Custom optics..

I emailed a company that makes lenses for LEDs about the possibility of
having a lens made to create a beam shape similar to that of a car low
beam headlight. Here's the reply...

quote

Hi James,

Thank you for your enquiry to POL.

Yes, what you are asking for is quite possible, as we have carried out
similar designs for head-lamps for sports and orienteering applications,
with similar beam characteristics.

However, the costs for these custom designed optics are very high, so you
would have to be quite sure of your future volumes to justify it. Typically,
the design exercise would be around £2-2.5K and take 3-4 weeks to complete.
We would then need to make tooling to injection mould the parts - the lowest
cost route would be to make inserts to suit one of our existing standard
optic formats, which would cost around £5-6K. If a stand-alone single
impression tool were required, this would be around £12-15K!

The component prices will be batch dependant and will be, as follows (price
each, ex works):

100…………….£3.75
1k………………£2.50
5k …………….£1.25
10K……………£0.95
20K…………..£0.50

I hope this helps.

/quote

So it's possible, but a little costly for a low volume application.
There's likely a company in China that would do it for half the price!

--
JS

On Monday, October 14, 2013 5:33:06 PM UTC-4, James wrote:

So it's possible, but a little costly for a low volume application.
There's likely a company in China that would do it for half the price!

Hmm. If we can get Bill Gates interested in biking at night, plus geeking out by building his own homebrew headlights, then the Gates foundation could step in...

But it does illustrate that if the market were there (say, if the U.S. had some reasonable standards for bike headlights) that such things might be pretty easy to buy and not very expensive. How many round-beam LED bike headlights do you estimate are sold every year? Quite a few, I'm sure.

- Frank Krygowski

On Monday, October 14, 2013 2:33:06 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
I emailed a company that makes lenses for LEDs about the possibility of
having a lens made to create a beam shape similar to that of a car low
beam headlight. Here's the reply...

quote

Hi James,

Thank you for your enquiry to POL.

Yes, what you are asking for is quite possible, as we have carried out
similar designs for head-lamps for sports and orienteering applications,
with similar beam characteristics.

However, the costs for these custom designed optics are very high, so you
would have to be quite sure of your future volumes to justify it. Typically,
the design exercise would be around �2-2.5K and take 3-4 weeks to complete.
We would then need to make tooling to injection mould the parts - the lowest
cost route would be to make inserts to suit one of our existing standard
optic formats, which would cost around �5-6K. If a stand-alone single
impression tool were required, this would be around �12-15K!

The component prices will be batch dependant and will be, as follows (price
each, ex works):

100�����.�3.75
1k�������2.50
5k �����.�1.25
10K������0.95
20K����..�0.50

I hope this helps.

/quote


So it's possible, but a little costly for a low volume application.
There's likely a company in China that would do it for half the price!


I'm sure they'll be glad to take your money, but lenses alone won't
do it. The whole collimator business is more complicated for LED's.

On 15/10/13 10:06, Dan O wrote:
On Monday, October 14, 2013 2:33:06 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
I emailed a company that makes lenses for LEDs about the possibility of
having a lens made to create a beam shape similar to that of a car low
beam headlight. Here's the reply...

quote

Hi James,

Thank you for your enquiry to POL.

Yes, what you are asking for is quite possible, as we have carried out
similar designs for head-lamps for sports and orienteering applications,
with similar beam characteristics.

However, the costs for these custom designed optics are very high, so you
would have to be quite sure of your future volumes to justify it. Typically,
the design exercise would be around �2-2.5K and take 3-4 weeks to complete.
We would then need to make tooling to injection mould the parts - the lowest
cost route would be to make inserts to suit one of our existing standard
optic formats, which would cost around �5-6K. If a stand-alone single
impression tool were required, this would be around �12-15K!

The component prices will be batch dependant and will be, as follows (price
each, ex works):

100�����.�3.75
1k�������2.50
5k �����.�1.25
10K������0.95
20K����..�0.50

I hope this helps.

/quote


So it's possible, but a little costly for a low volume application.
There's likely a company in China that would do it for half the price!


I'm sure they'll be glad to take your money, but lenses alone won't
do it. The whole collimator business is more complicated for LED's.


I don't understand what you are talking about. I explained what I
wanted. They said they have made similar designs already, and gave
indicative prices.

Are you calling this reputable UK company a bunch of liars?

--
JS

not only do they lie cheat and steel but are criminal deviants...

https://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&t...+salvage+parts

James writes:

On 15/10/13 10:06, Dan O wrote:
On Monday, October 14, 2013 2:33:06 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
I emailed a company that makes lenses for LEDs about the possibility of
having a lens made to create a beam shape similar to that of a car low
beam headlight. Here's the reply...

quote

Hi James,

Thank you for your enquiry to POL.

Yes, what you are asking for is quite possible, as we have carried out
similar designs for head-lamps for sports and orienteering applications,
with similar beam characteristics.

