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#1
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Chain idler efficiency - roller vs. toothed
TandemFan wrote:
[cross-posted to ARBR for Perry Butler's amusement] We have a R[ANS] Screamer tandem and there are a few idler rollers for the chain. An outfit sells toothed idlers for about $250: http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2/...Code=IdlersALL They have a long blurb on why they are better: http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2/...d e=IdlersALL What's the scoop? Does it make any difference at all, or are we going to go faster? Someone needs to tell Pat Franz that it is "RANS" and not "Rans". While the manufacturers in question are trying to meet a price point for their bicycles, they are not going to be putting junk chain idlers on their bicycles [1]. Therefore, while there is room for improvement, the gains will likely be small as drive-train friction is a small component of total non-conservative losses, even on a recumbent with a complicated chain-line. If you want to make a RANS Screamer a lot faster than stock, put a front fairing (Zzipper or Mueller) and a bodysock on the bike. [1] Unlike some defunct manufacturers of the past. -- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia The weather is here, wish you were beautiful |
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#2
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Chain idler efficiency - roller vs. toothed
Tom Sherman wrote:
TandemFan wrote: [cross-posted to ARBR for Perry Butler's amusement] We have a R[ANS] Screamer tandem and there are a few idler rollers for the chain. An outfit sells toothed idlers for about $250: http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2/...Code=IdlersALL They have a long blurb on why they are better: http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2/...d e=IdlersALL What's the scoop? Does it make any difference at all, or are we going to go faster? Someone needs to tell Pat Franz that it is "RANS" and not "Rans". While the manufacturers in question are trying to meet a price point for their bicycles, they are not going to be putting junk chain idlers on their bicycles [1]. Therefore, while there is room for improvement, the gains will likely be small as drive-train friction is a small component of total non-conservative losses, even on a recumbent with a complicated chain-line. Why not avoid idlers and recumbents with complicated chain-lines? It might not (yet) be possible with a tandem, but for a single rider bike, cruzbike offers a short normal chain-line. JonB |
#3
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Chain idler efficiency - roller vs. toothed
Jon Bendtsen wrote:
Tom Sherman wrote: TandemFan wrote: [cross-posted to ARBR for Perry Butler's amusement] We have a R[ANS] Screamer tandem and there are a few idler rollers for the chain. An outfit sells toothed idlers for about $250: http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2/...Code=IdlersALL They have a long blurb on why they are better: http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2/...d e=IdlersALL What's the scoop? Does it make any difference at all, or are we going to go faster? Someone needs to tell Pat Franz that it is "RANS" and not "Rans". While the manufacturers in question are trying to meet a price point for their bicycles, they are not going to be putting junk chain idlers on their bicycles [1]. Therefore, while there is room for improvement, the gains will likely be small as drive-train friction is a small component of total non-conservative losses, even on a recumbent with a complicated chain-line. Why not avoid idlers and recumbents with complicated chain-lines? It might not (yet) be possible with a tandem, but for a single rider bike, cruzbike offers a short normal chain-line. And introduces a whole other set of compromises in seating position, weight distribution, traction on steep hills, etc. Long chain lines are not necessarily a bad thing, as several issues with short chain lines go away that make wide range gearing difficult. -- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia The weather is here, wish you were beautiful |
#4
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Chain idler efficiency - roller vs. toothed
Tom Sherman wrote:
Jon Bendtsen wrote: Tom Sherman wrote: TandemFan wrote: [cross-posted to ARBR for Perry Butler's amusement] We have a R[ANS] Screamer tandem and there are a few idler rollers for the chain. An outfit sells toothed idlers for about $250: http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2/...Code=IdlersALL They have a long blurb on why they are better: http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2/...d e=IdlersALL What's the scoop? Does it make any difference at all, or are we going to go faster? Someone needs to tell Pat Franz that it is "RANS" and not "Rans". While the manufacturers in question are trying to meet a price point for their bicycles, they are not going to be putting junk chain idlers on their bicycles [1]. Therefore, while there is room for improvement, the gains will likely be small as drive-train friction is a small component of total non-conservative losses, even on a recumbent with a complicated chain-line. Why not avoid idlers and recumbents with complicated chain-lines? It might not (yet) be possible with a tandem, but for a single rider bike, cruzbike offers a short normal chain-line. And introduces a whole other set of compromises in seating position, yeah, thats true. weight distribution, traction on steep hills, etc. Long chain lines are actually i dont find the traction too bad up hill. But we dont really have hills in Denmark, it's just flat flat flat compared to other places. not necessarily a bad thing, as several issues with short chain lines go away that make wide range gearing difficult. Why would short chainlines make wide range gearing difficult? |
#5
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Chain idler efficiency - roller vs. toothed
On 28 Kwi, 00:37, Jon Bendtsen wrote:
