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  #81  
Old September 4th 17, 03:40 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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On 9/3/2017 11:06 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Sun, 03 Sep 2017 13:32:48 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
Without an educated populace the gatekeepers are powerless and wishing
for an educated population is a fool's dream. And here we are.


Yep. And unfortunately there is a large percentage of the American
population who have opted to be stupid and proud of it.

I have said this before and will say it again. I have for decades
thought that a class in logic ought to be required in every high school.
In a participatory form of government- like, you know, democracy, a
basic level of non-idiocy is required for success.

Unfortunately someone decided that "education creates liberals," and
thus far too many politicians have decided to oppose competent public
education (at least here, don't know about other parts of the country).


ISTM the "education creates liberals" effort is concentrating on
denigrating university professors and college education. There's a
gaggle of right-wing columnists who dig deep to find admittedly silly
things occurring in some schools and leap to statements that academia is
totally worthless.

I think the tactic with K-12 has been entirely different. Corporations
have focused on bad results from inner-city schools and gamed the system
to promote, then run, for-profit charter schools. Then they've gotten
rich by siphoning off the tax dollars.

In Ohio, at least, these for-profit charter schools were promising to
provide far better educations. But they've consistently delivered no
better and often far worse results. After years of educational failure,
many were closed down by the state, but later re-formed with most of the
same administrators under a new name, as a "new" school that rakes in
yet more taxpayer money.

As a bonus, for years they were exempt from many of the standards that
public schools must meet. Oh, and they pay teachers far less while
paying administrators far more.

Here I'll sound like a conservative: schools need to have standards and
accountability for behavior and educational performance, parents (or
someone in the home) need to be actively involved in their children's
scholastic life.


I'll agree, although bad family background makes it damned hard to get
kids to behave and perform. Society seems to look at kids with absent
fathers, layabout mothers, ramshackle homes and gang-banger role models,
and blame the teachers for not turning those kids into hard-working
geniuses.

And we need to recognize that not everyone wants to or
is able to attend college successfully, which seems to be the current
goal of Americam education policy; there should be multiple educational
tracks available to help students acquire the skills they need to be
successful.


I absolutely agree.


--
- Frank Krygowski
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  #82  
Old September 4th 17, 05:52 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 10:24:47 AM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
Snipped
Well, you can pass the cost of wages along in price, assuming price elasticity. Smokers don't have a similar option for increasing revenues to cover the cost of cigarettes -- so the markets do operate differently. Paying a higher minimum wage also stimulates the economy because workers have more buying power. It's trickle-up instead of trickle-down. My son earned sh** in a bike shop and then took all his earnings and bought a bike from the shop.. Good discount, but still a money maker for the shop.

-- Jay Beattie.


But how long before the price increases due to the mimimum wage increase negates the minimum wage increase? It seems to negate it pretty quickly here.

Cheers
  #83  
Old September 4th 17, 07:45 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 9:52:22 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 10:24:47 AM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
Snipped
Well, you can pass the cost of wages along in price, assuming price elasticity. Smokers don't have a similar option for increasing revenues to cover the cost of cigarettes -- so the markets do operate differently. Paying a higher minimum wage also stimulates the economy because workers have more buying power. It's trickle-up instead of trickle-down. My son earned sh** in a bike shop and then took all his earnings and bought a bike from the shop. Good discount, but still a money maker for the shop.

-- Jay Beattie.


But how long before the price increases due to the mimimum wage increase negates the minimum wage increase? It seems to negate it pretty quickly here.


Depends on the market and the amount increase in minimum wage, and I'm not saying there should be an astronomical minimum wage. I'm just saying that the market effect of raising minimum wage is complex and not like the effect of spiking the price of cigarettes. It is not some form of economic punishment to curb unhealthy behavior.

-- Jay Beattie.





  #84  
Old September 4th 17, 08:01 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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On Sunday, September 3, 2017 at 11:32:22 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/2/2017 6:30 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/2/2017 4:49 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per :
High numbers of deaths from hospital acquired infections
really only tells you that the general population is not
very healthy.

And in the USA that is primarily from a large illegal and
legal immigrant population that has arrived from
countries that do not have particularly good health.