However, the costs for these custom designed optics are very high, so you
would have to be quite sure of your future volumes to justify it. Typically,
the design exercise would be around �2-2.5K and take 3-4 weeks to complete.
We would then need to make tooling to injection mould the parts - the lowest
cost route would be to make inserts to suit one of our existing standard
optic formats, which would cost around �5-6K. If a stand-alone single
impression tool were required, this would be around �12-15K!

The component prices will be batch dependant and will be, as follows (price
each, ex works):

100�����.�3.75
1k�������2.50
5k �����.�1.25
10K������0.95
20K����..�0.50

I hope this helps.

/quote


So it's possible, but a little costly for a low volume application.
There's likely a company in China that would do it for half the price!


I'm sure they'll be glad to take your money, but lenses alone won't
do it. The whole collimator business is more complicated for LED's.


I don't understand what you are talking about. I explained what I
wanted. They said they have made similar designs already, and gave
indicative prices.

Are you calling this reputable UK company a bunch of liars?


No, not at all. And I don't know the technical details - was
just throwing out my impression.

I also see now that you mention they already make lenses for
LED applications, so know what they're doing (I guess).

I know some guys bought lenses on ebay purported to optimize LED
lights, and didn't like them. (I also don't see them taking the
world by storm.)

So am I to understand that in the _whole world_ there's not
enough demand for optimized bicycle headlights to spin up
production? Inconceivable!

(Boy they're sure going to be sorry they missed the boat when
Frank becomes mayor of Germantown, Ohio, then National Proper
Cycling Tsar.)

It will be interesting to see what is up around the bend.

On Monday, October 14, 2013 10:33:06 PM UTC+1, James wrote:
I emailed a company that makes lenses for LEDs about the possibility of

having a lens made to create a beam shape similar to that of a car low

beam headlight. Here's the reply...



quote



Hi James,



Thank you for your enquiry to POL.



Yes, what you are asking for is quite possible, as we have carried out

similar designs for head-lamps for sports and orienteering applications,

with similar beam characteristics.



However, the costs for these custom designed optics are very high, so you

would have to be quite sure of your future volumes to justify it. Typically,

the design exercise would be around £2-2.5K and take 3-4 weeks to complete.

We would then need to make tooling to injection mould the parts - the lowest

cost route would be to make inserts to suit one of our existing standard

optic formats, which would cost around £5-6K. If a stand-alone single

impression tool were required, this would be around £12-15K!



The component prices will be batch dependant and will be, as follows (price

each, ex works):



100…………….£3.75

1k………………£2.50

5k …………….£1.25

10K……………£0.95

20K…………..£0.50



I hope this helps.



/quote



So it's possible, but a little costly for a low volume application.

There's likely a company in China that would do it for half the price!



--

JS

That's pretty cheap, actually, for prototype work in Europe. When I wanted a fully triangulated bike built out of small diameter double-butted thinwall stainless steel tube, the only people interested quoted Euro 90k for the first prototype, and wanted to own the design or load the proto fee further.. If they had knocked off a zero, or had the sense to offer me royalties if I let them have the design, something I understand because I've done it all my life, I might have gone for it. As it was, this happened just when Chalo told me I was making a mistake in dismissing Utopia as an off-the shelf supplier of a bicycle functionally very near to what I wanted, and when i took another look at Utopia's bikes, I chose instant gratification rather than a two-year development process, and have been very happy since.

Generally speaking -- though i might be teaching my grandmother to suck eggs -- it pays to design your own ideal unit or component of whatever, because it clarifies what exactly you want in your mind, and then for economy to buy the nearest thing available off the shelf.

Note -- apologies if you know already -- that what makes the Cyo special isn't a collimator lens but the shape of the reflector into which a reversed, unlensed LED, shines to be reflected forward through the lens onto the road.

Andre Jute

On 15/10/13 23:09, Andre Jute wrote:
On Monday, October 14, 2013 10:33:06 PM UTC+1, James wrote:
I emailed a company that makes lenses for LEDs about the
possibility of having a lens made to create a beam shape
similar to that of a car low beam headlight. Here's the reply...

snip

So it's possible, but a little costly for a low volume application.


There's likely a company in China that would do it for half the
price!


That's pretty cheap, actually, for prototype work in Europe. When I
wanted a fully triangulated bike built out of small diameter
double-butted thinwall stainless steel tube, the only people
interested quoted Euro 90k for the first prototype, and wanted to own
the design or load the proto fee further. If they had knocked off a
zero, or had the sense to offer me royalties if I let them have the
design, something I understand because I've done it all my life, I
might have gone for it. As it was, this happened just when Chalo told
me I was making a mistake in dismissing Utopia as an off-the shelf
supplier of a bicycle functionally very near to what I wanted, and
when i took another look at Utopia's bikes, I chose instant
gratification rather than a two-year development process, and have
been very happy since.

Yeah, I was expecting the order of magnitude they quoted. I've had
various things fabricated as part of my day job, and the amounts are not
out of the ball park by any means.

