Helmet Article

https://www.singletracks.com/mtb-new...g-concussions/

It isn't clear to me why they would cry MIPS which really has no significant effect in a crash. They would have to add a cross motion to their testing procedure to even detect it.

On Wednesday, August 26, 2020 at 12:40:08 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
https://www.singletracks.com/mtb-new...g-concussions/

It isn't clear to me why they would cry MIPS which really has no significant effect in a crash. They would have to add a cross motion to their testing procedure to even detect it.

Uh, you mean like:

"A dummy head with sensors is placed inside the helmet and fitted to the helmet’s standards. The NOSCAE headform has three sensors that detect linear acceleration and a triaxis angular rate sensor which measures linear and rotational impact characteristics."

and

"The bicycle STAR equation is calculated the same way, taking into account how likely it is to experience a concussion based on impact location and velocity. Concussion risk is calculated as a combination of average peak resultant linear acceleration and average peak resultant change in rotation velocity in each impact configuration."

It seems pretty obvious that they're measuring rotational forces -- which are reduced in some measure by MIPS. But then again, I just read the article and do not claim to be a world famous engineer.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Wednesday, August 26, 2020 at 2:10:45 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, August 26, 2020 at 12:40:08 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
https://www.singletracks.com/mtb-new...g-concussions/

It isn't clear to me why they would cry MIPS which really has no significant effect in a crash. They would have to add a cross motion to their testing procedure to even detect it.
Uh, you mean like:

"A dummy head with sensors is placed inside the helmet and fitted to the helmet’s standards. The NOSCAE headform has three sensors that detect linear acceleration and a triaxis angular rate sensor which measures linear and rotational impact characteristics."

and

"The bicycle STAR equation is calculated the same way, taking into account how likely it is to experience a concussion based on impact location and velocity. Concussion risk is calculated as a combination of average peak resultant linear acceleration and average peak resultant change in rotation velocity in each impact configuration."

It seems pretty obvious that they're measuring rotational forces -- which are reduced in some measure by MIPS. But then again, I just read the article and do not claim to be a world famous engineer.

-- Jay Beattie.
Jay, do you know what that all means? You spend a lot of time commenting on engineering matters that you don't understand. The Swedish Institute came up with the IDEA of MPS. For reasons known only to them they decided that rotational forces were causing concussion. That is not nor ever was true. Serious head injuries are very rare to begin with and head injuries combined with neck injuries I've never seen any documentation of being either common or corelated.

Now perhaps those shorts of injuries are more common and not advertised in mountain biking. But as I said, I haven't seen any documentation. I've seen a hell of a lot more documentation on neck pain caused by the latest ultralow positions than from a crash. The most common injuries a
Contusions
Abrasions
Lacerations
Strains
Fractures
In that order. As you can see - they don't even mention concussion though it is a serious injury - it nevertheless is uncommon.

I suggest you get your head out of your ass and don't talk about things that you have no knowledge or even interest in.

On Wednesday, August 26, 2020 at 2:37:53 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, August 26, 2020 at 2:10:45 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, August 26, 2020 at 12:40:08 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
https://www.singletracks.com/mtb-new...g-concussions/

It isn't clear to me why they would cry MIPS which really has no significant effect in a crash. They would have to add a cross motion to their testing procedure to even detect it.
Uh, you mean like:

"A dummy head with sensors is placed inside the helmet and fitted to the helmet’s standards. The NOSCAE headform has three sensors that detect linear acceleration and a triaxis angular rate sensor which measures linear and rotational impact characteristics."

and

"The bicycle STAR equation is calculated the same way, taking into account how likely it is to experience a concussion based on impact location and velocity. Concussion risk is calculated as a combination of average peak resultant linear acceleration and average peak resultant change in rotation velocity in each impact configuration."

It seems pretty obvious that they're measuring rotational forces -- which are reduced in some measure by MIPS. But then again, I just read the article and do not claim to be a world famous engineer.

-- Jay Beattie.
Jay, do you know what that all means? You spend a lot of time commenting on engineering matters that you don't understand. The Swedish Institute came up with the IDEA of MPS. For reasons known only to them they decided that rotational forces were causing concussion. That is not nor ever was true. Serious head injuries are very rare to begin with and head injuries combined with neck injuries I've never seen any documentation of being either common or corelated.

Now perhaps those shorts of injuries are more common and not advertised in mountain biking. But as I said, I haven't seen any documentation. I've seen a hell of a lot more documentation on neck pain caused by the latest ultralow positions than from a crash. The most common injuries a
Contusions
Abrasions
Lacerations
Strains
Fractures
In that order. As you can see - they don't even mention concussion though it is a serious injury - it nevertheless is uncommon.