How about antibiotic-resistant strains of bacteria like
MERSA?


That's the fault of the liberals. Tom will explain how.



He may well, but it's an equal-time offense.

One of our customers heads up the antibiotic abuse research
section at Inst. Pasteur in France. He corroborates a
Milwaukee GP's complaint that mothers bring in children with
viruses and insist on antibiotics right now. No prescription
= 'bad doctor', a label which can devastate a clinic's
practice as the mothers all gossip. Similar problem with
opiates for every little thing. Without an educated populace
the gatekeepers are powerless and wishing for an educated
population is a fool's dream. And here we are.


Most pains I solve with Aleve or Tylenol. But that big crash I had late last year gave me back pains so severe that nothing would work. The doctor grudgingly prescribe Hydrocodone - a synthetic opioid. That would knock out the pain for about 5 hours so I could get some sleep. It took about a week for the pain to subside so I quit them as fast as possible. And damn if I didn't feel addiction pangs. They aren't kidding when they say these sorts of things are addictive and that 80% of opioid addicts are from these pills.

A friend just had a pretty severe fall hit her elbow and they prescribed Vicadin. This is a combination of Hydrocodone and Acetaminophen. They are trying to get doctors to really stand down on prescribing this but the pain relief is so good that there's nothing to replace it.
  #85  
Old September 4th 17, 08:04 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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On Sunday, September 3, 2017 at 4:02:33 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/3/2017 2:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/2/2017 6:30 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/2/2017 4:49 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per :
High numbers of deaths from hospital acquired infections
really only tells you that the general population is not
very healthy.

And in the USA that is primarily from a large illegal and
legal immigrant population that has arrived from
countries that do not have particularly good health.

How about antibiotic-resistant strains of bacteria like
MERSA?

That's the fault of the liberals. Tom will explain how.



He may well, but it's an equal-time offense.

One of our customers heads up the antibiotic abuse research section at
Inst. Pasteur in France. He corroborates a Milwaukee GP's complaint that
mothers bring in children with viruses and insist on antibiotics right
now. No prescription = 'bad doctor', a label which can devastate a
clinic's practice as the mothers all gossip. Similar problem with
opiates for every little thing. Without an educated populace the
gatekeepers are powerless and wishing for an educated population is a
fool's dream. And here we are.


I've thought about that when battling my annual upper respiratory
maladies. Without going into too much detail, it's been a recurring
problem, sometimes getting quite bad. After a couple years of
recurrences, my physician became very quick to prescribe antibiotics for
me, even though there's been doubt about bacteria vs. virus vs. allergy.

As you've said, any particular physician experiences a downside to
saying "no" when antibiotics are requested. And for the particular
physician, there really isn't an upside to saying "no" - he gets no
bonus points. This means that even in the absence of pleading, if
there's some small chance antibiotics might work, he may as well
prescribe them.

The good news is this problem is temporary. Once the bacteria adapt
sufficiently, they'll reduce our population density to the point where
contagion is much less of an issue. Nobody will worry much about
over-prescribed antibiotics, or lots of other modern problems. It'll be
a golden age!


Frank - being immune to antibiotics doesn't mean that the bacteria are any more dangerous to the human body. In fact in many cases the bacteria often become less dangerous.
  #86  
Old September 4th 17, 08:10 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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On Sunday, September 3, 2017 at 7:17:33 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 3 Sep 2017 09:18:20 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Saturday, September 2, 2017 at 7:03:38 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 02 Sep 2017 08:17:03 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 9/1/2017 9:30 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 1 Sep 2017 10:10:59 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 9:13:45 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 7:15:19 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 7:39:26 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:

Are you telling me that a Thai can go to a clinic and have a $500,000 panoramic x-ray taken of his jaw? How many of these clinics are there? How many doctors trained in doing a sinus lift that requires donated bone material to achieve? That requires three different medications before and afterwards top stave off infections?

Yup. Anything that the doctor orders. Specifically a panoramic x-ray I
do not know but if the government hospitals have the device then yes.
free.

You don't seem to be following me John. The numbers and costs of spectacular medical instruments in the USA is staggering. And these will often be in a private doctor's office. These are not available in Thailand any more than they are in European villages or even in Great Britain outside of the major cities.

