A real reason for gravel bikes?

On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 15:23:30 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 3:41:10 PM UTC-6, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 1:22:44 PM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, 18 February 2020 16:12:43 UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 8:36:32 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
“In 10 years, we’re going to start turning roads back into gravel” if
nothing changes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/b...sin-roads.html

As I've mentioned, Ohio has 88 counties. Some, like mine, have many more
miles of county roads than do others. But the state's funds distributed
for county road maintenence gives each county 1/88 of the total instead
of giving on a per-mile basis. I frequently see the effects when riding
from one county into another.


I can't complain about the condition of our country roads. They are well maintained compared to Germany and Belgium were I ride also frequently especially Germany. The roads in Belgium are awful. There are no borders anymore but as soon as you cross the invisible Belgium border you now immidiately you are in Belgium. Your fillings are rattling out of your teeth.

Lou
--
- Frank Krygowski

That's exactly what Duane says about riding from Quebec to Ontario Canada.

Cheers

This is interesting. Why do you suppose they went from very good roads during the Presidency of Eisenhower to the slow degradation of roads since?


????? Eisenhower was in office about 70 years ago. He started the national Interstate road system. Based upon the road network he observed in Germany during World War 2. In the 1950s there was not two cars for every single human being. There was not as many roads. The car culture had not become the meaning of the USA yet. There were also less people. Now there are 330 million people in the USA. People who consume stuff. People who buy stuff. People who need stores to sell them stuff. Stores that need roads to haul all the stuff to the store. Stores that need heavy semi trucks to haul the stuff. Heavy semis that destroy the roads. 70 years of heavy trucks on roads destroy the roads and eventually they need to be replaced. How many cars built during Eisenhower's reign do you see being driven today? None. They all wore out. And the roads have to be replaced too.

But yet roads built in the days of the Roman empire are still in use
today albeit with another layer of surfacing although I believe that
there are sections of the Via Appia and possibly the Via Aurelia
where the original paving is still used.

To be a bit pedantic a semi truck don't necessarily destroy roads, it
is the tire loading is the determining factor and it is quite possible
for a small, heavily loaded, truck to have a higher tire loading and
thus do more damage to a road than a large truck, with more wheels and
wider tires and thus having a lighter tire loading.,

I once did a study of wheel loading and potential road damage for the
Indonesian National Highway Department demonstrating that 50 ton
Oilfield trucks actually caused less damage to the highway than the
small, grossly overloaded, 3 ton trucks commonly used by small
freight companies.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 3:47:53 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/18/2020 5:08 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 14:36:28 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

“In 10 years, we’re going to start turning roads back into gravel� if
nothing changes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/b...sin-roads.html

As I've mentioned, Ohio has 88 counties. Some, like mine, have many more
miles of county roads than do others. But the state's funds distributed
for county road maintenence gives each county 1/88 of the total instead
of giving on a per-mile basis. I frequently see the effects when riding
from one county into another.

Are roads in the U.S. really as bad as described here? I grew up in
New England, went to school in Florida, lived in a number of states
including Ohio, Texas, Louisiana, California and Maine, drove coast to
coast a couple of times and while I wouldn't say that all the roads
were as smooth as a billiard table I would say that they were pretty
damned good.

Granted I left the U.S. in 1972 but have U.S. roads deteriorate from
"pretty damned good" to the wilderness of chuck holes that I see
described here?
--
cheers,

John B.


I'm also of the glass-half-full school on that. Are there
roads in poor repair? Sure. But there are long term
replacement schedules which can be reviewed at your State
DOT web site.

Example- WI Hwy 19 from Springfield Corners to Mazomanie, a
road I use weekly, was about 1/4 literally AWOL. With an
oncoming milk truck, the best technique was to pull over
where possible and stop because two vehicles couldn't pass
in large sections. That was rebuilt in 2018 and is now an
absolute joy.

#2- WI Hwy 60 in front of our building is being replaced
this year. Sure it needs help, but I'm much less excited
because this will involve an assessment and months of dust.

#3- The loudest bitching about the Governor and road
maintenance usually centers on condition of city streets and
township roads which are not his problem. I don't much care
for The Current Occupant in the statehouse either but let's
hang him for his own sins.

And then there are bridges. I go over this one to see my brother. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVSTcKLJ5gw From above: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOmnC05Ou7w It's scary narrow, and its scheduled to be replaced as soon as the bridge toll piggy bank is full.

