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#21
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rust inside the frame how to treat it
Rick Warner writes:
Gore-Tex are religious icons without merit. Jobst, you are treading on thin ice here. I suspect you are talking about 'Gore-Tex fabric' not Gore-Tex, which is micro-expanded polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE). Gore-Tex, PTFE, is used in a number of applications where it positively, absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt, has merit. Ask a plumber who uses 'Gore-Tex' tape instead of pipe dope at threaded junctions. Ask a cardiologist who has implanted a number of Gore-Tex vascular prosthetics. Ask an orthopedist who has implanted a number of Gore-Tex ligament replacements. Ask the folks who make missles and other high spec projects that need wiring with heat resistant insulation (BTW, the original application of Gore-Tex). Gore-Tex, PTFE, works. The material sandwiches with Gore-Tex layered between two slabs of nylon or whatever may not work, but that does not invalidate the hundreds of applications where the product does work. As always, these threads get dragged off course into unrelated topics. It may not be readily apparent but I am talking about Gore-Tex "breathable clothing" sold to the outdoorsman (aka bicyclist). You may recall as a youth using a pillow case as a flotation device in a swimming pool. Such wet cloth becomes airtight when wet and remains inflated even when submerged. A small pillow case was a cute device that could easily be deflated and hidden inside one's bathing suit in water war games. The point is that when wet, cloth such as that which covers the inside and outside of Gore-Tex jackets becomes a sealed wet coating rendering any gas transmission through the Teflon mesh null. My experience, riding in rain, was that the jacket became wet, remained wet and took a long time to dry overnight. The inside became wet even without rain when riding hard in cold weather because sweat at the rate produced when exerting oneself, condenses and wets the inner surface rendering the Gore-Tex as useless as when rained upon. Of course, both scenarios often coincide. I returned to a waterproof parka with an insulating inner standoff mesh and find it far superior to riding a wet Gore-Tex parka. I don't question that Gore-Tex has scientific applications, only that it does nothing for the active bicyclist and hiker where it is most visibly advertised. I think a survey would show that most riders do not question the claims for this apparel and that the claims are believed. I propose that they are in practice entirely false. You may not recall the early promotional ads for the material showing Mr. Gore languishing well tanned on a deck chair next to a swimming pool looking much like Charles Atlas with a buxom blond at his side. That was the first insult but the sports apparel scam is the probably the greatest. Jobst Brandt |
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#22
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rust inside the frame how to treat it
no expletive dleted! here in boat country...gore tex is de riguer. this
is a chimera? reality check. get the rubber hammer |
#23
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rust inside the frame how to treat it
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#24
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rust inside the frame how to treat it
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#25
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rust inside the frame how to treat it
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#26
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rust inside the frame how to treat it
Rick Warner writes:
... Gore-Tex are religious icons without merit. What was not cited was: WD-40 as Gore-Tex are religious icons without merit. They live entirely on faith. Let's tie and solder spokes again as the ancients did religiously... without merit. Also beware, smooth tread bicycle tires will aquaplane and cause crashes on wet roads... and many more. Jobst, you are treading on thin ice here. I suspect you are talking about 'Gore-Tex fabric' not Gore-Tex, which is micro-expanded polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE). Gore-Tex, PTFE, is used in a number of applications where it positively, absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt, has merit. Ask a plumber who uses 'Gore-Tex' tape instead of pipe dope at threaded junctions. Ask a cardiologist who has implanted a number of Gore-Tex vascular prosthetics. Ask an orthopedist who has implanted a number of Gore-Tex ligament replacements. Ask the folks who make missles and other high spec projects that need wiring with heat resistant insulation (BTW, the original application of Gore-Tex). Gore-Tex, PTFE, works. The material sandwiches with Gore-Tex layered between two slabs of nylon or whatever may not work, but that does not invalidate the hundreds of applications where the product does work. As always, these threads get dragged off course into unrelated topics. Jobst, you are the one who dragged this thread into a discussion involving Gore-Tex. Go back, re-read the thread, in order. I think you edited to suit it your argument