I suggest you get your head out of your ass and don't talk about things that you have no knowledge or even interest in.

Well, representing two major helmet manufacturers in bicycle helmet cases, I retained and had the benefit of working with them book-learned PhD and MD know-noth'n experts you hate so much. I used this guy for one case. https://tinyurl.com/y3fsmjeb Stanford/Northwestern/Harvard/MIT, etc., etc. All he could do was talk about how he wished he could be as smart as those guys who didn't finish high school.

BTW, your statement that "For reasons known only to them they decided that rotational forces were causing concussion" is bizarre because, as Frank will educate you, rotational forces are what account for many concussions. Whip lash will give you a concussion without even hitting your head. Your concussions were caused by your brain sloshing around inside your skull unless you had a focal injury like a skull fracture. Frank's whole point has been that rotational injury is not reduced by wearing a helmet, which is basically true except now with MIPS -- or previously with a sloppy fitting helmet. MIPS came along because helmets were not doing much to reduce concussions resulting from rotational injury, but I'm sure you know that.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Wednesday, August 26, 2020 at 3:23:35 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, August 26, 2020 at 2:37:53 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, August 26, 2020 at 2:10:45 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, August 26, 2020 at 12:40:08 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
https://www.singletracks.com/mtb-new...g-concussions/

It isn't clear to me why they would cry MIPS which really has no significant effect in a crash. They would have to add a cross motion to their testing procedure to even detect it.
Uh, you mean like:

"A dummy head with sensors is placed inside the helmet and fitted to the helmet’s standards. The NOSCAE headform has three sensors that detect linear acceleration and a triaxis angular rate sensor which measures linear and rotational impact characteristics."

and

"The bicycle STAR equation is calculated the same way, taking into account how likely it is to experience a concussion based on impact location and velocity. Concussion risk is calculated as a combination of average peak resultant linear acceleration and average peak resultant change in rotation velocity in each impact configuration."

It seems pretty obvious that they're measuring rotational forces -- which are reduced in some measure by MIPS. But then again, I just read the article and do not claim to be a world famous engineer.

-- Jay Beattie.
Jay, do you know what that all means? You spend a lot of time commenting on engineering matters that you don't understand. The Swedish Institute came up with the IDEA of MPS. For reasons known only to them they decided that rotational forces were causing concussion. That is not nor ever was true.. Serious head injuries are very rare to begin with and head injuries combined with neck injuries I've never seen any documentation of being either common or corelated.

Now perhaps those shorts of injuries are more common and not advertised in mountain biking. But as I said, I haven't seen any documentation. I've seen a hell of a lot more documentation on neck pain caused by the latest ultralow positions than from a crash. The most common injuries a
Contusions
Abrasions
Lacerations
Strains
Fractures
In that order. As you can see - they don't even mention concussion though it is a serious injury - it nevertheless is uncommon.

I suggest you get your head out of your ass and don't talk about things that you have no knowledge or even interest in.
Well, representing two major helmet manufacturers in bicycle helmet cases, I retained and had the benefit of working with them book-learned PhD and MD know-noth'n experts you hate so much. I used this guy for one case. https://tinyurl.com/y3fsmjeb Stanford/Northwestern/Harvard/MIT, etc., etc. All he could do was talk about how he wished he could be as smart as those guys who didn't finish high school.

BTW, your statement that "For reasons known only to them they decided that rotational forces were causing concussion" is bizarre because, as Frank will educate you, rotational forces are what account for many concussions. Whip lash will give you a concussion without even hitting your head. Your concussions were caused by your brain sloshing around inside your skull unless you had a focal injury like a skull fracture. Frank's whole point has been that rotational injury is not reduced by wearing a helmet, which is basically true except now with MIPS -- or previously with a sloppy fitting helmet. MIPS came along because helmets were not doing much to reduce concussions resulting from rotational injury, but I'm sure you know that.

-- Jay Beattie.
So you're telling us all that you know about concussions and what causes them? Is this anything like your peaceful protests in Portland? As far as Frank goes - he has never shown that he would tell his ass from his head. His last mile was that I didn't hit my head where I said I did. That was the final evidence that there is something wrong in his mind. By all means show us some documentation that MIPS in ANY way reduced concussions. Bontrager has the documentation that Wavecell reduced deceleration forces that cause concussion. Or are you denying them?

