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Making America into Amsterdam



 
 
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  #311  
Old July 25th 18, 09:38 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 6,016
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On 2018-07-24 19:53, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 07:41:08 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-07-23 18:27, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 15:13:21 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-07-22 21:44, John B. Slocomb wrote:


[...]


In Bangkok, because of the traffic I ride really in the morning, about
the time that a bloke might be setting off for the office and I do,
occasionally see people that seem heading for work, but I see far more
that just seem out for a ride.

Now, I am aware that there are individuals who have and do ride to
work but I would also have to say that an anomaly doesn't necessarily
prove a point. The fact that a certain number of people up in the N.W.
corner of the U.S. enjoy riding in the rain (they must the only times
I have ever been in the Sea-Tac area it rained) isn't necessarily
proof positive that an equal number of folks are riding to work in
Nome, Alaska, or Dry Prong, Louisiana.

Now, I am aware that people do ride a bicycle to the shop to get a can
of beans but these same people have one or two cars in the garage.


We do have two cars in the garage. Each sees around 1000mi/year. I
assume you can guess why those numbers are so low, mine used to be much
higher.


Before feeling too virtuous have a look at the Bayley's pages. they
ride between 10,000 and 14,000 (Pamela) or 17,000 (John) miles
annually and apparently have never owned a car.


If you have everything big delivered that's possible. However, then you
must count the miles and environmental impact of all the delivery vehicles.


If the bicycles are for work, what are the cars for?


Have you ever tried to haul half a ton of wood pellets, firewood,
construction lumber and whatnot on a bicycle, uphill? With uphill I mean
some serious hills.

Why ever not? Small loads and many trips, just as you would if you
were walking. The argument, "OH! It is too big for my bike", is just
that an argument for using the car.


Obviously you have never hauled four cords of firewood from a location
that is 1400ft lower than where you live. That's eight tons.


Quite the opposite. I spent much of my second career transporting
stuff through jungles, up and down hills and through swamps. I'm quite
aware of the effort of moving tons of machinery and equipment up and
down hills.


On a bicycle. Through the jungle. Right.


Or just 30 bags of pellets at 50lbs each. Yeah, you could make 30 trips
while sweating profusely. However, some of us still need to work and
earn money.

You make my point exactly. You could haul the pellets but it would
take a lot of trips and you'd rather use the car.

Or in other words, you didn't need the car, it was a convenience.


Again, if you still need to generate an income for the family you do
need the car in such situations because you cannot speend months on a
bicycle schlepping stuff up the hill. It is not a matter of choice. Once
retired, different story.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Ads
  #312  
Old July 25th 18, 10:49 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 1,261
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On Tuesday, June 26, 2018 at 11:24:55 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-26 08:57, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Interesting article, with data, about how much the Dutch actually ride
their bikes.

https://peopleforbikes.org/blog/best...h-hardly-bike/


Turns out they average, oh, maybe a mile or two per day.


That was quite different when I lived in the Netherlands in the 80's.
Whenever I asked friends "Hey, want to have a few beers and a cheese
platter in the Kaaskelder?" the answer was usually "YES!". That meant
40mi round trip with the return part in the night yet everyone naturally
assumed we'd bike there. The decision was greatly helped by an almost
seemless bike path from A to Z.


That works for them because their cities are so dense that many
destinations are less than a mile away. That comes from having cities
that were founded in medieval times.



No, that comes from not having the stupid zoning laws we have. If I
needed groceries or nearly anything else I could walk. As in "just
across the street" which is, for example, where the grocery store was.
The bank was immediately next door, literally. The post office was
diagonally across the street. The next church was less than 500ft away.
And so on.


... When things are more than a couple
miles away, they tend to leave the bike and use other modes.

So we can get Dutch bike mode shares if we start work on our cities
early enough. Like, back in 1400 AD or so.


