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#31
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Do EVO pads fit in KoolStop holders?
On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 07:18:09 -0700, Joerg
wrote: On 2018-04-27 18:35, jbeattie wrote: On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 4:18:58 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2018-04-27 15:11, jbeattie wrote: On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 2:10:07 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2018-04-27 10:57, jbeattie wrote: [...] Decades of racing and riding on single and dual pivot rim brakes in the rain and never once pussyfooted except to avoid traction loss. I've never crashed in the rain because of brake failure (and I've crashed many times in the rain), although I had one close-call involving some bad cantis on STI levers, but then again, I had an even scarier incident with mis-adjusted cable discs. My crashes were all due to traction loss. One of my really nasty crashes happened when the front brake cable snapped. It was almost new. That just does not happen with hydraulic disc brakes. I had the choice of wiping out with major road rash or chancing it into the vegetation. In either case I'd have been toast if there had been oncoming traffic. A catastrophic failure can happen in any system. Breaking a new cable is a catastrophic failure. It shouldn't happen (it's never happened to me in maybe 300K miles of riding). I had it happen half a dozen times. My sister had it happen at least twice. Two of those incidences caused accidents, a 3rd almost did (blowing through a non 4-way downhill stop sign but nobody came). These were all good quality cables bought at reputable bike shops, not department store merchandise. A half a dozen times? And your sister, at least twice? It seems to me that you need to find a four leaf clover, or carry a St Christopher medal on your bike to protect you. Or maybe a verse from the Koran? Something anyway, as you obviously are suffering from incredible bad luck. In contrast to your experiences, I rode my first bicycle in about 1943 and have ridden bicycles and motorcycles and airplanes, all of which depended on cables to control them, and have never experienced a broken cable. With all your cable problems I'd think that a "dead weight" cable tester would be to your advantage. Simple to build and simple to operate it would ensure that your cables met the necessary strength requirements. ... You could get the same failure with defective hydraulic tube or joint, piston, pad holder, mounting bolt, etc. You could get a leak ... Those are slow, you'd feel it coming. Things don't just snap. ... -- you could even blow through a pad set on a single ride. That must be a long hard competition ride. ... A giant earthquake could wipe out your hydraulic calipers! Yes, I suppose that could happen. Or a direct meteorite hit into the left lever. [...] ... I switch between disc and direct mount caliper brakes on the weekends and find that braking is great on both. Thanks for the hint about the Koolstop pads. They just came. Ebay tracking is a nice "mail is here" alert. It came early today. They fit like a glove. I wonder why they now flare the trailing edge inwards towards the rim. It would make the pad want to skew. Maybe I'll grind that off. No. It's meant to wipe the rim before the pad fully engages. It is exactly what you want for dirt and wet weather performance. Let's see. I could almost bet that pointy tip will be worn away after a few hundred miles. Depends on the 100 miles, but yes, it's not going to last forever. My disc pads last about one-quarter the time of my rim brake pads. Time to upgrade the disc brakes? Mine last about the same and that is comparing a road environment for the rim pads to 90% trail riding on the MTB. Dusty, mucky, wet and gravely trail riding. Sometimes when a stench develops I have to pry "brake mousse" out of the front caliper. That happens after the weeds shot up and have to I ride through them for miles. Star thistle is particularly nasty. It tangles in the rotor spider, then gets chopped and pureed at the caliper. Doesn't cause performance issues but it can stink. What wears really fast are organic pads. The kind bike shops sell you for north of $15/pair. I like ceramic-based pads. You can't use cheap rotors with those though, they'd eat them up. I use Shimano RT66 rotors. They cost me $22 each, 8-inchers. -- Cheers, John B. |
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#32
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Do EVO pads fit in KoolStop holders?
