rust inside the frame how to treat it

Rick Warner writes:

Gore-Tex are religious icons without merit.

Jobst, you are treading on thin ice here. I suspect you are talking
about 'Gore-Tex fabric' not Gore-Tex, which is micro-expanded
polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE). Gore-Tex, PTFE, is used in a number of
applications where it positively, absolutely, without a shadow of a
doubt, has merit. Ask a plumber who uses 'Gore-Tex' tape instead of
pipe dope at threaded junctions. Ask a cardiologist who has implanted
a number of Gore-Tex vascular prosthetics. Ask an orthopedist who has
implanted a number of Gore-Tex ligament replacements. Ask the folks
who make missles and other high spec projects that need wiring with
heat resistant insulation (BTW, the original application of Gore-Tex).
Gore-Tex, PTFE, works. The material sandwiches with Gore-Tex layered
between two slabs of nylon or whatever may not work, but that does not
invalidate the hundreds of applications where the product does work.

As always, these threads get dragged off course into unrelated topics.
It may not be readily apparent but I am talking about Gore-Tex
"breathable clothing" sold to the outdoorsman (aka bicyclist).

You may recall as a youth using a pillow case as a flotation device in
a swimming pool. Such wet cloth becomes airtight when wet and remains
inflated even when submerged. A small pillow case was a cute device
that could easily be deflated and hidden inside one's bathing suit in
water war games.

The point is that when wet, cloth such as that which covers the inside
and outside of Gore-Tex jackets becomes a sealed wet coating rendering
any gas transmission through the Teflon mesh null. My experience,
riding in rain, was that the jacket became wet, remained wet and took
a long time to dry overnight. The inside became wet even without rain
when riding hard in cold weather because sweat at the rate produced
when exerting oneself, condenses and wets the inner surface rendering
the Gore-Tex as useless as when rained upon. Of course, both
scenarios often coincide.

I returned to a waterproof parka with an insulating inner standoff
mesh and find it far superior to riding a wet Gore-Tex parka. I don't
question that Gore-Tex has scientific applications, only that it does
nothing for the active bicyclist and hiker where it is most visibly
advertised. I think a survey would show that most riders do not
question the claims for this apparel and that the claims are believed.
I propose that they are in practice entirely false.

You may not recall the early promotional ads for the material showing
Mr. Gore languishing well tanned on a deck chair next to a swimming
pool looking much like Charles Atlas with a buxom blond at his side.
That was the first insult but the sports apparel scam is the probably
the greatest.

Jobst Brandt

no expletive dleted! here in boat country...gore tex is de riguer. this
is a chimera?
reality check. get the rubber hammer

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:49:18 GMT,
wrote:

Rick Warner writes:

Gore-Tex are religious icons without merit.

Jobst, you are treading on thin ice here. I suspect you are talking
about 'Gore-Tex fabric' not Gore-Tex, which is micro-expanded
polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE). Gore-Tex, PTFE, is used in a number of
applications where it positively, absolutely, without a shadow of a
doubt, has merit. Ask a plumber who uses 'Gore-Tex' tape instead of
pipe dope at threaded junctions. Ask a cardiologist who has implanted
a number of Gore-Tex vascular prosthetics. Ask an orthopedist who has
implanted a number of Gore-Tex ligament replacements. Ask the folks
who make missles and other high spec projects that need wiring with
heat resistant insulation (BTW, the original application of Gore-Tex).
Gore-Tex, PTFE, works. The material sandwiches with Gore-Tex layered
between two slabs of nylon or whatever may not work, but that does not
invalidate the hundreds of applications where the product does work.

As always, these threads get dragged off course into unrelated topics.

[snip]

Dear Jobst,

Hmmm . . . do you have any idea who first mentioned Gore-Tex
in this thread?

Curiously,

Carl Fogel

wrote:
Rick Warner writes:

Gore-Tex are religious icons without merit.

Jobst, you are treading on thin ice here. I suspect you are talking
about 'Gore-Tex fabric' not Gore-Tex, which is micro-expanded
polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE). Gore-Tex, PTFE, is used in a number of
applications where it positively, absolutely, without a shadow of a
doubt, has merit. Ask a plumber who uses 'Gore-Tex' tape instead of
pipe dope at threaded junctions. Ask a cardiologist who has implanted
a number of Gore-Tex vascular prosthetics. Ask an orthopedist who has
implanted a number of Gore-Tex ligament replacements. Ask the folks
who make missles and other high spec projects that need wiring with
heat resistant insulation (BTW, the original application of Gore-Tex).
Gore-Tex, PTFE, works. The material sandwiches with Gore-Tex layered
between two slabs of nylon or whatever may not work, but that does not
invalidate the hundreds of applications where the product does work.

As always, these threads get dragged off course into unrelated topics.

Jobst, you are the one who dragged this thread into a discussion
involving Gore-Tex. Go back, re-read the thread, in order.