Last time I was there I had the impression cycling wasn't quite as
popular as in the 80's. New generations? Who knows.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


Joerg, I would have expected you to know that actual knowledge is always over-ridden by wild-ass imagination.
  #313  
Old July 26th 18, 12:41 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 547
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 13:38:57 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-07-24 19:53, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 07:41:08 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-07-23 18:27, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 15:13:21 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-07-22 21:44, John B. Slocomb wrote:

[...]


In Bangkok, because of the traffic I ride really in the morning, about
the time that a bloke might be setting off for the office and I do,
occasionally see people that seem heading for work, but I see far more
that just seem out for a ride.

Now, I am aware that there are individuals who have and do ride to
work but I would also have to say that an anomaly doesn't necessarily
prove a point. The fact that a certain number of people up in the N.W.
corner of the U.S. enjoy riding in the rain (they must the only times
I have ever been in the Sea-Tac area it rained) isn't necessarily
proof positive that an equal number of folks are riding to work in
Nome, Alaska, or Dry Prong, Louisiana.

Now, I am aware that people do ride a bicycle to the shop to get a can
of beans but these same people have one or two cars in the garage.


We do have two cars in the garage. Each sees around 1000mi/year. I
assume you can guess why those numbers are so low, mine used to be much
higher.


Before feeling too virtuous have a look at the Bayley's pages. they
ride between 10,000 and 14,000 (Pamela) or 17,000 (John) miles
annually and apparently have never owned a car.


If you have everything big delivered that's possible. However, then you
must count the miles and environmental impact of all the delivery vehicles.


If the bicycles are for work, what are the cars for?


Have you ever tried to haul half a ton of wood pellets, firewood,
construction lumber and whatnot on a bicycle, uphill? With uphill I mean
some serious hills.

Why ever not? Small loads and many trips, just as you would if you
were walking. The argument, "OH! It is too big for my bike", is just
that an argument for using the car.


Obviously you have never hauled four cords of firewood from a location
that is 1400ft lower than where you live. That's eight tons.


Quite the opposite. I spent much of my second career transporting
stuff through jungles, up and down hills and through swamps. I'm quite
aware of the effort of moving tons of machinery and equipment up and
down hills.


On a bicycle. Through the jungle. Right.

Well, not on a bicycle but certainly through the jungle. I might add
that in some places, usually swamps, we carried the cargo on our
heads, arms, back, any way we could get it there.

The sysmic crews, who admitedly didn't work for me, were strictly
human powered. Every thing that they did was powered by hand. Cut a
path through the jungle - by hand. Drill the shot holes - by hand.
Carry everything through the jungle - by hand. Build a camp - by hand.

Or just 30 bags of pellets at 50lbs each. Yeah, you could make 30 trips
while sweating profusely. However, some of us still need to work and
earn money.

You make my point exactly. You could haul the pellets but it would
take a lot of trips and you'd rather use the car.

Or in other words, you didn't need the car, it was a convenience.


Again, if you still need to generate an income for the family you do
need the car in such situations because you cannot speend months on a
bicycle schlepping stuff up the hill. It is not a matter of choice. Once
retired, different story.

--

Cheers,

John B.
  #314  
Old July 26th 18, 03:19 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joy Beeson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,638
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 19:56:32 -0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

So, you are saying that no one lived in the area until automobiles
were available?


I vaguely recall reading a novel written in the Victorian era. The
protagonist's sister married and the two sisters bid each other a
tearful good-by forever -- the married sister's new home was ten whole
miles away, so there was no way they could visit each other after the
wedding.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/


---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

  #315  
Old July 26th 18, 05:02 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,511
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 10:19:26 PM UTC-4, Joy Beeson wrote:

I vaguely recall reading a novel written in the Victorian era. The
protagonist's sister married and the two sisters bid each other a
tearful good-by forever -- the married sister's new home was ten whole
miles away, so there was no way they could visit each other after the
wedding.


I've thought about that sort of thing. I complain because I'm forced to drive
an hour each way in various directions to visit family members or friends, or to
take care of other business or projects. But when this village was founded,
an hour trip wouldn't have gotten me as far as my half hour bike commute did.