We have some nasty, broken-up neighborhood streets on the westside of Portland -- old concrete roads from the turn of the century -- and some nasty gravel/pot-holed roads in some of SE neighborhoods. OTOH, there are some really nice rural roads, and the arterials are in pretty good shape. It's the little capillary roads that can be bad.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 18:29:23 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 3:47:53 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/18/2020 5:08 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 14:36:28 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

“In 10 years, we’re going to start turning roads back into gravel” if
nothing changes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/b...sin-roads.html

As I've mentioned, Ohio has 88 counties. Some, like mine, have many more
miles of county roads than do others. But the state's funds distributed
for county road maintenence gives each county 1/88 of the total instead
of giving on a per-mile basis. I frequently see the effects when riding
from one county into another.

Are roads in the U.S. really as bad as described here? I grew up in
New England, went to school in Florida, lived in a number of states
including Ohio, Texas, Louisiana, California and Maine, drove coast to
coast a couple of times and while I wouldn't say that all the roads
were as smooth as a billiard table I would say that they were pretty
damned good.

Granted I left the U.S. in 1972 but have U.S. roads deteriorate from
"pretty damned good" to the wilderness of chuck holes that I see
described here?
--
cheers,

John B.


I'm also of the glass-half-full school on that. Are there
roads in poor repair? Sure. But there are long term
replacement schedules which can be reviewed at your State
DOT web site.

Example- WI Hwy 19 from Springfield Corners to Mazomanie, a
road I use weekly, was about 1/4 literally AWOL. With an
oncoming milk truck, the best technique was to pull over
where possible and stop because two vehicles couldn't pass
in large sections. That was rebuilt in 2018 and is now an
absolute joy.

#2- WI Hwy 60 in front of our building is being replaced
this year. Sure it needs help, but I'm much less excited
because this will involve an assessment and months of dust.

#3- The loudest bitching about the Governor and road
maintenance usually centers on condition of city streets and
township roads which are not his problem. I don't much care
for The Current Occupant in the statehouse either but let's
hang him for his own sins.

And then there are bridges. I go over this one to see my brother. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVSTcKLJ5gw From above: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOmnC05Ou7w It's scary narrow, and its scheduled to be replaced as soon as the bridge toll piggy bank is full.

Looks like a normal two lane bridge built for trucks and automobiles,
one lane each way. What more could one want?

We have some nasty, broken-up neighborhood streets on the westside of Portland -- old concrete roads from the turn of the century -- and some nasty gravel/pot-holed roads in some of SE neighborhoods. OTOH, there are some really nice rural roads, and the arterials are in pretty good shape. It's the little capillary roads that can be bad.

-- Jay Beattie.

Goodness. Old? The turn of the century? You mean that the concrete
roads only last 20 years up there in the N.W. :-? Probably time to
find a new contractor :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On 2/18/2020 9:27 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 18:29:23 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 3:47:53 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/18/2020 5:08 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 14:36:28 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

“In 10 years, we’re going to start turning roads back into gravel” if
nothing changes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/b...sin-roads.html

As I've mentioned, Ohio has 88 counties. Some, like mine, have many more
miles of county roads than do others. But the state's funds distributed
for county road maintenence gives each county 1/88 of the total instead
of giving on a per-mile basis. I frequently see the effects when riding
from one county into another.

Are roads in the U.S. really as bad as described here? I grew up in
New England, went to school in Florida, lived in a number of states
including Ohio, Texas, Louisiana, California and Maine, drove coast to
coast a couple of times and while I wouldn't say that all the roads
were as smooth as a billiard table I would say that they were pretty
damned good.

Granted I left the U.S. in 1972 but have U.S. roads deteriorate from
"pretty damned good" to the wilderness of chuck holes that I see
described here?
--
cheers,

John B.


I'm also of the glass-half-full school on that. Are there
roads in poor repair? Sure. But there are long term
replacement schedules which can be reviewed at your State
DOT web site.

Example- WI Hwy 19 from Springfield Corners to Mazomanie, a
road I use weekly, was about 1/4 literally AWOL. With an
oncoming milk truck, the best technique was to pull over
where possible and stop because two vehicles couldn't pass
in large sections. That was rebuilt in 2018 and is now an
absolute joy.

#2- WI Hwy 60 in front of our building is being replaced
this year. Sure it needs help, but I'm much less excited
because this will involve an assessment and months of dust.

#3- The loudest bitching about the Governor and road
maintenance usually centers on condition of city streets and
township roads which are not his problem. I don't much care
for The Current Occupant in the statehouse either but let's
hang him for his own sins.

And then there are bridges. I go over this one to see my brother. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVSTcKLJ5gw From above: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOmnC05Ou7w It's scary narrow, and its scheduled to be replaced as soon as the bridge toll piggy bank is full.