It may not be readily apparent but I am talking about Gore-Tex
"breathable clothing" sold to the outdoorsman (aka bicyclist).

It is absolutely not apparent. I know folks who use Gore-Tex tape when
installing bottom brackets. I know cyclists with Gore-Tex ligaments.
Gore-tex clothing is but one small product line for the company, and
all the products bear Gore-Tex in the name. The clothing line was not
even close to being the first product application (insulation for high
spec wiring was, starting in 1954). My point is, be careful with your
verbage, something you warn others about from time to time.

- rick

On 29 Jul 2005 10:38:54 -0700, wrote:

Jobst, you are treading on thin ice here. I suspect you are talking
about 'Gore-Tex fabric' not Gore-Tex, which is micro-expanded
polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE). Gore-Tex, PTFE, is used in a number of
applications where it positively, absolutely, without a shadow of a
doubt, has merit. Ask a plumber who uses 'Gore-Tex' tape instead of
pipe dope at threaded junctions. Ask a cardiologist who has implanted
a number of Gore-Tex vascular prosthetics. Ask an orthopedist who has
implanted a number of Gore-Tex ligament replacements. Ask the folks
who make missles and other high spec projects that need wiring with
heat resistant insulation (BTW, the original application of Gore-Tex).
Gore-Tex, PTFE, works. The material sandwiches with Gore-Tex layered
between two slabs of nylon or whatever may not work, but that does not
invalidate the hundreds of applications where the product does work.

You're confused. Gore-Tex *is* the fabric application, all the others use
the regular trade name "Teflon". You may have heard of it.

Jasper

Rick Warner writes:

... Gore-Tex are religious icons without merit.

What was not cited was:

WD-40 as Gore-Tex are religious icons without merit. They live
entirely on faith. Let's tie and solder spokes again as the
ancients did religiously... without merit. Also beware, smooth
tread bicycle tires will aquaplane and cause crashes on wet
roads... and many more.

Jobst, you are treading on thin ice here. I suspect you are
talking about 'Gore-Tex fabric' not Gore-Tex, which is
micro-expanded polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE). Gore-Tex, PTFE, is
used in a number of applications where it positively, absolutely,
without a shadow of a doubt, has merit. Ask a plumber who uses
'Gore-Tex' tape instead of pipe dope at threaded junctions. Ask a
cardiologist who has implanted a number of Gore-Tex vascular
prosthetics. Ask an orthopedist who has implanted a number of
Gore-Tex ligament replacements. Ask the folks who make missles
and other high spec projects that need wiring with heat resistant
insulation (BTW, the original application of Gore-Tex). Gore-Tex,
PTFE, works. The material sandwiches with Gore-Tex layered
between two slabs of nylon or whatever may not work, but that does
not invalidate the hundreds of applications where the product does
work.

As always, these threads get dragged off course into unrelated topics.

Jobst, you are the one who dragged this thread into a discussion
involving Gore-Tex. Go back, re-read the thread, in order.

I think you edited to suit it your argument and missed the following:

As always, these threads get dragged off course into unrelated
topics. It may not be readily apparent but I am talking about
Gore-Tex "breathable clothing" sold to the outdoorsman (aka
bicyclist).

So why did you omit the last sentence?

You may recall as a youth using a pillow case as a flotation device
in a swimming pool. Such wet cloth becomes airtight when wet and
remains inflated even when submerged. A small pillow case was a
cute device that could easily be deflated and hidden inside one's
bathing suit in water war games.

The point is that when wet, cloth such as that which covers the
inside end outside of Gore-Tex jackets becomes a sealed wet coating
rendering any gas transmission through the Teflon mesh null. My
experience, riding in rain, was that the jacket became wet, remained
wet and took long time to dry overnight. The inside became wet
even without rain then riding hard in cold weather because sweat at
the rate produced when exerting oneself, condenses and wets the
inner surface rendering the Gore-Tex as useless as when rained
upon. Of course, both scenarios often coincide.


I returned to a waterproof parka with an insulating inner standoff
mesh and find it far superior to riding a wet Gore-Tex parka. I
don't question that Gore-Tex has scientific applications, only that
it does nothing for the active bicyclist and hiker where it is most
visibly advertised. I think a survey would show that most riders
do not question the claims for this apparel and that the claims are
believed. I propose that they are in practice entirely false.

-------

Your response to the example presented also skips over evidence that
you apparently don't want to discuss. "micro-expanded
polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE)" is a wonderful dodge of the issue for
people easily snowed by jargon.

It may not be readily apparent but I am talking about Gore-Tex
"breathable clothing" sold to the outdoorsman (aka bicyclist).

It is absolutely not apparent.

Of course if you choose to selectively edit and respond there may be no
continuity in the original as you seem to want to show.

I know folks who use Gore-Tex tape when installing bottom brackets.
I know cyclists with Gore-Tex ligaments. Gore-Tex clothing is but
one small product line for the company, and all the products bear
Gore-Tex in the name. The clothing line was not even close to being
the first product application (insulation for high spec wiring was,
starting in 1954). My point is, be careful with your verbage,
something you warn others about from time to time.