OTOH, an hour trip back then would have been more environmentally benign.

- Frank Krygowski
  #316  
Old July 26th 18, 05:04 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,018
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 22:19:24 -0400, Joy Beeson
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 19:56:32 -0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

So, you are saying that no one lived in the area until automobiles
were available?


I vaguely recall reading a novel written in the Victorian era. The
protagonist's sister married and the two sisters bid each other a
tearful good-by forever -- the married sister's new home was ten whole
miles away, so there was no way they could visit each other after the
wedding.


It depends on where they were living. If they were homesteaders on
the American frontier, there was this rather quaint custom called
"second sleep":
https://www.sciencealert.com/humans-used-to-sleep-in-two-shifts-maybe-we-should-again
http://slumberwise.com/science/your-ancestors-didnt-sleep-like-you/
The problem was during the winter, the night was 8 to 15 hrs long
depending on latitude[1]. Humans are not built to sleep for more than
about 8 hours every night. So, what did they do during those extra
hours? Lamp oil (whale oil at the time) was expensive, so reading at
night was out. Maybe candles were available, for reading, but not
every night[2].

As far as I can determine, they got dressed and either walked or rode
over to the neighbors for some late night "socializing". A slow walk
by moonlight would probably be at 2 miles/hr. With 6 hrs to burn, our
homesteader could make it to a neighbor 2.5 miles away and still have
an hour left to "socialize". The standard 160 acre homestead is only
0.25 square-miles or 0.5 miles on a side (if square). A 2.5 miles
radius would cover a fairly large number of homesteads within walking
distance. However, 10 miles would be a big stretch and probably not
practical on a nightly basis.


[1] For example, in 1883 Billings, Montana, the night was 8:17hrs
long in June, and 15:20hrs in Dec.
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/cgi-bin/aa_durtablew.pl?form=1&year=1883&task=1&state=MT&p lace=Billings

[2] Try reading by candle light if you want to experience the
problem. The light flickers badly and the iris cannot compensate fast
enough. For me, it's eyestrain in about 15 minutes.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/the-calm-in-the-storm-reading-by-candlelight/2011/08/26/gIQAoiB8gJ_story.html
Candlelight reading is a fantasy that persists even though
those who have tried it will attest that the act is not
nearly as romantic as it sounds.



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #317  
Old July 26th 18, 11:56 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On 7/23/2018 7:15 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 5:38:23 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/23/2018 2:25 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
I'm often blinded at night by very bright bicycle strobe lights. I also often get blinded by those blue tinted super bright car headlights.


I get very irritated by motorists who refuse to dim their lights.
Unfortunately, sometimes when I'm riding at night an oncoming motorist
will actually turn on his brights. I don't think it's harassment. I
think it's "What the heck is that??" coupled with low IQ.

I now do much more night driving on rural roads than I used to. ISTM the
worst headlight offenders are pickup truck drivers. Their lights are
high, they seem to refuse to dim them more than most, and they very
often have auxiliary driving lights that they also leave on. "MFFY."

--
- Frank Krygowski


What I was referring to are those cars with very bright blue lights that are driving IN TOWN on well lit roads. I've been so blinded by some of those lights that i couldn't see parked cars ahead of me on my side of the road. Thus I had to either slow way down or even stop. Seems that lumen wars aren't restricted to makers of bicycle lights.

Cheers


There is no need for those vehicle lights on well lit roads but once the
vehicle has them as standard equipment there's no way to select the
brightness. Audi has a technology for headlights that would solve this
problem, but it's not legal in the U.S.
https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/news/a4093/revolutionary-audi-headlight-tech-banned-in-us/.

Vehicle drivers will often activate their high beams when they glimpse
an unlit or poorly lit pedestrian or cyclist on the road. They're often
not sure what it is when they first see movement. A cyclist, a
pedestrian, an animal, etc.. The way to avoid this, as a cyclist anyway,
is to use adequate lighting, not just the legal minimum. Pedestrians
walking on unlit roads would benefit from at least a little lighting,
and I do often see this now, but it's not the norm.