On 4/28/2018 5:47 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 7:17:42 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2018-04-27 18:35, jbeattie wrote: A catastrophic failure can happen in any system. Breaking a new cable is a catastrophic failure. It shouldn't happen (it's never happened to me in maybe 300K miles of riding). I had it happen half a dozen times. My sister had it happen at least twice. Two of those incidences caused accidents, a 3rd almost did (blowing through a non 4-way downhill stop sign but nobody came). These were all good quality cables bought at reputable bike shops, not department store merchandise. Something is horribly wrong. I've never snapped a new brake cable or even broken an old one. Shift cable, yes -- STI levers with the hard bends can be rough on those little cables. I do remember breaking a front brake cable once. That's in 40+ years of avid adult cycling. Now I replace them every five years or so. What wears really fast are organic pads. The kind bike shops sell you for north of $15/pair. I like ceramic-based pads. You can't use cheap rotors with those though, they'd eat them up. I use Shimano RT66 rotors. They cost me $22 each, 8-inchers. Organic are terrible, but even the metalic pads don't last that long -- not nearly as long as rim brake pads. Again, I think it's wise to carry one spare set of pads on every disc brake bike. This advice came from a very experienced bike tourist who stayed with us, and who had lost all his brakes suddenly on one hilly tour because of pad wear. SO TECH QUESTION: what would cause periodic dragging -- and a pinging-type drag, almost like the return springs are hitting the rotor. Then it goes away, and braking is normal -- so I know the pads are not worn out and the springs are not hitting the rotor (but I will check). Piston drag? The bike is not that old, but I could bleed it. The calipers are properly centered. Hey, I think we just discovered another benefit of disc brakes! We've been short on really tricky bike tech problems to solve, but discs can provide lots of new ones for us! They might even save this discussion group! -- - Frank Krygowski |
#33
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Do EVO pads fit in KoolStop holders?
On 2018-04-28 14:47, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 7:17:42 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2018-04-27 18:35, jbeattie wrote: On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 4:18:58 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2018-04-27 15:11, jbeattie wrote: On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 2:10:07 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2018-04-27 10:57, jbeattie wrote: [...] Decades of racing and riding on single and dual pivot rim brakes in the rain and never once pussyfooted except to avoid traction loss. I've never crashed in the rain because of brake failure (and I've crashed many times in the rain), although I had one close-call involving some bad cantis on STI levers, but then again, I had an even scarier incident with mis-adjusted cable discs. My crashes were all due to traction loss. One of my really nasty crashes happened when the front brake cable snapped. It was almost new. That just does not happen with hydraulic disc brakes. I had the choice of wiping out with major road rash or chancing it into the vegetation. In either case I'd have been toast if there had been oncoming traffic. A catastrophic failure can happen in any system. Breaking a new cable is a catastrophic failure. It shouldn't happen (it's never happened to me in maybe 300K miles of riding). I had it happen half a dozen times. My sister had it happen at least twice. Two of those incidences caused accidents, a 3rd almost did (blowing through a non 4-way downhill stop sign but nobody came). These were all good quality cables bought at reputable bike shops, not department store merchandise. Something is horribly wrong. I've never snapped a new brake cable or even broken an old one. Shift cable, yes -- STI levers with the hard bends can be rough on those little cables. I and my sister were by far not the only ones over there (Germany) that happened to. OTOH I can remember ever breaking a shifter cable. That wouldn't be an emergency. I always have a screw driver in my tool kit so could set it into a suitable position. [...] ... I switch between disc and direct mount caliper brakes on the weekends and find that braking is great on both. Thanks for the hint about the Koolstop pads. They just came. Ebay tracking is a nice "mail is here" alert. It came early today. They fit like a glove. I wonder why they now flare the trailing edge inwards towards the rim. It would make the pad want to skew. Maybe I'll grind that off. No. It's meant to wipe the rim before the pad fully engages. It is exactly what you want for dirt and wet weather performance. Let's see. I could almost bet that pointy tip will be worn away after a few hundred miles. Depends on the 100 miles, but yes, it's not going to last forever. My disc pads last about one-quarter the time of my rim brake pads. Time to upgrade the disc brakes? Mine last about the same and that is comparing a road environment for the rim pads to 90% trail riding on the MTB. Dusty, mucky, wet and gravely trail riding. Sometimes when a stench develops I have to pry "brake mousse" out of the front caliper. That happens after the weeds shot up and have to I ride through them for miles. Star thistle is particularly nasty. It tangles in the rotor spider, then gets chopped and pureed at the caliper. Doesn't cause