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How old before it's considered vintage? Or Antique?
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 13:51:42 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote: How old does a bicycle or part need to be before it's considered vintage? In electronics, something is vintage when the manufacturer refuses to supply replacement parts: http://support.apple.com/kb/ht1752 This is sometimes called "designed obsolescence". HOw old does a bicycle or part need to be before it's considered antique? There's an intermediate stage called "obsolete". That's when something prevents using the bicycle in its originally intended manner. That might be due to the risk of having it fall apart, defective metallurgy, inadequate mandated safety devices, or insufficient durability of some components (leaky tubes). I would think that it would be considered an "antique" when even the owner would have second thoughts about riding it, or possibly when the major dealers selling the bicycle are all purveyors of antiques. I don't think 2001 stuff qualifies as either vintage or antique. Does it? Well, if it's an Apple computah, 2001 most certainly does qualify as both vintage and antique. However, bicycle age at a much slower rate, and may not be old enough to qualify. In my never humble opinion, the dealer is who determines when something is an antique. Antique dealers sell used merchandise for far higher prices than what one would normally consider its value for utilitarian purposes. In other words, the value is not in the bicycles use, but rather it's rarity, oddity, or value as a collectors item. On a timeline, a typical antique bicycle would show an initially high value (inflation adjusted), which declines to worthlessness over some period of years. At some point, the antique dealers take over from the junk and scrap dealers and sell the bicycle as an antique, thus raising the selling price and value. I think this is the date that you're looking for. There is also a criteria for what might be considered an antique. Rarity is certainly a requirement. Oddity, uniqueness, and documented history, are also important as in a bicycle owned by a famous person. You have only to watch Antique Roadshow on TV to see how it works. The actual value of an antique bicycle is primarily set by what buyers are willing to pay for it. If it's sufficiently collectable, the prices can be astronomical. To get there requires promotion, documentation, and possibly a shill[1] make it look desirable and increase the selling price. For example, if you owned a bicycle that was ridden by an obscure racer that won a few odd races, getting articles published featuring the racer and his "miraculous machine" might gain sufficient attention to make it desirable owning the bicycle. I guess if something fails to sell at auction, it's no longer an antique, and is reclassified as "junk". [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
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How old before it's considered vintage? Or Antique?
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#23
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How old before it's considered vintage? Or Antique?
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 13:51:42 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot wrote: How old does a bicycle or part need to be before it's considered vintage? In electronics, something is vintage when the manufacturer refuses to supply replacement parts: http://support.apple.com/kb/ht1752 This is sometimes called "designed obsolescence". HOw old does a bicycle or part need to be before it's considered antique? There's an intermediate stage called "obsolete". That's when something prevents using the bicycle in its originally intended manner. That might be due to the risk of having it fall apart, defective metallurgy, inadequate mandated safety devices, or insufficient durability of some components (leaky tubes). Leaky tubes are never an excuse. Case in point: A MTB riding buddy blew out the rear tube. Shredded, unfixable, but miles out there in the bush. He didn't have a spare. I had a 29" spare tube but his bike was a 26". Scratched my head ... what the heck ... put it in, distributed the excess as best as we could, pumped it up - worked! [...] -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
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How old before it's considered vintage? Or Antique?
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#25
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How old before it's considered vintage? Or Antique?
