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#21
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what is the blue/cyanic stuff sometimes found in bolt threads?
Per Jeff Liebermann:
Today, people actually clean their bicycles, which I believe is responsible for the plague of thread locking compounds. Lost are the benefits of rust, dirt, and grease to deal with loose hardware. On a clean bicycle, things are more likely to fall off than on a rusted or dirty bicycle. That seems to support my own (tongue-in-cheek until now) belief that a layer of mud and other crud acts as a protective layer.... https://picasaweb.google.com/1081497...00035650205282 -- Pete Cresswell |
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#22
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what is the blue/cyanic stuff sometimes found in bolt threads?
On 7/3/2016 5:14 AM, Tosspot wrote:
At this point I'd like to interject a new discovery on my part, which you probably all knew about anyway; http://na.henkel-adhesives.com/loctite-sticks-6180.htm Which are apparently the dogs wobblers, being the real deal, without all the messy fluids. Nice! When I find one of those for sale, it will go in my touring bike's bag. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#23
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what is the blue/cyanic stuff sometimes found in bolt threads?
On Sun, 3 Jul 2016 11:14:37 +0200, Tosspot
wrote: At this point I'd like to interject a new discovery on my part, which you probably all knew about anyway; http://na.henkel-adhesives.com/loctite-sticks-6180.htm Which are apparently the dogs wobblers, being the real deal, without all the messy fluids. What's a "dog wobbler"? Loose hardware? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wobbler_disease How to apply: http://na.henkel-adhesives.com/industrial/loctite-sticks-how-to-apply-6227.htm Available as an assortment for about $65 per 5 sticks. Ouch. Typical price per stick is $15 to $20. Ouch again: http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/381434564269 http://na.henkel-adhesives.com/product-search-1554.htm?nodeid=8797884940289 http://www.sears.com/search=loctite%2038725%20loctite%20thread%20treatm ent%20sticks%20kit I've looked at those sticks at the local auto parts store. Then I looked at the price and bought the much cheaper $5/bottle liquid flavor. Hint: Back in the stone age, before Loctite, my father and I were using model airplane dope and nail polish (both mostly nitrocellulose) as thread lock on his sewing machines and attachments. Vibration on industrial sewing machines can be fairly severe and thread lock is a necessity. One advantage of these over cyanoacrylate based thread locking compounds is that they don't take 24 hrs to set. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#24
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what is the blue/cyanic stuff sometimes found in bolt threads?
On 7/2/2016 12:27 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
" writes: Sold by every auto parts store. And apparently the big hardware stores too. Blue means its removable, you can unscrew the bolt with a wrench but the bolt will not unscrew by itself when in use. Red Loctite is permanent and you cannot remove the bolt. Most folks think Loctite is good in most situations. Most folks don't want to clean it off. Aha! So it still works even when it fills the thread gap because it is softer... It must be strong in some sense tho because often even for a long screw only three or four laps have it! Do you use it when you cannot have a stop nut on the other side? Or is it still beneficial? Nope. Loctite is an anaerobic adhesive. It crystallizes in the absence of oxygen (i.e., after the threaded piece is tight). May be degraded/released with heat later if desired. see henkel.com Holy crap they even have a Svensk page! Read on: http://www.henkel.se/ -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#25
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what is the blue/cyanic stuff sometimes found in bolt threads?
On 7/3/2016 12:20 PM, AMuzi wrote:
Loctite is an anaerobic adhesive. It crystallizes in the absence of oxygen (i.e., after the threaded piece is tight). May be degraded/released with heat later if desired. see henkel.com Maybe you can clarify something that's confused me on the blue loctite issue: I've applied loctite often enough, it "goes on" in liquid form, and then I assemble the piece, and the loctite is hidden. I don't think I've ever disassembled one of those pieces, so I don't know what it looks like after it sets. [I tend to think of loctite as a means of last resort.] However: On, say, new disk brake rotor bolts or (new) square-taper crank bolts, I see the blue stuff manufacturers have applied. It's not liquid and appears to be a somewhat soft, perhaps granulated solid. Maybe I only see the granulation when I later remove the bolt and the blue stuff appears to have crumbled. Question: Is the liquid blue loctite and the soft solid I'm seeing on OEM parts the same stuff? Mark J. |
#26
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what is the blue/cyanic stuff sometimes found in bolt threads?
On 7/3/2016 5:10 PM, Mark J. wrote:
On 7/3/2016 12:20 PM, AMuzi wrote: Loctite is an anaerobic adhesive. It crystallizes in the absence of oxygen (i.e., after the threaded piece is tight). May be degraded/released with heat later if desired. see henkel.com Maybe you can clarify something that's confused me on the blue loctite issue: I've applied loctite often enough, it "goes on" in liquid form, and then I assemble the piece, and the loctite is hidden. I don't think I've ever disassembled one of those pieces, so I don't know what it looks like after it sets. [I tend to think of loctite as a means of last resort.] However: On, say, new disk brake rotor bolts or (new) square-taper crank bolts, I see the blue stuff manufacturers have applied. It's not liquid and appears to be a somewhat soft, perhaps granulated solid. Maybe I only see the granulation when I later remove the bolt and the blue stuff appears to have crumbled. Question: Is the liquid blue loctite and the soft solid I'm seeing on OEM parts the same stuff? I don't think so. There are many different varieties of thread locking compounds. As Andrew said, the most common liquid stuff is an anaerobic compound, one specifically designed to harden in the absence of air. I've removed lots of screws that were retained with blue loctite. The stuff doesn't stay blue. IIRC, it ends up some vaguely tan color. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#27
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what is the blue/cyanic stuff sometimes found in bolt threads?