The weakness of socialized medicine is that it cannot afford the advancements.

Hmmm. Seems like Thailand has a thriving MRI medical tourism business.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=-nt4-tavqXU

MRI units are more common in Japan than the US.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ts-by-country/ Note that Japan has "socialized insurance" and the cost of medical care is regulated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health...ystem_in_Japan

Panoramic x-ray machines are mundane. You can buy on on the internet. Get a cheap one for home: https://www.dentalplanet.com/x-ray-e...CABEgLdvPD_BwE

Amazingly, people in other countries -- almost all of which have socialized medicine and/or socialized insurance with highly regulated medicine -- live long and useful lives. https://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunr.../#7a03c90e576f http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publ.../mirror-mirror We're dead last compared to a dozen commie-socialist countries.

Jay - does looking at the seating capacity of the waiting area for that MRI clinic not ring a very loud bell? And exactly what do you think that MRI's do? They were developed to display interior muscle composition and they really aren't very effective without contrast material injected into the proper area.

There are two and a half times as many doctors per 100,000 people in the US as in Japan. Three times what Great Britain has. Twenty times the doctors per 100,000 in Thailand.

What in God's name makes you think that people go through years and years of training to make almost nothing under socialized medicine?

No matter HOW cheap it is, if you cannot find a competent doctor to treat you you have nothing.

Life expectancy in the world's nations seems to be the highest in
Japan with a (combined male/female) life expectancy of 83.7 years.
Switzerland is next with 83.4 years, then Singapore with 83.1.

The U.K. is #20 with 81.2 years and the U.S. is #31 with 79.3, which
is between Costa Rica with 70.6 and Cuba with 79.1.

Life expectancy at birth (2015) looks even bleaker:
Hong Kong #1 with 83.74 years, than Japan with 83.31, and Italy with
82.84 while the U.S. is #43 with 78.88.


Tell us more about the competent doctors.

We USAians drive more (miles/hours per year), drive faster,
do more drugs with or without alcohol and engage in other
oft-fatal behaviors more than many populations.

More miles (kilometers) yes but highway fatalities? I believe that
Thailand is one of the front runners in that race with 74.6 fatalities
per 100,000 autos. Per capita it is 36.2/100,000 residents.

As for drug use I'm just not sure but we probably average 3 - 4 news
reports a month about "X million Ya Ba pills found in pickup truck"
(Ya Ba (crazy medicine) is the local name for tablets containing a
mixture of methamphetamine and caffeine.

We lose roughly 20,000 more people to ODs than to car wrecks
the last few years. Oh, you want to bring in health care? We
also kill more people in hospital-acquired infection than
car wrecks, too. Not 'infection' but _hospital acquired_
infection. They're pros!

And we wouldn't have it any other way!

:-) And your nation's expenditure for "defense" is higher then the
next eight nations in the entire world, combined. Nearly 3 times that
of China.

Didn't President Eisenhower once say something about that?

"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition
of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the
military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of
misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight
of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We
should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable
citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and
military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so
that security and liberty may prosper together."

He also said :
"As we peer into society's future, we, you and I, and our government,
must avoid the impulse to live only for today, plundering for our own
ease and convenience the precious resources of tomorrow. We cannot
mortgage the material assets of our grandchildren without risking the
loss also of their political and spiritual heritage. We want democracy
to survive for all generations to come, not to become the insolvent
phantom of tomorrow.

Ah, but of course he was an old fashioned sort of fellow and not "New
Age" at all, why he never even had a hand phone to peer at. What did
he know?


Ding dong Kim Jong-un just detonated a hydrogen bomb that can fit on the warhead of an ICBM that he also just tested.

Now maybe you don't think that the military spending of this country is worthwhile but we do.


And exactly what does military spending have to do with preventing the
N. Koreans from having a nuclear weapon?

Given that they have it in spite of the fantastic amounts handed over
to the "defense department" it is obvious that it has done no good at
all.

Maybe if the had given the military more it would have worked better?


That military spending has given us three means of intercepting ICBM's anywhere from as they leave the launching pad to the midpoint in the trajectory..

