More spokes or bigger spokes for a stronger wheel?

I was pretty sure my next 700c rear wheel was going to be a Velocity
36H fusion with 14-15-14 db spokes on both sides. Speaking with a
wheelbuilder, he suggested I consider 32H with some 2.3mm tapering to
2.0 all the way to the nipple (pretty much MTB downhill spokes) on the
drive side, and 14-15-14 db on the non-drive side.

Interesting thought. It seems that the weight differences will be
minimal.

Anyone have any experience with this? I'm more concerned with torque
strength than impact strength.

Thanks,
Mike

wrote:
I was pretty sure my next 700c rear wheel was going to be a Velocity
36H fusion with 14-15-14 db spokes on both sides. Speaking with a
wheelbuilder, he suggested I consider 32H with some 2.3mm tapering to
2.0 all the way to the nipple (pretty much MTB downhill spokes) on the
drive side, and 14-15-14 db on the non-drive side.

I'll toss ya a bone until the real experts respond...

The idea of using stiffer spokes on the drive side makes sense, and
butting is also a good idea, but if I was you I'd lean towards lighter
spokes and more of them. A common failure mode is rim cracking at the
eyelets, and heavier spokes tend to make this more likely. Light spokes
(1.6 or 1.5 mm center sections; 16 or 17g) are "strong enough" to
achieve the tension that the rim is capable of (usually 100kg).

..Another common failure mode is spoke fatigue from spokes going
*slack*, rather than being too tight. Again, heavier spokes are more
likely to exhibit this behaviour, because for a given tension load it
takes less relative motion for them to lose tension.

Wheel stiffness is higher with thick spokes... but tests have shown
that the effect is very small. Personally I'm interested in wheel
strength, but I think stiffness is pretty irrelevant, anyway.

So... lighter spokes are of course weaker all by themselves... but
oddly once you put them into a wheel, the entire unit may have a longer
fatigue life. The biggest problem with light spokes is that it is
tougher to build with them, since they twist so easily.

BTW, if you are interested in competing with these wheels, you can
realize a small speed boost (couple 10ths of a mph) by using oval
spokes. Wheelsmith AE15s are the only ones I know of that are
reasonably priced ($1 each). They start life as 15/16g db spokes. You
could put 14/15 db spokes on the drive side, and AE15s elsewhere...
it's what I'd do, anyway.

Mike wrote:

I was pretty sure my next 700c rear wheel was going to be a Velocity
36H fusion with 14-15-14 db spokes on both sides. Speaking with a
wheelbuilder, he suggested I consider 32H with some 2.3mm tapering to
2.0 all the way to the nipple (pretty much MTB downhill spokes) on the
drive side, and 14-15-14 db on the non-drive side.


The first consideration when choosing components for a wheel is your
own weight and type of riding. A 150 lb recreational cyclist riding
easy on smooth roads has different requirements than a 250 lb cyclist
riding on bad roads, or a racer. So we need to know more about you.

That said, your initial choice (36h Velocity Fusion with 14-15-14
spokes) sounds fine. I'm kinda leary of the 2.3 mm spokes.

Using thinner spokes, and more of them, allows loads to be shared among
more spokes. That's a good thing. It reduces the chance of a spoke
going slack when subjected to a locally hard impact. When a spoke goes
slack, the nipple can turn and the wheel will go out of true.

On a typical 9/10 speed rear wheel, the left side spokes will have only
about half the tension of the right side spokes. Using thinner spokes
on the left side will make them less likely to go slack. Depending on
your weight, you might want something like 36 spokes with 14-15-14 on
the right, and 15-16-15 on the left.

Art Harris

wrote:
I was pretty sure my next 700c rear wheel was going to be a Velocity
36H fusion with 14-15-14 db spokes on both sides. Speaking with a
wheelbuilder, he suggested I consider 32H with some 2.3mm tapering to
2.0 all the way to the nipple (pretty much MTB downhill spokes) on the
drive side, and 14-15-14 db on the non-drive side.

Interesting thought. It seems that the weight differences will be
minimal.

How about 'alpine' spokes in 36? Why is this wheelbuilder worrying you
about 30 grams or so?

More spokes is the answer, not fat spokes, I'm distressed this
'wheelbuilder' would even suggest such a thing. 36, 14/15 all around is
the answer...not some mixing 'scheme' that will buy you nothing.

Anyone have any experience with this? I'm more concerned with torque
strength than impact strength.