Perhaps you should go down there tonight and help in that "peaceful demonstration". One of your coconspirators might shoot you in the back while you're at it looking so white and anti-Black Lives Matter.

On 8/26/2020 3:23 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

BTW, your statement that "For reasons known only to them they decided that rotational forces were causing concussion" is bizarre because, as Frank will educate you, rotational forces are what account for many concussions. Whip lash will give you a concussion without even hitting your head. Your concussions were caused by your brain sloshing around inside your skull unless you had a focal injury like a skull fracture. Frank's whole point has been that rotational injury is not reduced by wearing a helmet, which is basically true except now with MIPS -- or previously with a sloppy fitting helmet. MIPS came along because helmets were not doing much to reduce concussions resulting from rotational injury, but I'm sure you know that.

Helmet prices have gone up due to MIPS.

At Costco, the MIPS version of the Freetown helmet is $30, while the
non-MIPS version (no longer sold) was only $20. That's a 50% increase in
price for MIPS. The online Costco price of the same MIPS helmet is $40
https://www.costco.com/freetown-gear-%2526-gravel-lumiere-mips-helmet.product.100587455.html.

On 8/26/2020 6:23 PM, jbeattie wrote:


BTW, your statement that "For reasons known only to them they decided that rotational forces were causing concussion" is bizarre because, as Frank will educate you, rotational forces are what account for many concussions. Whip lash will give you a concussion without even hitting your head. Your concussions were caused by your brain sloshing around inside your skull unless you had a focal injury like a skull fracture. Frank's whole point has been that rotational injury is not reduced by wearing a helmet, which is basically true except now with MIPS -- or previously with a sloppy fitting helmet. MIPS came along because helmets were not doing much to reduce concussions resulting from rotational injury, but I'm sure you know that.

It now seems to be widely accepted that rotational accelerations cause
far more concussions than linear accelerations (or decelerations). MIPS
and Wavecell were developed to somewhat mitigate those rotational
accelerations - or perhaps, to cash in on that knowledge via publicity.

AFAIK, the benefits (if any) of those technologies have been shown only
in labs and simulations. That is, I'm not aware of (say) any study using
hospital data showing fewer concussions among MIPS users than among
users of ordinary helmets. IOW, any benefits are still theoretical. And
indeed, the amount of rotational motion built into a MIPS helmet is
pretty tiny.

(I think such a hospital study should have more validity than the
typical helmet-vs-no-helmet hospital studies. I think MIPS users would
have much the same characteristics as standard helmet users. That's
certainly not true of helmet users vs. non-helmet users.)

It's worth noting that Randy Swart, probably the most fanatical bike
helmet promoter in the U.S., feels that MIPS has no benefit.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, August 26, 2020 at 11:45:58 PM UTC+1, sms wrote:
On 8/26/2020 3:23 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

BTW, your statement that "For reasons known only to them they decided that rotational forces were causing concussion" is bizarre because, as Frank will educate you, rotational forces are what account for many concussions. Whip lash will give you a concussion without even hitting your head. Your concussions were caused by your brain sloshing around inside your skull unless you had a focal injury like a skull fracture. Frank's whole point has been that rotational injury is not reduced by wearing a helmet, which is basically true except now with MIPS -- or previously with a sloppy fitting helmet. MIPS came along because helmets were not doing much to reduce concussions resulting from rotational injury, but I'm sure you know that.

Helmet prices have gone up due to MIPS.

At Costco, the MIPS version of the Freetown helmet is $30, while the
non-MIPS version (no longer sold) was only $20. That's a 50% increase in
price for MIPS. The online Costco price of the same MIPS helmet is $40
https://www.costco.com/freetown-gear-%2526-gravel-lumiere-mips-helmet.product.100587455.html.

It would be a happy day if I could get a MIPS helmet for the equivalent of 40 American dollars. The last helmet I bought cost over 70 Euro, most of which was unproductive state loadings of some kind, 23pc for sales tax (VAT) alone.

Andre Jute
VAT = Value Added Tax -- don't make me laugh!

On Thursday, August 27, 2020 at 4:29:34 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, August 26, 2020 at 11:45:58 PM UTC+1, sms wrote:
On 8/26/2020 3:23 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

BTW, your statement that "For reasons known only to them they decided that rotational forces were causing concussion" is bizarre because, as Frank will educate you, rotational forces are what account for many concussions. Whip lash will give you a concussion without even hitting your head. Your concussions were caused by your brain sloshing around inside your skull unless you had a focal injury like a skull fracture. Frank's whole point has been that rotational injury is not reduced by wearing a helmet, which is basically true except now with MIPS -- or previously with a sloppy fitting helmet. MIPS came along because helmets were not doing much to reduce concussions resulting from rotational injury, but I'm sure you know that.

