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How old before it's considered vintage? Or Antique?



 
 
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  #21  
Old June 17th 14, 04:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
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Default How old before it's considered vintage? Or Antique?

On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 13:51:42 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

How old does a bicycle or part need to be before it's considered vintage?


In electronics, something is vintage when the manufacturer refuses to
supply replacement parts:
http://support.apple.com/kb/ht1752
This is sometimes called "designed obsolescence".

HOw old does a bicycle or part need to be before it's considered antique?


There's an intermediate stage called "obsolete". That's when
something prevents using the bicycle in its originally intended
manner. That might be due to the risk of having it fall apart,
defective metallurgy, inadequate mandated safety devices, or
insufficient durability of some components (leaky tubes).

I would think that it would be considered an "antique" when even the
owner would have second thoughts about riding it, or possibly when the
major dealers selling the bicycle are all purveyors of antiques.

I don't think 2001 stuff qualifies as either vintage or antique. Does it?


Well, if it's an Apple computah, 2001 most certainly does qualify as
both vintage and antique. However, bicycle age at a much slower rate,
and may not be old enough to qualify.

In my never humble opinion, the dealer is who determines when
something is an antique. Antique dealers sell used merchandise for
far higher prices than what one would normally consider its value for
utilitarian purposes. In other words, the value is not in the
bicycles use, but rather it's rarity, oddity, or value as a collectors
item. On a timeline, a typical antique bicycle would show an
initially high value (inflation adjusted), which declines to
worthlessness over some period of years. At some point, the antique
dealers take over from the junk and scrap dealers and sell the bicycle
as an antique, thus raising the selling price and value. I think this
is the date that you're looking for.

There is also a criteria for what might be considered an antique.
Rarity is certainly a requirement. Oddity, uniqueness, and documented
history, are also important as in a bicycle owned by a famous person.
You have only to watch Antique Roadshow on TV to see how it works.

The actual value of an antique bicycle is primarily set by what buyers
are willing to pay for it. If it's sufficiently collectable, the
prices can be astronomical. To get there requires promotion,
documentation, and possibly a shill[1] make it look desirable and
increase the selling price. For example, if you owned a bicycle that
was ridden by an obscure racer that won a few odd races, getting
articles published featuring the racer and his "miraculous machine"
might gain sufficient attention to make it desirable owning the
bicycle.

I guess if something fails to sell at auction, it's no longer an
antique, and is reclassified as "junk".



[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
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  #22  
Old June 19th 14, 08:52 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg
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Default How old before it's considered vintage? Or Antique?

wrote:

http://www.nostalgic.net/1951monark-...estone-holiday


Now that's a true vintage bicycle!

The "Golden Spoke" bicycle shop in Placerville (CA) has one of these:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny-...locipedist.JPG

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #23  
Old June 19th 14, 09:19 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg
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Posts: 55
Default How old before it's considered vintage? Or Antique?

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 13:51:42 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

How old does a bicycle or part need to be before it's considered vintage?


In electronics, something is vintage when the manufacturer refuses to
supply replacement parts:
http://support.apple.com/kb/ht1752
This is sometimes called "designed obsolescence".

HOw old does a bicycle or part need to be before it's considered antique?


There's an intermediate stage called "obsolete". That's when
something prevents using the bicycle in its originally intended
manner. That might be due to the risk of having it fall apart,
defective metallurgy, inadequate mandated safety devices, or
insufficient durability of some components (leaky tubes).


Leaky tubes are never an excuse. Case in point: A MTB riding buddy blew
out the rear tube. Shredded, unfixable, but miles out there in the bush.
He didn't have a spare. I had a 29" spare tube but his bike was a 26".
Scratched my head ... what the heck ... put it in, distributed the
excess as best as we could, pumped it up - worked!

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #24  
Old June 19th 14, 11:31 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Default How old before it's considered vintage? Or Antique?

category


http://goo.gl/FI2Idk

  #25  
Old June 20th 14, 03:19 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
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Default How old before it's considered vintage? Or Antique?

On Tuesday, June 17, 2014 11:55:11 AM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

In my never humble opinion, the dealer is who determines when

something is an antique. Antique dealers sell used merchandise for

far higher prices than what one would normally consider its value for

utilitarian purposes. In other words, the value is not in the

bicycles use, but rather it's rarity, oddity, or value as a collectors

item. On a timeline, a typical antique bicycle would show an

initially high value (inflation adjusted), which declines to

worthlessness over some period of years. At some point, the antique

dealers take over from the junk and scrap dealers and sell the bicycle

as an antique, thus raising the selling price and value. I think this

is the date that you're looking for.



There is also a criteria for what might be considered an antique.

Rarity is certainly a requirement. Oddity, uniqueness, and documented

history, are also important as in a bicycle owned by a famous person.

You have only to watch Antique Roadshow on TV to see how it works.