On Sat, 02 Jul 2016 21:17:57 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 10:41:25 +0700, John B. wrote: "Back in the day", bicycles were usually assembled without using any form of thread locking device/material and very seldom did anything fall off. Today it seems that everything has loktite on it. Back when I was a terror on 2 wheels (early 1960's), I would ride around on my bicycle with most everything almost ready to fall off. Just about everything on my various bicycles was loose. What saved the bicycle from self disassembly was rust, dirt, and grease. The combination of dirt and grease on bolts, threads, studs, etc acted much like thread locking compounds, except it was applied on the outside. It took about the same amount of time for the rust, dirt, and grease to form as it did for the bolts to work themselves loose. Since I never bothered to clean the bicycle, the arrangement worked quite well, and little hardware was lost. Banging on the handle bars, tolerating rattles, and tying down hardware with kite string was deemed normal. Today, people actually clean their bicycles, which I believe is responsible for the plague of thread locking compounds. Lost are the benefits of rust, dirt, and grease to deal with loose hardware. On a clean bicycle, things are more likely to fall off than on a rusted or dirty bicycle. This tends to attract product liability litigation, which might suggest that the manufacturer was selling a device that might suddenly self-disassemble causing grievous injuries worthy of astronomical awards. Worse, the common availability of thread locking solutions might suggest that the manufacturer knew about the problem, ignored the obvious solutions, and is therefore negligent. Since pre-coating the fasteners with rust, dirt, and grease is not an acceptable solution, thread lock is used. Whether it is needed or does anything useful is not part of the question. The front forks also have a little sign on them saying "failure to tighten this nut may cause the wheel to fall off". That's the warning label problem. Part of the judgment of a product liability suit is usually a recommendation by the court that a warning label be affixed to the faulty device to inform users of the hazard. Such warnings allegedly convert the plaintiff from an grievously injured victim of a hazardous product, to a complete idiot unable to read and follow instructions. http://forums.mtbr.com/passion/when-mountain-bike-warning-labels-go-too-far-940742.html I assume from news reports that the U.S. courts are there to protect the mentally deficient, or those completely ga-ga. If I remember, there is some sort of ruling that when you buy something that you have a right to expect it to do whatever it was sold to do. But equally, when a company sells a 3 or 4 thousand dollar bicycle shouldn't they have the right to assume, for instance, that the purchaser is mentally competent enough to put the wheels on? And what about the people that can't read - http://www.statisticbrain.com/number...who-cant-read/ 32 million adults in the U.S. can't read. That's 14 percent of the population. 21 percent of adults in the U.S. read below a 5th grade level, and 19 percent of high school graduates can't read. I don't have a date for the study but the article was dated December, 2014 and refers to "According to a study conducted in late April by the U.S. Department of Education and the National Institute of Literacy" which that says was conducted "last year". Perhaps there is a place for an electronics guy that could design a tiny little device that would include a proximity sensor and a tiny speaker that, when anyone came near, would say, "If you don't tighten the nut the wheel may come off". Probably get them knocked out in Shanghai for what, maybe $0.24 each, shipping is pretty cheap so $0.99 cents to the bike company in lots of, say 1,000. In a year or so you could hire a Lobbyist and get, at least a state, regulation that these are a necessity to avoid the possibility of a wheel coming off. In fact a double purpose (1) to make bicycling safer, and (2) politically correct to avoid embarrassing those who can't read. Think of it. All the bicycle activists would be slobbering all down their shirt front to tell their adherents about them and in a couple of years maybe even a federal regulation. Certainly, if a helmet and a flashing light keep you safe then a device that actually speaks to you every time you bend over must mean that you will be safer than safe. -- cheers, John B. |
#28
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what is the blue/cyanic stuff sometimes found in bolt threads?
On Sunday, July 3, 2016 at 3:12:26 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/3/2016 5:10 PM, Mark J. wrote: On 7/3/2016 12:20 PM, AMuzi wrote: Loctite is an anaerobic adhesive. It crystallizes in the absence of oxygen (i.e., after the threaded piece is tight). May be degraded/released with heat later if desired. see henkel.com Maybe you can clarify something that's confused me on the blue loctite issue: I've applied loctite often enough, it "goes on" in liquid form, and then I assemble the piece, and the loctite is hidden. I don't think I've ever disassembled one of those pieces, so I don't know what it looks like after it sets. [I tend to think of loctite as a means of last resort.] However: On, say, new disk brake rotor bolts or (new) square-taper crank bolts, I see the blue stuff manufacturers have applied. It's not liquid and appears to be a somewhat soft, perhaps granulated solid. Maybe I only see the granulation when I later remove the bolt and the blue stuff appears to have crumbled. Question: Is the liquid blue loctite and the soft solid I'm seeing on OEM parts the same stuff? I don't think so. There are many different varieties of thread locking compounds. As Andrew said, the most common liquid stuff is an anaerobic compound, one specifically designed to harden in the absence of air. It may be a more engineered version of the stuff you get in a tube. AFAIK, both are anaerobic acrylate adhesives, but the dry product has the anaerobic adhesive encapsulated, and the itty-bitty capsules break when you tighten down the bolt. http://nylok.com/products/precote-80 Pretty nifty. I suspected it was just a thread filler (like hot-dipped teflon tape), but I guess it is a locker. -- Jay Beattie |
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