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what is the blue/cyanic stuff sometimes found in bolt threads?



 
 
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  #21  
Old July 3rd 16, 03:05 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
(PeteCresswell)
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Posts: 2,790
Default what is the blue/cyanic stuff sometimes found in bolt threads?

Per Jeff Liebermann:
Today, people actually clean their bicycles, which I believe is
responsible for the plague of thread locking compounds. Lost are the
benefits of rust, dirt, and grease to deal with loose hardware. On a
clean bicycle, things are more likely to fall off than on a rusted or
dirty bicycle.


That seems to support my own (tongue-in-cheek until now) belief that a
layer of mud and other crud acts as a protective layer....
https://picasaweb.google.com/1081497...00035650205282
--
Pete Cresswell
Ads
  #22  
Old July 3rd 16, 04:07 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default what is the blue/cyanic stuff sometimes found in bolt threads?

On 7/3/2016 5:14 AM, Tosspot wrote:

At this point I'd like to interject a new discovery on my part, which
you probably all knew about anyway;

http://na.henkel-adhesives.com/loctite-sticks-6180.htm

Which are apparently the dogs wobblers, being the real deal, without all
the messy fluids.


Nice! When I find one of those for sale, it will go in my touring
bike's bag.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #23  
Old July 3rd 16, 06:41 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
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Posts: 4,018
Default what is the blue/cyanic stuff sometimes found in bolt threads?

On Sun, 3 Jul 2016 11:14:37 +0200, Tosspot
wrote:

At this point I'd like to interject a new discovery on my part, which
you probably all knew about anyway;

http://na.henkel-adhesives.com/loctite-sticks-6180.htm

Which are apparently the dogs wobblers, being the real deal, without all
the messy fluids.


What's a "dog wobbler"? Loose hardware?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wobbler_disease

How to apply:
http://na.henkel-adhesives.com/industrial/loctite-sticks-how-to-apply-6227.htm

Available as an assortment for about $65 per 5 sticks. Ouch.
Typical price per stick is $15 to $20. Ouch again:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/381434564269
http://na.henkel-adhesives.com/product-search-1554.htm?nodeid=8797884940289
http://www.sears.com/search=loctite%2038725%20loctite%20thread%20treatm ent%20sticks%20kit
I've looked at those sticks at the local auto parts store. Then I
looked at the price and bought the much cheaper $5/bottle liquid
flavor.

Hint: Back in the stone age, before Loctite, my father and I were
using model airplane dope and nail polish (both mostly nitrocellulose)
as thread lock on his sewing machines and attachments. Vibration on
industrial sewing machines can be fairly severe and thread lock is a
necessity. One advantage of these over cyanoacrylate based thread
locking compounds is that they don't take 24 hrs to set.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #24  
Old July 3rd 16, 08:20 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 13,447
Default what is the blue/cyanic stuff sometimes found in bolt threads?

On 7/2/2016 12:27 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
"
writes:

Sold by every auto parts store.
And apparently the big hardware stores too.
Blue means its removable, you can unscrew the
bolt with a wrench but the bolt will not
unscrew by itself when in use. Red Loctite is
permanent and you cannot remove the bolt.
Most folks think Loctite is good in most
situations. Most folks don't want to clean
it off.


Aha!

So it still works even when it fills the thread
gap because it is softer...

It must be strong in some sense tho because
often even for a long screw only three or four
laps have it!

Do you use it when you cannot have a stop nut
on the other side? Or is it still beneficial?


Nope.
Loctite is an anaerobic adhesive. It crystallizes in the
absence of oxygen (i.e., after the threaded piece is tight).
May be degraded/released with heat later if desired.

see henkel.com

Holy crap they even have a Svensk page! Read on:
http://www.henkel.se/

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #25  
Old July 3rd 16, 10:10 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Mark J.
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Posts: 840
Default what is the blue/cyanic stuff sometimes found in bolt threads?