The actual value of an antique bicycle is primarily set by what buyers

are willing to pay for it. If it's sufficiently collectable, the

prices can be astronomical. To get there requires promotion,

documentation, and possibly a shill[1] make it look desirable and

increase the selling price.


I mentioned that friend who owns two Ordinaries. Well, in about 1990
(pre WWW) I got curious about converting historic prices to current
dollars. So I dug out inflation data from the Consumer Price Index and
a couple other sources, and wrote a program to compute equivalent prices
for any two years, dating back to something like the 1830s. (Of course,
these days one can just look that up on the Web.)

Anyway, when I told the owner of those bikes, he asked me to put in a
certain price for the year 1886 or so, and convert it to modern dollars.
I gave him the result.

Turns out the price he gave me was the list price for his Ordinary in
the year it was manufactured. And the result I gave him back was the
exact amount he'd paid for the bike in modern times.

What that meant is the modern rarity of the bike plus its historic value
had added no monetary value. When adjusted for inflation, the bike had
not gained any value at all.

That surprised both of us. I think it also dismayed him just a little.

- Frank Krygowski
  #26  
Old June 20th 14, 04:03 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Default How old before it's considered vintage? Or Antique?

? He has a good investment but who would he sell it to ?

I did that searching for a social/economic level for bicycling in that time period. Same as today.

Tho here are near exceptions with presumed mint un-driven vehicles, a Lancia Zagato surfaces in my mind at over 100, most rare 90 point vehicles are not up to Dow Jones/S&P/gold market returns.

How beat Berkshire ? Or Boing/Apple/Intel/Micro ?

Now take the Shekel....One Shekel invested at 3%....

10 invested in 1970 gives 1.5 today.
  #27  
Old June 20th 14, 04:07 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Default How old before it's considered vintage? Or Antique?

On Thursday, June 19, 2014 11:03:52 PM UTC-4, wrote:
? He has a good investment but who would he sell it to ?



I did that searching for a social/economic level for bicycling in that time period. Same as today.



Tho here are near exceptions with presumed mint un-driven vehicles, a Lancia Zagato surfaces in my mind at over 100, most rare 90 point vehicles are not up to Dow Jones/S&P/gold market returns.



How beat Berkshire ? Or Boing/Apple/Intel/Micro ?



Now take the Shekel....One Shekel invested at 3%....



10 invested in 1970 gives 1.5 today.


zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzick

category


http://goo.gl/dXjYyv
  #28  
Old June 20th 14, 04:18 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Dan O
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Default How old before it's considered vintage? Or Antique?

On Thursday, June 19, 2014 7:19:42 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, June 17, 2014 11:55:11 AM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:


snip

The actual value of an antique bicycle is primarily set by what buyers
are willing to pay for it. If it's sufficiently collectable, the
prices can be astronomical. To get there requires promotion,
documentation, and possibly a shill[1] make it look desirable and
increase the selling price.


I mentioned that friend who owns two Ordinaries. ... in about 1990
... I dug out inflation data from the Consumer Price Index and
a couple other sources...

... a
certain price for the year 1886 or so, and convert it to modern dollars.

... the list price for his Ordinary in
the year it was manufactured. ... [translated to] the
exact amount he'd paid for the bike in modern times.

What that meant is the modern rarity of the bike plus its historic value
had added no monetary value.


Bzzzzzzzt!

What gave it value when new? Function (mostly), right? Is
that its value today (or 1990)? No, so its modern monetary
value must be (mostly) in some other attributes, such as historic
interest (make a note of that word, "interest").

(You cannot really ascertain its market value based only on what
your friend paid for it, anyway.)

When adjusted for inflation, the bike had
not gained any value at all.


Had not appreciated as a 100 year investment, you mean?

You could certainly do worse (or better). But without
some value as a "collectible", it would have lost most
of its market value.

That surprised both of us.


That's because you both have some interest (see, there's
that word - it imparts "value") in bicycles, and because
you are both cognitively challenged.

I think it also dismayed him just a little.


Well, it was his money, his values, and his ego.

(Wow, a hundred years of inflation - he must have shelled
out a lot of clams for that old thing :-)
  #29  
Old June 20th 14, 04:56 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Dan O
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Default How old before it's considered vintage? Or Antique?

On Monday, June 16, 2014 1:51:42 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
How old does a bicycle or part need to be before it's considered vintage?


As I said earlier, no longer in production (by that I meant,
and as alluded to by someone else, when replacement parts
needed to maintain it are no longer being produced).

HOw old does a bicycle or part need to be before it's considered antique?


~IMO, pre- drop bars.

I don't think 2001 stuff qualifies as either vintage or antique. Does it?


It might. It depends.
  #30  
Old June 20th 14, 04:59 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Default How old before it's considered vintage? Or Antique?

It depends.


http://goo.gl/ttyD2a

 




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