Helmet prices have gone up due to MIPS.

At Costco, the MIPS version of the Freetown helmet is $30, while the
non-MIPS version (no longer sold) was only $20. That's a 50% increase in
price for MIPS. The online Costco price of the same MIPS helmet is $40
https://www.costco.com/freetown-gear-%2526-gravel-lumiere-mips-helmet.product.100587455.html.
It would be a happy day if I could get a MIPS helmet for the equivalent of 40 American dollars. The last helmet I bought cost over 70 Euro, most of which was unproductive state loadings of some kind, 23pc for sales tax (VAT) alone.

Andre Jute
VAT = Value Added Tax -- don't make me laugh!
Frank, as usual makes another bizarre statement based upon total ignorance of the mechanics of a concussion. Just as concussions for football players were caused by linear head butts, serious concussions to bicyclist have rotations forces strictly as a happenstance and it it the linear blow of a head under the forces of gravity that cause concussions and not the slight twisting motion of the head swiveling on its neck away from that collision. What we need more of is Jay showing us his great knowledge of concussions by showing us the resume of one of his witnesses.

On Thursday, August 27, 2020 at 8:31:33 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, August 27, 2020 at 4:29:34 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, August 26, 2020 at 11:45:58 PM UTC+1, sms wrote:
On 8/26/2020 3:23 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

BTW, your statement that "For reasons known only to them they decided that rotational forces were causing concussion" is bizarre because, as Frank will educate you, rotational forces are what account for many concussions. Whip lash will give you a concussion without even hitting your head. Your concussions were caused by your brain sloshing around inside your skull unless you had a focal injury like a skull fracture. Frank's whole point has been that rotational injury is not reduced by wearing a helmet, which is basically true except now with MIPS -- or previously with a sloppy fitting helmet. MIPS came along because helmets were not doing much to reduce concussions resulting from rotational injury, but I'm sure you know that.

Helmet prices have gone up due to MIPS.

At Costco, the MIPS version of the Freetown helmet is $30, while the
non-MIPS version (no longer sold) was only $20. That's a 50% increase in
price for MIPS. The online Costco price of the same MIPS helmet is $40
https://www.costco.com/freetown-gear-%2526-gravel-lumiere-mips-helmet.product.100587455.html.
It would be a happy day if I could get a MIPS helmet for the equivalent of 40 American dollars. The last helmet I bought cost over 70 Euro, most of which was unproductive state loadings of some kind, 23pc for sales tax (VAT) alone.

Andre Jute
VAT = Value Added Tax -- don't make me laugh!
Frank, as usual makes another bizarre statement based upon total ignorance of the mechanics of a concussion. Just as concussions for football players were caused by linear head butts, serious concussions to bicyclist have rotations forces strictly as a happenstance and it it the linear blow of a head under the forces of gravity that cause concussions and not the slight twisting motion of the head swiveling on its neck away from that collision. What we need more of is Jay showing us his great knowledge of concussions by showing us the resume of one of his witnesses.


I don't know why I bother. You won't read it: https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...01457518303713 Read the cited studies for further information on rotational TBI. See also https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/41e...82c8e853bb.pdf

Here's a quotable quote:

Rotational acceleration is a second type of acceleration that is common during either impact or impulsive head loading. Due to the physical properties of the highly organized brain,20–24 brain tissue deforms more readily in response to shear forces compared with other biologic tissues. Rapid head rotations generate shear forces throughout the brain, and, therefore, rotational accelerations have a high potential to cause shear-induced tissue damage. The importance of shear forces were confirmed in series of studies across different laboratories, leading to the conventional wisdom that shear deformation caused by rotational acceleration is the predominant mechanism of injury in concussion.25–27 If the head motion is constrained to exclude any rotational motion, it is difficult to produce traumatic unconsciousness. In comparison, introducing or allowing a rotational component after impact substantially increases the likelihood of an unconscious episode.28 This injury mechanism applies across the severity spectrum; the primary difference across the spectrum is the amount of brain tissue injured and the severity of injury at a given site within the brain.26

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3979340/

And yes, I have access to MD and PhD experts with impressive resumes if I have questions about helmets and brain injury. They totally disagree with you, as does the scientific literature, but what do those scientists know. They just read a lot of books and stuff.

-- Jay Beattie.