On 7/3/2016 12:20 PM, AMuzi wrote:
Loctite is an anaerobic adhesive. It crystallizes in the absence of
oxygen (i.e., after the threaded piece is tight). May be
degraded/released with heat later if desired.

see henkel.com


Maybe you can clarify something that's confused me on the blue loctite
issue:

I've applied loctite often enough, it "goes on" in liquid form, and then
I assemble the piece, and the loctite is hidden. I don't think I've
ever disassembled one of those pieces, so I don't know what it looks
like after it sets. [I tend to think of loctite as a means of last resort.]

However:

On, say, new disk brake rotor bolts or (new) square-taper crank bolts, I
see the blue stuff manufacturers have applied. It's not liquid and
appears to be a somewhat soft, perhaps granulated solid. Maybe I only
see the granulation when I later remove the bolt and the blue stuff
appears to have crumbled.

Question: Is the liquid blue loctite and the soft solid I'm seeing on
OEM parts the same stuff?

Mark J.

  #26  
Old July 3rd 16, 11:12 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default what is the blue/cyanic stuff sometimes found in bolt threads?

On 7/3/2016 5:10 PM, Mark J. wrote:
On 7/3/2016 12:20 PM, AMuzi wrote:
Loctite is an anaerobic adhesive. It crystallizes in the absence of
oxygen (i.e., after the threaded piece is tight). May be
degraded/released with heat later if desired.

see henkel.com


Maybe you can clarify something that's confused me on the blue loctite
issue:

I've applied loctite often enough, it "goes on" in liquid form, and then
I assemble the piece, and the loctite is hidden. I don't think I've
ever disassembled one of those pieces, so I don't know what it looks
like after it sets. [I tend to think of loctite as a means of last
resort.]

However:

On, say, new disk brake rotor bolts or (new) square-taper crank bolts, I
see the blue stuff manufacturers have applied. It's not liquid and
appears to be a somewhat soft, perhaps granulated solid. Maybe I only
see the granulation when I later remove the bolt and the blue stuff
appears to have crumbled.

Question: Is the liquid blue loctite and the soft solid I'm seeing on
OEM parts the same stuff?


I don't think so. There are many different varieties of thread locking
compounds. As Andrew said, the most common liquid stuff is an anaerobic
compound, one specifically designed to harden in the absence of air.

I've removed lots of screws that were retained with blue loctite. The
stuff doesn't stay blue. IIRC, it ends up some vaguely tan color.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #27  
Old July 4th 16, 12:03 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_6_]
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Posts: 2,202
Default what is the blue/cyanic stuff sometimes found in bolt threads?

On Sat, 02 Jul 2016 21:17:57 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 10:41:25 +0700, John B.
wrote:

"Back in the day", bicycles were usually assembled without using any
form of thread locking device/material and very seldom did anything
fall off.

Today it seems that everything has loktite on it.


Back when I was a terror on 2 wheels (early 1960's), I would ride
around on my bicycle with most everything almost ready to fall off.
Just about everything on my various bicycles was loose. What saved
the bicycle from self disassembly was rust, dirt, and grease. The
combination of dirt and grease on bolts, threads, studs, etc acted
much like thread locking compounds, except it was applied on the
outside. It took about the same amount of time for the rust, dirt,
and grease to form as it did for the bolts to work themselves loose.
Since I never bothered to clean the bicycle, the arrangement worked
quite well, and little hardware was lost. Banging on the handle bars,
tolerating rattles, and tying down hardware with kite string was
deemed normal.

Today, people actually clean their bicycles, which I believe is
responsible for the plague of thread locking compounds. Lost are the
benefits of rust, dirt, and grease to deal with loose hardware. On a
clean bicycle, things are more likely to fall off than on a rusted or
dirty bicycle. This tends to attract product liability litigation,
which might suggest that the manufacturer was selling a device that
might suddenly self-disassemble causing grievous injuries worthy of
astronomical awards. Worse, the common availability of thread locking
solutions might suggest that the manufacturer knew about the problem,
ignored the obvious solutions, and is therefore negligent. Since
pre-coating the fasteners with rust, dirt, and grease is not an
acceptable solution, thread lock is used. Whether it is needed or
does anything useful is not part of the question.