performance issues but it can stink. What wears really fast are organic pads. The kind bike shops sell you for north of $15/pair. I like ceramic-based pads. You can't use cheap rotors with those though, they'd eat them up. I use Shimano RT66 rotors. They cost me $22 each, 8-inchers. Organic are terrible, but even the metalic pads don't last that long -- not nearly as long as rim brake pads. I run 160mm rotors on the commuter and 140/160mm rotors on every thing else (the hydraulic bikes). I buy name-brand and not Chinese no-name replacements. This is the puzzler, the Chinese ones last the longest and (so far) had the best braking performance for me. Not really no-name, they are from the Hangzhou-Novich factory and arrived in blister packs with their logo on them. They can't always be found on the web though so when I find them I buy in bulk because I don't get to travel to China. My experience with MTB tires is similar. The really low cost brands from Thailand hold up the best, provide decent traction and most of all have sturdier side-walls than most "name brand" stuff. I have a Norco Search gravel bike with hydraulics that my son was riding today, and they get drag periodically and can be very annoying. SO TECH QUESTION: what would cause periodic dragging -- and a pinging-type drag, almost like the return springs are hitting the rotor. Return springs? There are usually only the little spreader clips and they can't or should never hit the rotor. If they did that could mean trouble. Then it goes away, and braking is normal -- so I know the pads are not worn out and the springs are not hitting the rotor (but I will check). Piston drag? The bike is not that old, but I could bleed it. The calipers are properly centered. That is one of the occasional nuisances. My disc brakes can go tsssing ... tsssing for tens of miles. Sometimes dirt or vegetation "mousse" gets in there. A toothpick fixes that but the drag is so miniscule and the noise so faint that I don't bother during a ride. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#34
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Do EVO pads fit in KoolStop holders?
On 2018-04-28 18:34, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 07:18:09 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2018-04-27 18:35, jbeattie wrote: On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 4:18:58 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2018-04-27 15:11, jbeattie wrote: On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 2:10:07 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2018-04-27 10:57, jbeattie wrote: [...] Decades of racing and riding on single and dual pivot rim brakes in the rain and never once pussyfooted except to avoid traction loss. I've never crashed in the rain because of brake failure (and I've crashed many times in the rain), although I had one close-call involving some bad cantis on STI levers, but then again, I had an even scarier incident with mis-adjusted cable discs. My crashes were all due to traction loss. One of my really nasty crashes happened when the front brake cable snapped. It was almost new. That just does not happen with hydraulic disc brakes. I had the choice of wiping out with major road rash or chancing it into the vegetation. In either case I'd have been toast if there had been oncoming traffic. A catastrophic failure can happen in any system. Breaking a new cable is a catastrophic failure. It shouldn't happen (it's never happened to me in maybe 300K miles of riding). I had it happen half a dozen times. My sister had it happen at least twice. Two of those incidences caused accidents, a 3rd almost did (blowing through a non 4-way downhill stop sign but nobody came). These were all good quality cables bought at reputable bike shops, not department store merchandise. A half a dozen times? And your sister, at least twice? It seems to me that you need to find a four leaf clover, or carry a St Christopher medal on your bike to protect you. Or maybe a verse from the Koran? Something anyway, as you obviously are suffering from incredible bad luck. In contrast to your experiences, I rode my first bicycle in about 1943 and have ridden bicycles and motorcycles and airplanes, all of which depended on cables to control them, and have never experienced a broken cable. For years and years we each logged 3000-6000 miles per year. Some stuff on bikes fails a lot, other stuff doesn't. IME brake cables are among the less reliable parts but not nearly as unreliable as bottom bracket bearings. With all your cable problems I'd think that a "dead weight" cable tester would be to your advantage. Simple to build and simple to operate it would ensure that your cables met the necessary strength requirements. It won't help. At least mine didn't fail during emergency hard-pul situations. I have learned early on not to lock up my brakes, whether on bikes or in cars, unless it is advantageous and even then you don't need much force. They just ... failed, out of the blue. For example, when I cam home from school I approached the last traffic light 1/2mi from our house. It was red, so I applied front and read brake. Front cable snapped and the bumper of a BMW helped me to come to a stop. The driver got out but when he saw the cable jacket flopping around in the air he said "Oh, yes, that happens", got back in and drove off. I guess he was a cyclist and it seemed like he also had that happen. [...] -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#35
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Do EVO pads fit in KoolStop holders?