On Tuesday, June 17, 2014 11:55:11 AM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
In my never humble opinion, the dealer is who determines when something is an antique. Antique dealers sell used merchandise for far higher prices than what one would normally consider its value for utilitarian purposes. In other words, the value is not in the bicycles use, but rather it's rarity, oddity, or value as a collectors item. On a timeline, a typical antique bicycle would show an initially high value (inflation adjusted), which declines to worthlessness over some period of years. At some point, the antique dealers take over from the junk and scrap dealers and sell the bicycle as an antique, thus raising the selling price and value. I think this is the date that you're looking for. There is also a criteria for what might be considered an antique. Rarity is certainly a requirement. Oddity, uniqueness, and documented history, are also important as in a bicycle owned by a famous person. You have only to watch Antique Roadshow on TV to see how it works. The actual value of an antique bicycle is primarily set by what buyers are willing to pay for it. If it's sufficiently collectable, the prices can be astronomical. To get there requires promotion, documentation, and possibly a shill[1] make it look desirable and increase the selling price. I mentioned that friend who owns two Ordinaries. Well, in about 1990 (pre WWW) I got curious about converting historic prices to current dollars. So I dug out inflation data from the Consumer Price Index and a couple other sources, and wrote a program to compute equivalent prices for any two years, dating back to something like the 1830s. (Of course, these days one can just look that up on the Web.) Anyway, when I told the owner of those bikes, he asked me to put in a certain price for the year 1886 or so, and convert it to modern dollars. I gave him the result. Turns out the price he gave me was the list price for his Ordinary in the year it was manufactured. And the result I gave him back was the exact amount he'd paid for the bike in modern times. What that meant is the modern rarity of the bike plus its historic value had added no monetary value. When adjusted for inflation, the bike had not gained any value at all. That surprised both of us. I think it also dismayed him just a little. - Frank Krygowski |
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How old before it's considered vintage? Or Antique?
? He has a good investment but who would he sell it to ?
I did that searching for a social/economic level for bicycling in that time period. Same as today. Tho here are near exceptions with presumed mint un-driven vehicles, a Lancia Zagato surfaces in my mind at over 100, most rare 90 point vehicles are not up to Dow Jones/S&P/gold market returns. How beat Berkshire ? Or Boing/Apple/Intel/Micro ? Now take the Shekel....One Shekel invested at 3%.... 10 invested in 1970 gives 1.5 today. |
#27
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How old before it's considered vintage? Or Antique?
On Thursday, June 19, 2014 11:03:52 PM UTC-4, wrote:
? He has a good investment but who would he sell it to ? I did that searching for a social/economic level for bicycling in that time period. Same as today. Tho here are near exceptions with presumed mint un-driven vehicles, a Lancia Zagato surfaces in my mind at over 100, most rare 90 point vehicles are not up to Dow Jones/S&P/gold market returns. How beat Berkshire ? Or Boing/Apple/Intel/Micro ? Now take the Shekel....One Shekel invested at 3%.... 10 invested in 1970 gives 1.5 today. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzick category http://goo.gl/dXjYyv |
#28
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How old before it's considered vintage? Or Antique?
On Thursday, June 19, 2014 7:19:42 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, June 17, 2014 11:55:11 AM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote: snip The actual value of an antique bicycle is primarily set by what buyers are willing to pay for it. If it's sufficiently collectable, the prices can be astronomical. To get there requires promotion, documentation, and possibly a shill[1] make it look desirable and increase the selling price. I mentioned that friend who owns two Ordinaries. ... in about 1990 ... I dug out inflation data from the Consumer Price Index and a couple other sources... ... a certain price for the year 1886 or so, and convert it to modern dollars. ... the list price for his Ordinary in the year it was manufactured. ... [translated to] the exact amount he'd paid for the bike in modern times. What that meant is the modern rarity of the bike plus its historic value had added no monetary value. Bzzzzzzzt! What gave it value when new? Function (mostly), right? Is that its value today (or 1990)? No, so its modern monetary value must be (mostly) in some other attributes, such as historic interest (make a note of that word, "interest"). (You cannot really ascertain its market value based only on what your friend paid for it, anyway.) When adjusted for inflation, the bike had not gained any value at all. Had not appreciated as a 100 year investment, you mean? You could certainly do worse (or better). But without some value as a "collectible", it would have lost most of its market value. That surprised both of us. That's because you both have some interest (see, there's that word - it imparts "value") in bicycles, and because you are both cognitively challenged. I think it also dismayed him just a little. Well, it was his money, his values, and his ego. (Wow, a hundred years of inflation - he must have shelled out a lot of clams for that old thing :-) |
#29
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How old before it's considered vintage? Or Antique?
On Monday, June 16, 2014 1:51:42 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
How old does a bicycle or part need to be before it's considered vintage? As I said earlier, no longer in production (by that I meant, and as alluded to by someone else, when replacement parts needed to maintain it are no longer being produced). HOw old does a bicycle or part need to be before it's considered antique? ~IMO, pre- drop bars. I don't think 2001 stuff qualifies as either vintage or antique. Does it? It might. It depends. |
#30
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How old before it's considered vintage? Or Antique?
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