counties. Some, like mine, have many more
miles of county roads than do others. But the state's funds distributed
for county road maintenence gives each county 1/88 of the total instead
of giving on a per-mile basis. I frequently see the effects when riding
from one county into another.

Are roads in the U.S. really as bad as described here? I grew up in
New England, went to school in Florida, lived in a number of states
including Ohio, Texas, Louisiana, California and Maine, drove coast to
coast a couple of times and while I wouldn't say that all the roads
were as smooth as a billiard table I would say that they were pretty
damned good.

Granted I left the U.S. in 1972 but have U.S. roads deteriorate from
"pretty damned good" to the wilderness of chuck holes that I see
described here?
--
cheers,

John B.


I'm also of the glass-half-full school on that. Are there
roads in poor repair? Sure. But there are long term
replacement schedules which can be reviewed at your State
DOT web site.

Example- WI Hwy 19 from Springfield Corners to Mazomanie, a
road I use weekly, was about 1/4 literally AWOL. With an
oncoming milk truck, the best technique was to pull over
where possible and stop because two vehicles couldn't pass
in large sections. That was rebuilt in 2018 and is now an
absolute joy.

#2- WI Hwy 60 in front of our building is being replaced
this year. Sure it needs help, but I'm much less excited
because this will involve an assessment and months of dust.

#3- The loudest bitching about the Governor and road
maintenance usually centers on condition of city streets and
township roads which are not his problem. I don't much care
for The Current Occupant in the statehouse either but let's
hang him for his own sins.

And then there are bridges. I go over this one to see my brother. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVSTcKLJ5gw From above: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOmnC05Ou7w It's scary narrow, and its scheduled to be replaced as soon as the bridge toll piggy bank is full.

Looks like a normal two lane bridge built for trucks and automobiles,
one lane each way. What more could one want?

Well, I could want lanes that were not scaled for Model Ts and could do without a metal deck that steers the car (particularly with the usual high wind), and I could want a bridge that allows bicycles, but apart from that, nothing.

-- Jay Beattie.

But the bridge, the second oldest road bridge across the Columbia
between Washington and Oregon, was built by the Oregon-Washington
Bridge Company and opened on December 9, 1924, when the Model T sold
for 265 gold backed dollars.

Of course, you could advocate tearing it down and building a new
bridge... didn't San Francisco do something like that :-?
--
cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 19 Feb 2020 09:55:12 +0100, Rolf Mantel
wrote:

Am 19.02.2020 um 06:43 schrieb John B.:
Yes, contractors.
There are finite number of licensed civil engineering
firms, yes bid collusion is a real thing, and the Highway
Commission is weighted heavily to ex-employees of the paving
companies.
Add to that the basic rule of infrastructure- it's much
cheaper to buy an inspector than build to plan.

Some years ago I read a news article that said that ALL the paving
contractors in the state of Illinois were in cahoots to control prices
and that they would under bid anyone that tried to break their
monopoly in order to drive them out of the business.

Ah, there is *some* benefit of the European "EU-wide contracting"
regulations. Without knowledge of the number of bids entered you cannot
bid differently depending on whther an out-of-state contractor is part
of the game.

The company I worked for in Indonesia did a lot of work for the oil
industry which came under the supervision of the government. To bid a
job you first needed to demonstrate that your company was capable and
had the experience to do the job and than there was a "site visit" for
the eligible bidders to view the construction site. You got a pretty
good idea of who your real competition was by who showed up.
--
cheers,

John B.