On 2018-04-28 16:56, Mark J. wrote:
On 4/27/2018 3:11 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 2:10:07 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2018-04-27 10:57, jbeattie wrote: [...] ... I switch between disc and direct mount caliper brakes on the weekends and find that braking is great on both. Thanks for the hint about the Koolstop pads. They just came. Ebay tracking is a nice "mail is here" alert. It came early today. They fit like a glove. I wonder why they now flare the trailing edge inwards towards the rim. It would make the pad want to skew. Maybe I'll grind that off. No. It's meant to wipe the rim before the pad fully engages. It is exactly what you want for dirt and wet weather performance. -- Jay Beattie. That pointy tip also makes it easy to toe in the pads an appropriate amount to reduce squeal/judder. Once the pads are installed, if that "tip" wears off, it's already served one useful purpose. I don't toe in my pads anymore because that causes slightly uneven wear, meaning less miles/pair. To heck with a little squeal. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#36
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Do EVO pads fit in KoolStop holders?
On Monday, April 30, 2018 at 7:22:35 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-28 18:34, John B. wrote: On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 07:18:09 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2018-04-27 18:35, jbeattie wrote: On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 4:18:58 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2018-04-27 15:11, jbeattie wrote: On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 2:10:07 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2018-04-27 10:57, jbeattie wrote: [...] Decades of racing and riding on single and dual pivot rim brakes in the rain and never once pussyfooted except to avoid traction loss. I've never crashed in the rain because of brake failure (and I've crashed many times in the rain), although I had one close-call involving some bad cantis on STI levers, but then again, I had an even scarier incident with mis-adjusted cable discs. My crashes were all due to traction loss. One of my really nasty crashes happened when the front brake cable snapped. It was almost new. That just does not happen with hydraulic disc brakes. I had the choice of wiping out with major road rash or chancing it into the vegetation. In either case I'd have been toast if there had been oncoming traffic. A catastrophic failure can happen in any system. Breaking a new cable is a catastrophic failure. It shouldn't happen (it's never happened to me in maybe 300K miles of riding). I had it happen half a dozen times. My sister had it happen at least twice. Two of those incidences caused accidents, a 3rd almost did (blowing through a non 4-way downhill stop sign but nobody came). These were all good quality cables bought at reputable bike shops, not department store merchandise. A half a dozen times? And your sister, at least twice? It seems to me that you need to find a four leaf clover, or carry a St Christopher medal on your bike to protect you. Or maybe a verse from the Koran? Something anyway, as you obviously are suffering from incredible bad luck. In contrast to your experiences, I rode my first bicycle in about 1943 and have ridden bicycles and motorcycles and airplanes, all of which depended on cables to control them, and have never experienced a broken cable. For years and years we each logged 3000-6000 miles per year. Some stuff on bikes fails a lot, other stuff doesn't. IME brake cables are among the less reliable parts but not nearly as unreliable as bottom bracket bearings. With all your cable problems I'd think that a "dead weight" cable tester would be to your advantage. Simple to build and simple to operate it would ensure that your cables met the necessary strength requirements. It won't help. At least mine didn't fail during emergency hard-pul situations. I have learned early on not to lock up my brakes, whether on bikes or in cars, unless it is advantageous and even then you don't need much force. They just ... failed, out of the blue. For example, when I cam home from school I approached the last traffic light 1/2mi from our house. It was red, so I applied front and read brake. Front cable snapped and the bumper of a BMW helped me to come to a stop. The driver got out but when he saw the cable jacket flopping around in the air he said "Oh, yes, that happens", got back in and drove off. I guess he was a cyclist and it seemed like he also had that happen. Where did your cables snap? Did the heads pull off? Did you change the housing after the failures? -- Jay Beattie. |
#37
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Do EVO pads fit in KoolStop holders?
