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Interesting article studying race radio
On Wednesday, March 23, 2011 1:36:36 PM UTC-7, Fred Flintstein wrote:
On 3/23/2011 12:12 PM, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: http://inrng.com/?p=2149#more-2149 Not what you would expect to see... somebody actually did study the difference between races with & without race radio. And with a different outcome than many would think. I'm not certain 1991-1996 vs 2001-2005 TdF stages are otherwise-equal; you're comparing pre-Lance to Lance days, and regardless of what you think of Lance himself, Bruyneel brought a different style of racing to the Peloton, that of everyone dying for the King. At least it's my perception, possibly wrong, that pre-Lance it was more likely your GC guy didn't have the entire team at his disposal, but rather you'd have your separate sprinters & breakaway guys... something not possible with a classic Lance/Bruyneel team. The two periods are very comparable. LANCE/Bruyneel was a refinement of Indurain/Echavarri. Their approaches were analogous, a dominant rider with support from riders that were excellent grand tour riders on their own. Both teams put a lot of effort into suppressing attacks by riding an aggressive tempo so it shouldn't be a surprise that the end results were also very similar. Was the other consideration that in the pre-radio era, racing was more aggresively negative, due to the need to be more conservative (less info=less margin) in releasing and recovering breakaways? |
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Interesting article studying race radio
On Mar 24, 2:31*pm, Ryan Cousineau wrote:
On Wednesday, March 23, 2011 1:36:36 PM UTC-7, Fred Flintstein wrote: On 3/23/2011 12:12 PM, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: http://inrng.com/?p=2149#more-2149 Not what you would expect to see... somebody actually did study the difference between races with & without race radio. And with a different outcome than many would think. I'm not certain 1991-1996 vs 2001-2005 TdF stages are otherwise-equal; you're comparing pre-Lance to Lance days, and regardless of what you think of Lance himself, Bruyneel brought a different style of racing to the Peloton, that of everyone dying for the King. At least it's my perception, possibly wrong, that pre-Lance it was more likely your GC guy didn't have the entire team at his disposal, but rather you'd have your separate sprinters & breakaway guys... something not possible with a classic Lance/Bruyneel team. The two periods are very comparable. LANCE/Bruyneel was a refinement of Indurain/Echavarri. Their approaches were analogous, a dominant rider with support from riders that were excellent grand tour riders on their own. Both teams put a lot of effort into suppressing attacks by riding an aggressive tempo so it shouldn't be a surprise that the end results were also very similar. Was the other consideration that in the pre-radio era, racing was more aggresively negative, due to the need to be more conservative (less info=less margin) in releasing and recovering breakaways? The article makes a big deal out of the fact that in the radio era, the gap between breakaway and peloton is larger, implying I guess that the peloton gives up more efficiently in the radio era. It's not clear that one should combine stages on which the peloton just fails to catch the escape (gap less than a couple minutes) and stages where the peloton gives up and mails it in ( 8-10 minute gaps). It's also not clear what they did to calculate this number - for example calculating the median gap is much less sensitive to outliers than the mean gap, which will get pulled up by the occasional stage with a 30 minute gap. This is also something where behavior is different on mountain and flat stages. In any case, I don't see how much that gap has to do with radios. The chalkboard man existed before, so it's not like the riders were unaware of the time gap. Fredmaster Ben |
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Interesting article studying race radio
On 3/24/2011 9:58 PM, Fredmaster of Brainerd wrote:
On Mar 24, 2:31 pm, Ryan wrote: On Wednesday, March 23, 2011 1:36:36 PM UTC-7, Fred Flintstein wrote: On 3/23/2011 12:12 PM, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: http://inrng.com/?p=2149#more-2149 Not what you would expect to see... somebody actually did study the difference between races with& without race radio. And with a different outcome than many would think. I'm not certain 1991-1996 vs 2001-2005 TdF stages are otherwise-equal; you're comparing pre-Lance to Lance days, and regardless of what you think of Lance himself, Bruyneel brought a different style of racing to the Peloton, that of everyone dying for the King. At least it's my perception, possibly wrong, that pre-Lance it was more likely your GC guy didn't have the entire team at his disposal, but rather you'd have your separate sprinters& breakaway guys... something not possible with a classic Lance/Bruyneel team. The two periods are very comparable. LANCE/Bruyneel was a refinement of Indurain/Echavarri. Their approaches were analogous, a dominant rider with support from riders that were excellent grand tour riders on their own. Both teams put a lot of effort into suppressing attacks by riding an aggressive tempo so it shouldn't be a surprise that the end results were also very similar. Was the other consideration that in the pre-radio era, racing was more aggresively negative, due to the need to be more conservative (less info=less margin) in releasing and recovering breakaways? The article makes a big deal out of the fact that in the radio era, the gap between breakaway and peloton is larger, implying I guess that the peloton gives up more efficiently in the radio era. It's not clear that one should combine stages on which the peloton just fails to catch the escape (gap less than a couple minutes) and stages where the peloton gives up and mails it in ( 8-10 minute gaps). It's also not clear what they did to calculate this number - for example calculating the median gap is much less sensitive to outliers than the mean gap, which will get pulled up by the occasional stage with a 30 minute gap. This is also something where behavior is different on mountain and flat stages. In any case, I don't see how much that gap has to do with radios. The chalkboard man existed before, so it's not like the riders were unaware of the time gap. Fredmaster Ben Yes. I've never accepted that radios = more information. Radios = faster transmission, which is not the same thing. And I was wrong about Bruyneel refining Echavarri's strategy. If you watch the Leth documentary 'Stars and Watercarriers', you see many instances where the Molteni team sets a difficult tempo as part of Merckx' strategy. The 'Road of Pain segment' from the movie is worth watching over and over. Fred Flintstein |
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Interesting article studying race radio
On Mar 25, 12:13*am, Fred Flintstein
wrote: Yes. I've never accepted that radios = more information. Radios = faster transmission, which is not the same thing. True, but with some time-sensitive information, having it arrive too slowly or too late may change it from "information" to simply data or even noise. |
#5
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Interesting article studying race radio
On Mar 25, 12:13*am, Fred Flintstein
And I was wrong about Bruyneel refining Echavarri's strategy. If you watch the Leth documentary 'Stars and Watercarriers', you see many instances where the Molteni team sets a difficult tempo as part of Merckx' strategy. dumbass, are you disputing that armstrong and bruyneel invented GC team tactics ? armstrong also invented scouting the climbs before the race and "spinning" a high cadence. |
#6
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Interesting article studying race radio
On Mar 28, 1:26*pm, Amit Ghosh wrote:
On Mar 25, 12:13*am, Fred Flintstein And I was wrong about Bruyneel refining Echavarri's strategy. If you watch the Leth documentary 'Stars and Watercarriers', you see many instances where the Molteni team sets a difficult tempo as part of Merckx' strategy. dumbass, are you disputing that armstrong and bruyneel invented GC team tactics ? armstrong also invented scouting the climbs before the race and "spinning" a high cadence. Don't forget the interweb, he invented that, too Fred |
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