Looks like a normal two lane bridge built for trucks and automobiles,
one lane each way. What more could one want?

We have some nasty, broken-up neighborhood streets on the westside of Portland -- old concrete roads from the turn of the century -- and some nasty gravel/pot-holed roads in some of SE neighborhoods. OTOH, there are some really nice rural roads, and the arterials are in pretty good shape. It's the little capillary roads that can be bad.

-- Jay Beattie.

Goodness. Old? The turn of the century? You mean that the concrete
roads only last 20 years up there in the N.W. :-? Probably time to
find a new contractor :-)
--
cheers,

John B.


Yes, contractors.
There are finite number of licensed civil engineering
firms, yes bid collusion is a real thing, and the Highway
Commission is weighted heavily to ex-employees of the paving
companies.
Add to that the basic rule of infrastructure- it's much
cheaper to buy an inspector than build to plan.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 6:47:53 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/18/2020 5:08 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 14:36:28 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:

“In 10 years, we’re going to start turning roads back into gravel� if
nothing changes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/b...sin-roads.html

As I've mentioned, Ohio has 88 counties. Some, like mine, have many more
miles of county roads than do others. But the state's funds distributed
for county road maintenence gives each county 1/88 of the total instead
of giving on a per-mile basis. I frequently see the effects when riding
from one county into another.

Are roads in the U.S. really as bad as described here? I grew up in
New England, went to school in Florida, lived in a number of states
including Ohio, Texas, Louisiana, California and Maine, drove coast to
coast a couple of times and while I wouldn't say that all the roads
were as smooth as a billiard table I would say that they were pretty
damned good.

Granted I left the U.S. in 1972 but have U.S. roads deteriorate from
"pretty damned good" to the wilderness of chuck holes that I see
described here?
--
cheers,

John B.


I'm also of the glass-half-full school on that. Are there
roads in poor repair? Sure. But there are long term
replacement schedules which can be reviewed at your State
DOT web site.

Example- WI Hwy 19 from Springfield Corners to Mazomanie, a
road I use weekly, was about 1/4 literally AWOL. With an
oncoming milk truck, the best technique was to pull over
where possible and stop because two vehicles couldn't pass
in large sections. That was rebuilt in 2018 and is now an
absolute joy.

#2- WI Hwy 60 in front of our building is being replaced
this year. Sure it needs help, but I'm much less excited
because this will involve an assessment and months of dust.

#3- The loudest bitching about the Governor and road
maintenance usually centers on condition of city streets and
township roads which are not his problem. I don't much care
for The Current Occupant in the statehouse either but let's
hang him for his own sins.

As I've stated, I ride and drive on U.S. highways, state highways, on, county roads, on township roads, on city and village streets. All
have different financing systems. I think most get funds from a mix
of sources; for example, local projects often get some state or
federal help.

One problem that's upcoming is the expected drop in gasoline sales
due to electric and hybrid cars. I know a person who recently bought
an electric car, and was surprised to find the licensing fees are
much higher than a gas car, supposedly to help make up that deficit.

I may need to change my attitude, and write thank you notes to the
dudes who buy huge pickup trucks.

- Frank Krygowski

On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 22:18:17 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 2/18/2020 9:27 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 18:29:23 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 3:47:53 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/18/2020 5:08 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 14:36:28 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

“In 10 years, we’re going to start turning roads back into gravel” if
nothing changes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/b...sin-roads.html

As I've mentioned, Ohio has 88 counties. Some, like mine, have many more
miles of county roads than do others. But the state's funds distributed
for county road maintenence gives each county 1/88 of the total instead
of giving on a per-mile basis. I frequently see the effects when riding
from one county into another.

Are roads in the U.S. really as bad as described here? I grew up in
New England, went to school in Florida, lived in a number of states
including Ohio, Texas, Louisiana, California and Maine, drove coast to
coast a couple of times and while I wouldn't say that all the roads
were as smooth as a billiard table I would say that they were pretty
damned good.

Granted I left the U.S. in 1972 but have U.S. roads deteriorate from
"pretty damned good" to the wilderness of chuck holes that I see
described here?
--
cheers,

John B.


I'm also of the glass-half-full school on that. Are there
roads in poor repair? Sure. But there are long term
replacement schedules which can be reviewed at your State
DOT web site.

Example- WI Hwy 19 from Springfield Corners to Mazomanie, a
road I use weekly, was about 1/4 literally AWOL. With an
oncoming milk truck, the best technique was to pull over
where possible and stop because two vehicles couldn't pass
in large sections. That was rebuilt in 2018 and is now an
absolute joy.