Thanks,
Mike

wrote:
I was pretty sure my next 700c rear wheel was going to be a Velocity
36H fusion with 14-15-14 db spokes on both sides. Speaking with a
wheelbuilder, he suggested I consider 32H with some 2.3mm tapering to
2.0 all the way to the nipple (pretty much MTB downhill spokes) on the
drive side, and 14-15-14 db on the non-drive side.

Interesting thought. It seems that the weight differences will be
minimal.

Anyone have any experience with this? I'm more concerned with torque
strength than impact strength.

Thanks,
Mike


it'll have some benefit for fatigue strength, [/if/ the spoke elbow
offset suits the hub flange thickness] and it'll be stiffer. but it
won't affect impact strength, that's the rim's problem. and torque
strength with any spoke is well in excess of any load you can generate.

what kind of riding is it for? increased stiffness may be a benefit if
your bike shimmies.

On 29 Dec 2005 21:19:49 -0800, wrote:

Speaking with a
wheelbuilder, he suggested I consider 32H with some 2.3mm tapering to
2.0 all the way to the nipple (pretty much MTB downhill spokes) on the
drive side, and 14-15-14 db on the non-drive side.

The spoke holes on road hubs are usually not wide enough to properly
hold a 2.3 mm wire.

Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
...
More spokes is the answer, not fat spokes, I'm distressed this
'wheelbuilder' would even suggest such a thing. 36, 14/15 all around is
the answer...not some mixing 'scheme' that will buy you nothing.

I have two bicycles with ISO 305-mm (16-inch fractional) wheels. Is 36
1.8-mm (15 gauge) spokes enough for this wheel size?

--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley

"Someone" wrote in message
oups.com...

Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
...
More spokes is the answer, not fat spokes, I'm distressed this
'wheelbuilder' would even suggest such a thing. 36, 14/15 all around is
the answer...not some mixing 'scheme' that will buy you nothing.

I have two bicycles with ISO 305-mm (16-inch fractional) wheels. Is 36
1.8-mm (15 gauge) spokes enough for this wheel size?


I have one of those as well. It used to have 349 rims, but they were steel
and I wanted 305's. The 305's I could get locally were cheap, but 20-hole.
That should indicate the number of spoke that would be adequate. I have
some 298 rim wheels, they are 28 rear and 20 front.

To use the 305's I had to get the old holes welded shut and drill new 36
ones (had to do this as the hubs I wished to use were 36's).

Paul Kopit Wrote:
On 29 Dec 2005 21:19:49 -0800, wrote:

Speaking with a
wheelbuilder, he suggested I consider 32H with some 2.3mm tapering to
2.0 all the way to the nipple (pretty much MTB downhill spokes) on
the
drive side, and 14-15-14 db on the non-drive side.

The spoke holes on road hubs are usually not wide enough to properly
hold a 2.3 mm wire.
I use Sapim Strong with 2.3 mm diameter at hub end, DT Alpine III (aslo
2.3 mm at hub), and in the past Wheelsmith 13/14 DH spokes. They all
fit fine in the Shimano, Phil Wood, Campagnolo, Edco, Suntour,
Specialized, etc. hubs I have used.
The only advantage I can think of for 32H is more readily available
hubs and rims. With Velocity Fusion, this is not an issue. If you are
looking for a Dura Ace FH-7700 in 36H it certainly may be an issue.
I think 36 spokes is worth it.
I disagree with Peter Chisholm about mixing spoke guages. As another
responder already mentioned, the drive side spokes carry most of the
load in the rear wheel. You will get a slight additional margin of
strength by having the left spokes with thinner middle sections. The
thinner middle sections on the left side spokes keeps them from going
slack and thus no longer supporting the rim... also allowing for nipple
"back-off".. and further degrading the wheel perfomance.
Sapim Strong spokes are difficult to find in most lengths. I have also
experienced "long neck" Alpine III DT spokes.
I have had mixed results with Wheelsmith 13/14 DB spokes and no longer
use them. We still ride a 26" wheeled tandem with the WS DH spokes
without any problems.


--
daveornee

Paul Kopit wrote:
On 29 Dec 2005 21:19:49 -0800, wrote:

Speaking with a
wheelbuilder, he suggested I consider 32H with some 2.3mm tapering to
2.0 all the way to the nipple (pretty much MTB downhill spokes) on the
drive side, and 14-15-14 db on the non-drive side.

The spoke holes on road hubs are usually not wide enough to properly
hold a 2.3 mm wire.

What happens? Is it impossible to get the "J" bend through the spoke
hole? Or does the bevel @ the head not seat, causing the spoke to stick
out at an angle away from the rim? Or something else? Many hub spoke
holes are, unfortunately IMHO, larger than 2.3mm.