Generally speaking -- though i might be teaching my grandmother to
suck eggs -- it pays to design your own ideal unit or component of
whatever, because it clarifies what exactly you want in your mind,
and then for economy to buy the nearest thing available off the
shelf.

I guess it's the availability and suitability of "the nearest thing"
that is a problem. There's a plastics manufacturing company I've worked
with nearby that might be able to help fabricate a one off for me to
tinker with. I've seen the basic design of the collimator from the
company I emailed. It doesn't look very difficult to "copy" and modify.

Note -- apologies if you know already -- that what makes the Cyo
special isn't a collimator lens but the shape of the reflector into
which a reversed, unlensed LED, shines to be reflected forward
through the lens onto the road.

I didn't know that. I'm curious now how they keep the LED cool enough.
They need to dissipate about 2-3 Watts I presume. Is the LED mounted
on an Al pedestal or something?

--
JS

On Tuesday, October 15, 2013 11:50:06 PM UTC+1, James wrote:
On 15/10/13 23:09, Andre Jute wrote:

Note -- apologies if you know already -- that what makes the Cyo

special isn't a collimator lens but the shape of the reflector into

which a reversed, unlensed LED, shines to be reflected forward

through the lens onto the road.

I didn't know that. I'm curious now how they keep the LED cool enough.

They need to dissipate about 2-3 Watts I presume. Is the LED mounted

on an Al pedestal or something?

The entire lamp is a heatsink. It's an ugly little lamp, but as a piece of Bauhaus design you can't fault it: form follows function.

There is also circulating fresh air aiding the cooling on a Cyo. BUMM assumes that their users will use mudguards, so the undersides of their lamps aren't watertight and can be, and sometimes are, ruined by water splashed upward by bare tires.(1) This was the case even when they used first glowing filaments and then halogen lamps, so it was a convenient design feature to carry forward to the LED lamps. But it comes as a nasty, expensive surprise to roadies with their bare wheels that expensive German lamps aren't even as waterproof as basic Chinese lamps... BUMM, weirdly for a company all of whose products are for bicycles, vehicles open to the elements, have zero idea about how water flows. The best of the Luxos lamps, several hundred dollars, is simply ruined by the fact that the handlebar switch isn't waterproof and the stupid USB port is simply a water trap. A bicycle lamp switch that isn't waterproof is dangerous, possibly lethal. BUMM's "solution" is to mount it upside down where you can't reach it...

(1) Now listen to the little BUMMbuddies screech that I am a liar, until they inspect their lamps and discover I'm right, again, as always, at which point they'll sullenly change tack, without apologizing, of course. No brains, no manners, no grace.

Andre Jute
Nobody's captive market

James wrote:
:On 15/10/13 23:09, Andre Jute wrote:
: On Monday, October 14, 2013 10:33:06 PM UTC+1, James wrote:
: I emailed a company that makes lenses for LEDs about the
: possibility of having a lens made to create a beam shape
: similar to that of a car low beam headlight. Here's the reply...

:snip

: So it's possible, but a little costly for a low volume application.
:
:
: There's likely a company in China that would do it for half the
: price!
:
:
: That's pretty cheap, actually, for prototype work in Europe. When I
: wanted a fully triangulated bike built out of small diameter
: double-butted thinwall stainless steel tube, the only people
: interested quoted Euro 90k for the first prototype, and wanted to own
: the design or load the proto fee further. If they had knocked off a
: zero, or had the sense to offer me royalties if I let them have the
: design, something I understand because I've done it all my life, I
: might have gone for it. As it was, this happened just when Chalo told
: me I was making a mistake in dismissing Utopia as an off-the shelf
: supplier of a bicycle functionally very near to what I wanted, and
: when i took another look at Utopia's bikes, I chose instant
: gratification rather than a two-year development process, and have
: been very happy since.

:Yeah, I was expecting the order of magnitude they quoted. I've had
:various things fabricated as part of my day job, and the amounts are not
ut of the ball park by any means.

: Generally speaking -- though i might be teaching my grandmother to
: suck eggs -- it pays to design your own ideal unit or component of
: whatever, because it clarifies what exactly you want in your mind,
: and then for economy to buy the nearest thing available off the
: shelf.

:I guess it's the availability and suitability of "the nearest thing"
:that is a problem. There's a plastics manufacturing company I've worked
:with nearby that might be able to help fabricate a one off for me to
:tinker with. I've seen the basic design of the collimator from the
:company I emailed. It doesn't look very difficult to "copy" and modify.

: Note -- apologies if you know already -- that what makes the Cyo
: special isn't a collimator lens but the shape of the reflector into
: which a reversed, unlensed LED, shines to be reflected forward
: through the lens onto the road.

:I didn't know that. I'm curious now how they keep the LED cool enough.
: They need to dissipate about 2-3 Watts I presume. Is the LED mounted
n an Al pedestal or something?

It's mounted on something, yes. I've not taken apart.

--
sig 118