#2- WI Hwy 60 in front of our building is being replaced
this year. Sure it needs help, but I'm much less excited
because this will involve an assessment and months of dust.

#3- The loudest bitching about the Governor and road
maintenance usually centers on condition of city streets and
township roads which are not his problem. I don't much care
for The Current Occupant in the statehouse either but let's
hang him for his own sins.

And then there are bridges. I go over this one to see my brother. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVSTcKLJ5gw From above: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOmnC05Ou7w It's scary narrow, and its scheduled to be replaced as soon as the bridge toll piggy bank is full.

Looks like a normal two lane bridge built for trucks and automobiles,
one lane each way. What more could one want?

We have some nasty, broken-up neighborhood streets on the westside of Portland -- old concrete roads from the turn of the century -- and some nasty gravel/pot-holed roads in some of SE neighborhoods. OTOH, there are some really nice rural roads, and the arterials are in pretty good shape. It's the little capillary roads that can be bad.

-- Jay Beattie.

Goodness. Old? The turn of the century? You mean that the concrete
roads only last 20 years up there in the N.W. :-? Probably time to
find a new contractor :-)
--
cheers,

John B.


Yes, contractors.
There are finite number of licensed civil engineering
firms, yes bid collusion is a real thing, and the Highway
Commission is weighted heavily to ex-employees of the paving
companies.
Add to that the basic rule of infrastructure- it's much
cheaper to buy an inspector than build to plan.

Some years ago I read a news article that said that ALL the paving
contractors in the state of Illinois were in cahoots to control prices
and that they would under bid anyone that tried to break their
monopoly in order to drive them out of the business.

--
cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 20:30:54 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 6:47:53 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/18/2020 5:08 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 14:36:28 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:

“In 10 years, we’re going to start turning roads back into gravel” if
nothing changes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/b...sin-roads.html

As I've mentioned, Ohio has 88 counties. Some, like mine, have many more
miles of county roads than do others. But the state's funds distributed
for county road maintenence gives each county 1/88 of the total instead
of giving on a per-mile basis. I frequently see the effects when riding
from one county into another.

Are roads in the U.S. really as bad as described here? I grew up in
New England, went to school in Florida, lived in a number of states
including Ohio, Texas, Louisiana, California and Maine, drove coast to
coast a couple of times and while I wouldn't say that all the roads
were as smooth as a billiard table I would say that they were pretty
damned good.

Granted I left the U.S. in 1972 but have U.S. roads deteriorate from
"pretty damned good" to the wilderness of chuck holes that I see
described here?
--
cheers,

John B.


I'm also of the glass-half-full school on that. Are there
roads in poor repair? Sure. But there are long term
replacement schedules which can be reviewed at your State
DOT web site.

Example- WI Hwy 19 from Springfield Corners to Mazomanie, a
road I use weekly, was about 1/4 literally AWOL. With an
oncoming milk truck, the best technique was to pull over
where possible and stop because two vehicles couldn't pass
in large sections. That was rebuilt in 2018 and is now an
absolute joy.

#2- WI Hwy 60 in front of our building is being replaced
this year. Sure it needs help, but I'm much less excited
because this will involve an assessment and months of dust.

#3- The loudest bitching about the Governor and road
maintenance usually centers on condition of city streets and
township roads which are not his problem. I don't much care
for The Current Occupant in the statehouse either but let's
hang him for his own sins.

As I've stated, I ride and drive on U.S. highways, state highways, on, county roads, on township roads, on city and village streets. All
have different financing systems. I think most get funds from a mix
of sources; for example, local projects often get some state or
federal help.

One problem that's upcoming is the expected drop in gasoline sales
due to electric and hybrid cars. I know a person who recently bought
an electric car, and was surprised to find the licensing fees are
much higher than a gas car, supposedly to help make up that deficit.

I may need to change my attitude, and write thank you notes to the
dudes who buy huge pickup trucks.

- Frank Krygowski

Or join the crowd and buy an electric bicycle :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

Am 19.02.2020 um 06:43 schrieb John B.:
Yes, contractors.
There are finite number of licensed civil engineering
firms, yes bid collusion is a real thing, and the Highway
Commission is weighted heavily to ex-employees of the paving
companies.
Add to that the basic rule of infrastructure- it's much
cheaper to buy an inspector than build to plan.

Some years ago I read a news article that said that ALL the paving
contractors in the state of Illinois were in cahoots to control prices
and that they would under bid anyone that tried to break their
monopoly in order to drive them out of the business.