and missed the following: As always, these threads get dragged off course into unrelated topics. It may not be readily apparent but I am talking about Gore-Tex "breathable clothing" sold to the outdoorsman (aka bicyclist). So why did you omit the last sentence? You may recall as a youth using a pillow case as a flotation device in a swimming pool. Such wet cloth becomes airtight when wet and remains inflated even when submerged. A small pillow case was a cute device that could easily be deflated and hidden inside one's bathing suit in water war games. The point is that when wet, cloth such as that which covers the inside end outside of Gore-Tex jackets becomes a sealed wet coating rendering any gas transmission through the Teflon mesh null. My experience, riding in rain, was that the jacket became wet, remained wet and took long time to dry overnight. The inside became wet even without rain then riding hard in cold weather because sweat at the rate produced when exerting oneself, condenses and wets the inner surface rendering the Gore-Tex as useless as when rained upon. Of course, both scenarios often coincide. I returned to a waterproof parka with an insulating inner standoff mesh and find it far superior to riding a wet Gore-Tex parka. I don't question that Gore-Tex has scientific applications, only that it does nothing for the active bicyclist and hiker where it is most visibly advertised. I think a survey would show that most riders do not question the claims for this apparel and that the claims are believed. I propose that they are in practice entirely false. ------- Your response to the example presented also skips over evidence that you apparently don't want to discuss. "micro-expanded polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE)" is a wonderful dodge of the issue for people easily snowed by jargon. It may not be readily apparent but I am talking about Gore-Tex "breathable clothing" sold to the outdoorsman (aka bicyclist). It is absolutely not apparent. Of course if you choose to selectively edit and respond there may be no continuity in the original as you seem to want to show. I know folks who use Gore-Tex tape when installing bottom brackets. I know cyclists with Gore-Tex ligaments. Gore-Tex clothing is but one small product line for the company, and all the products bear Gore-Tex in the name. The clothing line was not even close to being the first product application (insulation for high spec wiring was, starting in 1954). My point is, be careful with your verbage, something you warn others about from time to time. I think I hear not right! "High spec wiring"? I'm talking about "breathable clothing". As I said, it's amazing how these threads get dragged off course to disagree about something that was not at hand. As I said, there are many technical applications for this material but they are not sports clothing. Whether you are defending Gore-Tex or just arguing for argument's sake is unclear. You state no contrary evidence or opinion on the subject other then to take issue with my writing about it. I think sophist response fits. Washington needs more writers like that. Jobst Brandt |
#27
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rust inside the frame how to treat it
On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 23:37:38 GMT,
wrote: [snip] I think I hear not right! [snip] Dear Yoda, May the mass/acceleration be with you! Fluke Whytalker |
#28
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rust inside the frame how to treat it
In article ,
wrote: Ron Sonic writes: I also own vice-grips. I don't know what your fetish has to do with bicycle lubricants, but maybe you mean "Vise-Grips": http://tinyurl.com/8zcm6 Jobst Brandt Ron can't define a vice-grip, but he knows it when he sees it. http://library.findlaw.com/2003/May/15/132747.html -- Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/ "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos |
#30
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rust inside the frame how to treat it
On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 02:40:16 GMT
wrote: Jim Adney writes: is there some way to treat the inside of the tubing to prevent or slow down the rusting? I heard on this group of a spray that you fill up the insides with. The frame is steel. I like LPS-3. You don't fill the frame with it. Just let it coat everything. Destruction of a frame by rust is extremely rare, but it does occasionally happen. To test the value of this advice, I suggest you take a clean piece of steel, for instance a tinned can with the tin steel wooled off, an spray some LPS-3 or WD-40 on it before laying it out in the morning dew for a few days. It sounds to me like you are thinking of LPS-1, which resembles WD-40 and has minimal rust prevention properties. I would not recommend LPS-1 for inside frames. LPS-3 is a much more useful product for this kind of work, and you'd find that it would pass the test you suggest with flying colors. You may have trouble finding it, however. Most hardware stores only carry LPS-1, so you may have to try an industrial supply house. - ----------------------------------------------- Jim Adney Madison, WI 53711 USA ----------------------------------------------- |
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