I think I hear not right! "High spec wiring"? I'm talking about
"breathable clothing". As I said, it's amazing how these threads get
dragged off course to disagree about something that was not at hand.
As I said, there are many technical applications for this material but
they are not sports clothing.

Whether you are defending Gore-Tex or just arguing for argument's sake
is unclear. You state no contrary evidence or opinion on the subject
other then to take issue with my writing about it. I think sophist
response fits. Washington needs more writers like that.

Jobst Brandt

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 23:37:38 GMT,
wrote:

[snip]

I think I hear not right!

[snip]

Dear Yoda,

May the mass/acceleration be with you!

Fluke Whytalker

In article ,
wrote:

Ron Sonic writes:

I also own vice-grips.

I don't know what your fetish has to do with bicycle lubricants, but
maybe you mean "Vise-Grips":

http://tinyurl.com/8zcm6

Jobst Brandt

Ron can't define a vice-grip, but he knows it when he sees it.

http://library.findlaw.com/2003/May/15/132747.html

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

In article ,
wrote:

Rick Warner writes:

Gore-Tex are religious icons without merit.

Jobst, you are treading on thin ice here. I suspect you are talking
about 'Gore-Tex fabric' not Gore-Tex, which is micro-expanded
polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE). Gore-Tex, PTFE, is used in a number of
applications where it positively, absolutely, without a shadow of a
doubt, has merit. Ask a plumber who uses 'Gore-Tex' tape instead of
pipe dope at threaded junctions. Ask a cardiologist who has implanted
a number of Gore-Tex vascular prosthetics. Ask an orthopedist who has
implanted a number of Gore-Tex ligament replacements. Ask the folks
who make missles and other high spec projects that need wiring with
heat resistant insulation (BTW, the original application of Gore-Tex).
Gore-Tex, PTFE, works. The material sandwiches with Gore-Tex layered
between two slabs of nylon or whatever may not work, but that does not
invalidate the hundreds of applications where the product does work.

As always, these threads get dragged off course into unrelated topics.
It may not be readily apparent but I am talking about Gore-Tex
"breathable clothing" sold to the outdoorsman (aka bicyclist).

The point is that when wet, cloth such as that which covers the inside
and outside of Gore-Tex jackets becomes a sealed wet coating rendering
any gas transmission through the Teflon mesh null. My experience,
riding in rain, was that the jacket became wet, remained wet and took
a long time to dry overnight. The inside became wet even without rain
when riding hard in cold weather because sweat at the rate produced
when exerting oneself, condenses and wets the inner surface rendering
the Gore-Tex as useless as when rained upon. Of course, both
scenarios often coincide.

There is other stuff out the

http://slate.msn.com/id/2085417

This is Slate's comparison of some current "technical" rain jackets. The
conclusions and tests are arguable, but I think the article has enough
detail to be worth study. There's an interesting section called "The
Breathability Wars" that covers the state of breathable fabrics with
some outside expert help.

I have never heard anyone refer to Teflon (Dupont's name for PTFE) as
Gore-Tex except in the realm of textiles, where I assume it only applies
to this special, porous version of a Teflon sheet. some other uses of
Teflon that I am aware of (plumber's tape, chemistry vessels for really
reactive stuff) are very dependent on Teflon being non-porous.

Full disclosu I have a single-layer MEC jacket made of "Super
Microft" which seems to be the worst of all worlds (not very waterproof,
not very breathable) but which I use as a wind-shell or commuting jacket
in near-zero C weather. I have a clear plastic jacket with pit vents
which is cheap, truly waterproof, and held together by duct tape. But
it's the thing for long, wet rides. And I have a new Louis Garneau
jacket made of "Wind-Tex" which I looove. Looks nice, feels great, it's
my favourite cycling garment right now.

http://louisgarneau.com/eng/catalog_...section=CY&sub
section=041&style_no=1030049

The LG jacket, but mine is in team colours.

Share & Enjoy,

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 02:40:16 GMT
wrote:

Jim Adney writes:

is there some way to treat the inside of the tubing to prevent or
slow down the rusting? I heard on this group of a spray that you
fill up the insides with. The frame is steel.

I like LPS-3. You don't fill the frame with it. Just let it coat
everything. Destruction of a frame by rust is extremely rare, but
it does occasionally happen.

To test the value of this advice, I suggest you take a clean piece of
steel, for instance a tinned can with the tin steel wooled off, an
spray some LPS-3 or WD-40 on it before laying it out in the morning
dew for a few days.

It sounds to me like you are thinking of LPS-1, which resembles WD-40
and has minimal rust prevention properties. I would not recommend
LPS-1 for inside frames.

LPS-3 is a much more useful product for this kind of work, and you'd
find that it would pass the test you suggest with flying colors. You
may have trouble finding it, however. Most hardware stores only carry
LPS-1, so you may have to try an industrial supply house.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------