Tom Sherman wrote: Jon Bendtsen wrote: Tom Sherman wrote: TandemFan wrote: [cross-posted to ARBR for Perry Butler's amusement] We have a R[ANS] Screamer tandem and there are a few idler rollers for the chain. An outfit sells toothed idlers for about $250: http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2/...=PROD&Store_Co... They have a long blurb on why they are better: http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2/...=CTGY&Store_Co... What's the scoop? Does it make any difference at all, or are we going to go faster? Someone needs to tell Pat Franz that it is "RANS" and not "Rans". While the manufacturers in question are trying to meet a price point for their bicycles, they are not going to be putting junk chain idlers on their bicycles [1]. Therefore, while there is room for improvement, the gains will likely be small as drive-train friction is a small component of total non-conservative losses, even on a recumbent with a complicated chain-line. Why not avoid idlers and recumbents with complicated chain-lines? It might not (yet) be possible with a tandem, but for a single rider bike, cruzbike offers a short normal chain-line. And introduces a whole other set of compromises in seating position, yeah, thats true. weight distribution, traction on steep hills, etc. Long chain lines are actually i dont find the traction too bad up hill. But we dont really have hills in Denmark, it's just flat flat flat compared to other places. not necessarily a bad thing, as several issues with short chain lines go away that make wide range gearing difficult. Why would short chainlines make wide range gearing difficult? Cross chain without guilt for instance. -- Adam Kadlubek |
#6
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Chain idler efficiency - roller vs. toothed
Adam Kadlubek wrote:
On 28 Kwi, 00:37, Jon Bendtsen wrote: Tom Sherman wrote: Jon Bendtsen wrote: Tom Sherman wrote: TandemFan wrote: [cross-posted to ARBR for Perry Butler's amusement] We have a R[ANS] Screamer tandem and there are a few idler rollers for the chain. An outfit sells toothed idlers for about $250: http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2/...=PROD&Store_Co... They have a long blurb on why they are better: http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2/...=CTGY&Store_Co... What's the scoop? Does it make any difference at all, or are we going to go faster? Someone needs to tell Pat Franz that it is "RANS" and not "Rans". While the manufacturers in question are trying to meet a price point for their bicycles, they are not going to be putting junk chain idlers on their bicycles [1]. Therefore, while there is room for improvement, the gains will likely be small as drive-train friction is a small component of total non-conservative losses, even on a recumbent with a complicated chain-line. Why not avoid idlers and recumbents with complicated chain-lines? It might not (yet) be possible with a tandem, but for a single rider bike, cruzbike offers a short normal chain-line. And introduces a whole other set of compromises in seating position, yeah, thats true. weight distribution, traction on steep hills, etc. Long chain lines are actually i dont find the traction too bad up hill. But we dont really have hills in Denmark, it's just flat flat flat compared to other places. not necessarily a bad thing, as several issues with short chain lines go away that make wide range gearing difficult. Why would short chainlines make wide range gearing difficult? Cross chain without guilt for instance. Then combine a rohloff/nuvinci + a schlumpf drive == 0 cross chain. If normal bikes can live with some cross chain, so can a recumbent. JonB |
#7
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Chain idler efficiency - roller vs. toothed
Jon Bendtsen wrote:
Tom Sherman wrote: [...] not necessarily a bad thing, as several issues with short chain lines go away that make wide range gearing difficult. Why would short chainlines make wide range gearing difficult? Proper alignment between front chain wheels and rear sprockets becomes more critical with a shorter chain line, which makes things more difficult when using non-standard components. A long chain line in combination with a idler tensioner (e.g. Easy Racers) or a mid-drive can allow for chain wheel and sprocket combinations that would not work on a short chain line unless custom derailers (sic) were used. -- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia The weather is here, wish you were beautiful |
#8
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Chain idler efficiency - roller vs. toothed
Jon Bendtsen wrote:
Adam Kadlubek wrote: On 28 Kwi, 00:37, Jon Bendtsen wrote: Tom Sherman wrote: Jon Bendtsen wrote: Tom Sherman wrote: TandemFan wrote: [cross-posted to ARBR for Perry Butler's amusement] We have a R[ANS] Screamer tandem and there are a few idler rollers for the chain. An outfit sells toothed idlers for about $250: http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2/...=PROD&Store_Co... They have a long blurb on why they are better: http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2/...=CTGY&Store_Co... What's the scoop? Does it make any difference at all, or are we going to go faster? Someone needs to tell Pat Franz that it is "RANS" and not "Rans". While the manufacturers in question are trying to meet a price point for their bicycles, they are not going to be putting junk chain idlers on their bicycles [1]. Therefore, while there is room for improvement, the gains will likely be small as drive-train friction is a small component of total non-conservative losses, even on a recumbent with a complicated chain-line. Why not avoid idlers and recumbents with complicated chain-lines? It might not (yet) be possible with a tandem, but for a single rider bike, cruzbike offers a short normal chain-line. And introduces a whole other set of compromises in seating position, yeah, thats true. weight distribution, traction on steep hills, etc. Long chain lines are actually i dont find the traction too bad up hill. But we dont really have hills in Denmark, it's just flat flat flat compared to other places. not necessarily a bad thing, as several issues with short chain lines go away that make wide range gearing difficult. Why would short chainlines make wide range gearing difficult? Cross chain without guilt for instance. Then combine a rohloff/nuvinci + a schlumpf drive == 0 cross chain. No cross chain, but large expense. If normal bikes can live with some cross chain, so can a recumbent. Cross-chaining becomes much less of an detriment with a long chain line. -- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia The weather is here, wish you were beautiful |
#9
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Chain idler efficiency - roller vs. toothed
The angle at which the chain enters and leaves front sprockets and
derailleur idlers is the sine of the angle which is the lateral offset between the two ends of the chain span divided by the free span length. Therefore, the longer the chainstays and the fewer the gears on the sprocket cluster, the smaller the angle between chain and sprocket plane. The angle causes lateral sprocket tooth wear and idler wheel wear. Jobst Brandt |
#10
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Chain idler efficiency - roller vs. toothed
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