The front forks also have a little sign on them saying "failure to
tighten this nut may cause the wheel to fall off".


That's the warning label problem. Part of the judgment of a product
liability suit is usually a recommendation by the court that a warning
label be affixed to the faulty device to inform users of the hazard.
Such warnings allegedly convert the plaintiff from an grievously
injured victim of a hazardous product, to a complete idiot unable to
read and follow instructions.

http://forums.mtbr.com/passion/when-mountain-bike-warning-labels-go-too-far-940742.html


I assume from news reports that the U.S. courts are there to protect
the mentally deficient, or those completely ga-ga. If I remember,
there is some sort of ruling that when you buy something that you have
a right to expect it to do whatever it was sold to do.

But equally, when a company sells a 3 or 4 thousand dollar bicycle
shouldn't they have the right to assume, for instance, that the
purchaser is mentally competent enough to put the wheels on?

And what about the people that can't read -
http://www.statisticbrain.com/number...who-cant-read/
32 million adults in the U.S. can't read. That's 14 percent of the
population. 21 percent of adults in the U.S. read below a 5th grade
level, and 19 percent of high school graduates can't read.

I don't have a date for the study but the article was dated December,
2014 and refers to "According to a study conducted in late April by
the U.S. Department of Education and the National Institute of
Literacy" which that says was conducted "last year".

Perhaps there is a place for an electronics guy that could design a
tiny little device that would include a proximity sensor and a tiny
speaker that, when anyone came near, would say, "If you don't tighten
the nut the wheel may come off".

Probably get them knocked out in Shanghai for what, maybe $0.24 each,
shipping is pretty cheap so $0.99 cents to the bike company in lots
of, say 1,000. In a year or so you could hire a Lobbyist and get, at
least a state, regulation that these are a necessity to avoid the
possibility of a wheel coming off. In fact a double purpose (1) to
make bicycling safer, and (2) politically correct to avoid
embarrassing those who can't read.

Think of it. All the bicycle activists would be slobbering all down
their shirt front to tell their adherents about them and in a couple
of years maybe even a federal regulation.

Certainly, if a helmet and a flashing light keep you safe then a
device that actually speaks to you every time you bend over must mean
that you will be safer than safe.

--
cheers,

John B.

  #28  
Old July 4th 16, 01:17 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default what is the blue/cyanic stuff sometimes found in bolt threads?

On Sunday, July 3, 2016 at 3:12:26 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/3/2016 5:10 PM, Mark J. wrote:
On 7/3/2016 12:20 PM, AMuzi wrote:
Loctite is an anaerobic adhesive. It crystallizes in the absence of
oxygen (i.e., after the threaded piece is tight). May be
degraded/released with heat later if desired.

see henkel.com


Maybe you can clarify something that's confused me on the blue loctite
issue:

I've applied loctite often enough, it "goes on" in liquid form, and then
I assemble the piece, and the loctite is hidden. I don't think I've
ever disassembled one of those pieces, so I don't know what it looks
like after it sets. [I tend to think of loctite as a means of last
resort.]

However:

On, say, new disk brake rotor bolts or (new) square-taper crank bolts, I
see the blue stuff manufacturers have applied. It's not liquid and
appears to be a somewhat soft, perhaps granulated solid. Maybe I only
see the granulation when I later remove the bolt and the blue stuff
appears to have crumbled.

Question: Is the liquid blue loctite and the soft solid I'm seeing on
OEM parts the same stuff?


I don't think so. There are many different varieties of thread locking
compounds. As Andrew said, the most common liquid stuff is an anaerobic
compound, one specifically designed to harden in the absence of air.


It may be a more engineered version of the stuff you get in a tube. AFAIK, both are anaerobic acrylate adhesives, but the dry product has the anaerobic adhesive encapsulated, and the itty-bitty capsules break when you tighten down the bolt. http://nylok.com/products/precote-80 Pretty nifty. I suspected it was just a thread filler (like hot-dipped teflon tape), but I guess it is a locker.

-- Jay Beattie
 




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