Ah, there is *some* benefit of the European "EU-wide contracting"
regulations. Without knowledge of the number of bids entered you cannot
bid differently depending on whther an out-of-state contractor is part
of the game.

Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, 18 February 2020 16:12:43 UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 8:36:32 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
“In 10 years, we’re going to start turning roads back into gravel� if
nothing changes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/b...sin-roads.html

As I've mentioned, Ohio has 88 counties. Some, like mine, have many more
miles of county roads than do others. But the state's funds distributed
for county road maintenence gives each county 1/88 of the total instead
of giving on a per-mile basis. I frequently see the effects when riding
from one county into another.


I can't complain about the condition of our country roads. They are well
maintained compared to Germany and Belgium were I ride also frequently
especially Germany. The roads in Belgium are awful. There are no borders
anymore but as soon as you cross the invisible Belgium border you now
immidiately you are in Belgium. Your fillings are rattling out of your teeth.

Lou
--
- Frank Krygowski

That's exactly what Duane says about riding from Quebec to Ontario Canada.

Cheers


Actually it’s what I said about riding from Ontario into Quebec. :-;

Though the roads around Hawkesbury seem to be moving to some form of
solidarity with La Belle Provence.

On 2/18/2020 11:43 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 22:18:17 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 2/18/2020 9:27 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 18:29:23 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 3:47:53 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/18/2020 5:08 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 14:36:28 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

“In 10 years, we’re going to start turning roads back into gravel” if
nothing changes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/b...sin-roads.html

As I've mentioned, Ohio has 88 counties. Some, like mine, have many more
miles of county roads than do others. But the state's funds distributed
for county road maintenence gives each county 1/88 of the total instead
of giving on a per-mile basis. I frequently see the effects when riding
from one county into another.

Are roads in the U.S. really as bad as described here? I grew up in
New England, went to school in Florida, lived in a number of states
including Ohio, Texas, Louisiana, California and Maine, drove coast to
coast a couple of times and while I wouldn't say that all the roads
were as smooth as a billiard table I would say that they were pretty
damned good.

Granted I left the U.S. in 1972 but have U.S. roads deteriorate from
"pretty damned good" to the wilderness of chuck holes that I see
described here?
--
cheers,

John B.


I'm also of the glass-half-full school on that. Are there
roads in poor repair? Sure. But there are long term
replacement schedules which can be reviewed at your State
DOT web site.

Example- WI Hwy 19 from Springfield Corners to Mazomanie, a
road I use weekly, was about 1/4 literally AWOL. With an
oncoming milk truck, the best technique was to pull over
where possible and stop because two vehicles couldn't pass
in large sections. That was rebuilt in 2018 and is now an
absolute joy.

#2- WI Hwy 60 in front of our building is being replaced
this year. Sure it needs help, but I'm much less excited
because this will involve an assessment and months of dust.

#3- The loudest bitching about the Governor and road
maintenance usually centers on condition of city streets and
township roads which are not his problem. I don't much care
for The Current Occupant in the statehouse either but let's
hang him for his own sins.

And then there are bridges. I go over this one to see my brother. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVSTcKLJ5gw From above: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOmnC05Ou7w It's scary narrow, and its scheduled to be replaced as soon as the bridge toll piggy bank is full.

Looks like a normal two lane bridge built for trucks and automobiles,
one lane each way. What more could one want?

We have some nasty, broken-up neighborhood streets on the westside of Portland -- old concrete roads from the turn of the century -- and some nasty gravel/pot-holed roads in some of SE neighborhoods. OTOH, there are some really nice rural roads, and the arterials are in pretty good shape. It's the little capillary roads that can be bad.

-- Jay Beattie.

Goodness. Old? The turn of the century? You mean that the concrete
roads only last 20 years up there in the N.W. :-? Probably time to
find a new contractor :-)
--
cheers,

John B.


Yes, contractors.
There are finite number of licensed civil engineering
firms, yes bid collusion is a real thing, and the Highway
Commission is weighted heavily to ex-employees of the paving
companies.
Add to that the basic rule of infrastructure- it's much
cheaper to buy an inspector than build to plan.

Some years ago I read a news article that said that ALL the paving
contractors in the state of Illinois were in cahoots to control prices
and that they would under bid anyone that tried to break their
monopoly in order to drive them out of the business.

--
cheers,

John B.


Mafia concrete is a well known phenomenon but there's also
the asphalt (Chicago pronunciation 'ash-falt') racket:

https://www.enr.com/articles/48602-e...ands?v=preview

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971