And it has given us the ability to absolutely destroy the entire launching areas with absolute pin-point accuracy. Kim Jong-un is building a nuclear arsenal because that puts the reins of power in his own hands. The North Korean military is starving to death and would be unable to wage war for more than a month. It is likely that confronted with the military might of S. Korea, the USA and GB, that they would shoot their own officers and surrender..

If we take away Kim Jong-un's power via total destruction of his missiles and nuclear weapons his is nothing.

And THAT is what the vast military spending of the USA is for.
  #87  
Old September 4th 17, 08:26 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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On Sunday, September 3, 2017 at 7:33:46 PM UTC-7, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Sat, 02 Sep 2017 15:02:04 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/2/2017 2:37 PM, wrote:

I worked on many medical instruments and the company managers didn't
want us to even go into hospitals during tests. Every possible
bacteria is floating around ANY hospital. High numbers of deaths from
hospital acquired infections really only tells you that the general
population is not very healthy.

And in the USA that is primarily from a large illegal and legal
immigrant population that has arrived from countries that do not have
particularly good health.


That's true, and historically very high at the moment.


No, it's not true that legal and illegal immigrants are to blame for
this. Most of the burden of health care costs in America are the result
of treating chronic illnesses: hypertension, hyperlipidemia, obesity,
diabetes, COPD, arthritis, etc. Most of those are "natural born"
Americans


Tim, this isn't a question. Many of these diseases that are in hospitals were conquered in the USA a hundred years ago. We are seeing Typhoid Fever for crying out loud! Cholera is almost universally in third world countries with polluted water supplies. Americans for the most part are vaccinated for pneumonia so why is a something like 1.1 million cases of hospital deaths in the US from pneumonia? Today we lose something like 50,000 mostly kids from influenza because the variations are brought into this country from foreign countries and the influenza vaccines can miss these newer variations.

Malaria is a mosquito born disease that has to be carried by a mosquito biting someone that already has it. This is from third world people.

Legionnaire's disease is a hospital disease. Infected people cough the bacteria into the air around them and other's with weakened immune systems inhale and are infected. Where does it come from? Warm fresh water areas - central and south America.

Even Anthrax is beginning to show up. This stuff kills un-vaccinated cows and is spread via third world people showing up in US hospitals.

Most of these diseases do NOT come from China.

Nor am I saying that once here they should not be treated. But at least accept that this is happening for crying out loud.
  #88  
Old September 4th 17, 08:32 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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On Sunday, September 3, 2017 at 8:28:01 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 3 Sep 2017 09:44:43 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Saturday, September 2, 2017 at 8:29:00 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:

I believe that your, much described, brain damage is showing up in
your posts. What in the world does the amount that a U.S. doctor is
paid have to do with the wealth of a Thai doctor.


I'm becoming more and more sure that your brain damage is effecting
your posts as we aren't discussing a socialized medicine system. In
fact in rereading the above I mentioned "government service", "private
hospitals" and that "doctors that work in government hospitals have
private clinics".


Exactly what are you arguing? A Thai doctor can't even afford an American medical education unless after graduation he works in America for a couple of years.


I can only say that I have known at least three doctors that I am
certain obtained their medical education and were board certified in
the U.S. One of whom was the Senior Surgeon in the USAF hospital at
Takhili RTAFB in 1969, under contact to the U.S. Air Force.

In addition it is quite possible for a Thai who is a graduate MD to
obtain a redundancy in a U.S. hospital and obtain his board
qualifications.

"In addition, Sondheimer said that it is fairly common for graduates
of foreign medical schools to do their residency in America. We are
not graduating enough graduates in the U.S. to fill all the first year
residency positions, he said. So the rest of those spots get filled
by people from overseas medical schools."

(Dr. Henry Sondheimer, the senior director of medical education at the
AAMC (Association of American Medical Colleges).

Good Lord, the recent King's father attended medical school in the
U.S.


John - you just said again the same thing I did. What is going on in your head?
  #89  
Old September 4th 17, 08:36 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 6:07:19 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/3/2017 10:06 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Sun, 03 Sep 2017 13:32:48 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
Without an educated populace the gatekeepers are powerless and wishing
for an educated population is a fool's dream. And here we are.


Yep. And unfortunately there is a large percentage of the American
population who have opted to be stupid and proud of it.