The of "low IQ" when a motorist turns on his or her high beams to
determine what is on the road, is laughable. The reality is that the
cyclist should have sufficient lights that the motorist doesn't have to
turn on his or her high beams to figure out that it's a cyclist.
Stubbornly refusing to use adequate lighting says much more about the IQ
of the cyclists than of the motorist!
  #318  
Old July 26th 18, 12:37 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,270
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On Thursday, July 26, 2018 at 6:56:08 AM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 7/23/2018 7:15 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 5:38:23 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/23/2018 2:25 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
I'm often blinded at night by very bright bicycle strobe lights. I also often get blinded by those blue tinted super bright car headlights.

I get very irritated by motorists who refuse to dim their lights.
Unfortunately, sometimes when I'm riding at night an oncoming motorist
will actually turn on his brights. I don't think it's harassment. I
think it's "What the heck is that??" coupled with low IQ.

I now do much more night driving on rural roads than I used to. ISTM the
worst headlight offenders are pickup truck drivers. Their lights are
high, they seem to refuse to dim them more than most, and they very
often have auxiliary driving lights that they also leave on. "MFFY."

--
- Frank Krygowski


What I was referring to are those cars with very bright blue lights that are driving IN TOWN on well lit roads. I've been so blinded by some of those lights that i couldn't see parked cars ahead of me on my side of the road. Thus I had to either slow way down or even stop. Seems that lumen wars aren't restricted to makers of bicycle lights.

Cheers


There is no need for those vehicle lights on well lit roads but once the
vehicle has them as standard equipment there's no way to select the
brightness. Audi has a technology for headlights that would solve this
problem, but it's not legal in the U.S.
https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/news/a4093/revolutionary-audi-headlight-tech-banned-in-us/.

Vehicle drivers will often activate their high beams when they glimpse
an unlit or poorly lit pedestrian or cyclist on the road. They're often
not sure what it is when they first see movement. A cyclist, a
pedestrian, an animal, etc.. The way to avoid this, as a cyclist anyway,
is to use adequate lighting, not just the legal minimum. Pedestrians
walking on unlit roads would benefit from at least a little lighting,
and I do often see this now, but it's not the norm.

The of "low IQ" when a motorist turns on his or her high beams to
determine what is on the road, is laughable. The reality is that the
cyclist should have sufficient lights that the motorist doesn't have to
turn on his or her high beams to figure out that it's a cyclist.
Stubbornly refusing to use adequate lighting says much more about the IQ
of the cyclists than of the motorist!


More utter nonsense from you!

Cheers
  #319  
Old July 26th 18, 01:33 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On 7/25/2018 9:19 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 19:56:32 -0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

So, you are saying that no one lived in the area until automobiles
were available?


I vaguely recall reading a novel written in the Victorian era. The
protagonist's sister married and the two sisters bid each other a
tearful good-by forever -- the married sister's new home was ten whole
miles away, so there was no way they could visit each other after the
wedding.


Indeed my girlfriend's family has lived in the same valley
since they first arrived in 1840. She says she never dated
as a teenager because she was related to everyone in one way
or another. Two of her aunts were sisters who married her
uncles, and so on.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #320  
Old July 26th 18, 01:36 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On 7/25/2018 11:02 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 10:19:26 PM UTC-4, Joy Beeson wrote:

I vaguely recall reading a novel written in the Victorian era. The
protagonist's sister married and the two sisters bid each other a
tearful good-by forever -- the married sister's new home was ten whole
miles away, so there was no way they could visit each other after the
wedding.


I've thought about that sort of thing. I complain because I'm forced to drive
an hour each way in various directions to visit family members or friends, or to
take care of other business or projects. But when this village was founded,
an hour trip wouldn't have gotten me as far as my half hour bike commute did.

OTOH, an hour trip back then would have been more environmentally benign.

- Frank Krygowski


Much as Half Day Road is is suburban Chicago, barely out of town

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


 




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