I have said this before and will say it again. I have for decades
thought that a class in logic ought to be required in every high school.
In a participatory form of government- like, you know, democracy, a
basic level of non-idiocy is required for success.

Unfortunately someone decided that "education creates liberals," and
thus far too many politicians have decided to oppose competent public
education (at least here, don't know about other parts of the country).
Here I'll sound like a conservative: schools need to have standards and
accountability for behavior and educational performance, parents (or
someone in the home) need to be actively involved in their children's
scholastic life. And we need to recognize that not everyone wants to or
is able to attend college successfully, which seems to be the current
goal of Americam education policy; there should be multiple educational
tracks available to help students acquire the skills they need to be
successful.

One thing I heard from Trump a while back was having some sort of system
for apprenticeships, which Germany- probably among others- has done with
success for decades; haven't heard a peep about it since, so maybe it
fell off the radar. I think that would be a good idea. In my state we
seem intent on dismantling the trade schools because of the emphasis on
college as the be-all and end-all of education.


I see the problems much as you do but out in the real world,
"everyone ought to..." scares the crap out of me.

My youngest brother was a football player at a major
university, functionally illiterate yet with a 4-year degree
and fantastic GPA. After a few lost years he finally cleaned
himself up, completed an MBA and turned out OK while many of
his cohort never survived the post football years of alcohol
drugs and general dissolution. You make a rule and half the
staff will go around it either through indolence or avarice.


All of what you say is true from my viewpoint. But I believe that the leftists are purposely maintaining ignorance or worse in the population so that they might more easily control them.
  #90  
Old September 4th 17, 08:38 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 6:14:32 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/4/2017 12:49 AM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 03 Sep 2017 22:06:16 -0500, Tim McNamara
wrote:

On Sun, 03 Sep 2017 13:32:48 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
Without an educated populace the gatekeepers are powerless and wishing
for an educated population is a fool's dream. And here we are.

Yep. And unfortunately there is a large percentage of the American
population who have opted to be stupid and proud of it.

I have said this before and will say it again. I have for decades
thought that a class in logic ought to be required in every high school.
In a participatory form of government- like, you know, democracy, a
basic level of non-idiocy is required for success.

Unfortunately someone decided that "education creates liberals," and
thus far too many politicians have decided to oppose competent public
education (at least here, don't know about other parts of the country).
Here I'll sound like a conservative: schools need to have standards and
accountability for behavior and educational performance, parents (or
someone in the home) need to be actively involved in their children's
scholastic life. And we need to recognize that not everyone wants to or
is able to attend college successfully, which seems to be the current
goal of Americam education policy; there should be multiple educational
tracks available to help students acquire the skills they need to be
successful.

One thing I heard from Trump a while back was having some sort of system
for apprenticeships, which Germany- probably among others- has done with
success for decades; haven't heard a peep about it since, so maybe it
fell off the radar. I think that would be a good idea. In my state we
seem intent on dismantling the trade schools because of the emphasis on
college as the be-all and end-all of education.


Apprenticeship used to be a method of learning a trade. Abraham
Lincoln, I believe, "read for the law" which was realistically an
apprenticeship program.

It eventually became a term used to describe a learning period for the
manual trades (one might call them) and then the manual trades became
obsolete. Does anyone get up in the middle of the night to knead
tomorrow's bread? Or dig a ditch by hand?

I completed an apprenticeship to be a "Machinist", although I
subsequently went to an engineering school, but I can remember as
early as the mid-late 1960's that very little work for a qualified
machinist existed. One or maybe two in a big shop and the rest were
machine operators.

I know that The Donald talked about apprenticeships, and increasing
employment, and increasing minimum salaries, and reducing costs, and,
and, but I haven't seen much progress being made.

Now there is an exercise in logic. (1) Increase wages which certainly
contributes to higher sales prices, and (2) reduce costs?



Mayor Comerade Bill in NYC says that increasing cigarette
taxes will stop smoking but increasing the minimum wage will
not stop employment.

Hey Tim McNamara - could you loan him a logic textbook?


In California they just had a perfect example - they increased wages and lost many jobs to automation. So what have the done about this? Demanded higher minimum wages.
 




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