On 2018-04-30 08:19, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, April 30, 2018 at 7:22:35 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2018-04-28 18:34, John B. wrote: [...] With all your cable problems I'd think that a "dead weight" cable tester would be to your advantage. Simple to build and simple to operate it would ensure that your cables met the necessary strength requirements. It won't help. At least mine didn't fail during emergency hard-pul situations. I have learned early on not to lock up my brakes, whether on bikes or in cars, unless it is advantageous and even then you don't need much force. They just ... failed, out of the blue. For example, when I cam home from school I approached the last traffic light 1/2mi from our house. It was red, so I applied front and read brake. Front cable snapped and the bumper of a BMW helped me to come to a stop. The driver got out but when he saw the cable jacket flopping around in the air he said "Oh, yes, that happens", got back in and drove off. I guess he was a cyclist and it seemed like he also had that happen. Where did your cables snap? Did the heads pull off? Yes, in all cases. ... Did you change the housing after the failures? No, though I did smooth the channels a little with fine-grit sandpaper and polishing paste. Couldn't help much though because the heads simply pulled out of the cables. Besides, why do we as end users a.k.a. consumers have to correct design mistakes on bicycles so often? -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#38
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Do EVO pads fit in KoolStop holders?
On Monday, April 30, 2018 at 9:24:31 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-30 08:19, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, April 30, 2018 at 7:22:35 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2018-04-28 18:34, John B. wrote: [...] With all your cable problems I'd think that a "dead weight" cable tester would be to your advantage. Simple to build and simple to operate it would ensure that your cables met the necessary strength requirements. It won't help. At least mine didn't fail during emergency hard-pul situations. I have learned early on not to lock up my brakes, whether on bikes or in cars, unless it is advantageous and even then you don't need much force. They just ... failed, out of the blue. For example, when I cam home from school I approached the last traffic light 1/2mi from our house. It was red, so I applied front and read brake. Front cable snapped and the bumper of a BMW helped me to come to a stop. The driver got out but when he saw the cable jacket flopping around in the air he said "Oh, yes, that happens", got back in and drove off. I guess he was a cyclist and it seemed like he also had that happen. Where did your cables snap? Did the heads pull off? Yes, in all cases. ... Did you change the housing after the failures? No, though I did smooth the channels a little with fine-grit sandpaper and polishing paste. Couldn't help much though because the heads simply pulled out of the cables. Besides, why do we as end users a.k.a. consumers have to correct design mistakes on bicycles so often? Most cable failures occur over time and involve breaking of individual strands -- which should be noticed with routine maintenance. There are housing, lever, adjuster and ferrule designs/installations that can hasten cable failure, but a catastrophic failure probably means a defective cable. IIRC, Shimano did recall some cables 10+ years ago because of ends popping off. And most of the "design" problems with other brake parts usually result in symptoms long before the failure, like brakes that are stiff, sticky, etc. These are usually symptoms of a cheap bike, too. More curious tech problems: I currently have an Avid BB7 rear cable disc on my commuter that is in housing all the way from the lever to the caliper. I expect drag, and the return springs on the Avid brakes are not great -- better than the first generation BB7, but still not great. So, I expect cable drag from the housing and even some pad drag caused by the weak return spring. What I didn't expect is that the brakes would self-tighten. It's the oddest thing. The brakes just tighten up, and the torque arm is fully retracted -- so its not a stuck cable. In some instances, I think it is because the rear axle has smooth faces, and the wheel can get cocked under load (and with a tight QR), but I've even had the brake drag after dropping the wheel to make sure it is straight. It's like I have a haunted rear brake caliper. -- Jay Beattie. |
#39
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Do EVO pads fit in KoolStop holders?
On 2018-04-30 13:02, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, April 30, 2018 at 9:24:31 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2018-04-30 08:19, jbeattie wrote: [...] ... Did you change the housing after the failures? No, though I did smooth the channels a little with fine-grit sandpaper and polishing paste. Couldn't help much though because the heads simply pulled out of the cables. Besides, why do we as end users a.k.a. consumers have to correct design mistakes on bicycles so often? Most cable failures occur over time and involve breaking of individual strands -- which should be noticed with routine maintenance. There are housing, lever, adjuster and ferrule designs/installations that can hasten cable failure, but a catastrophic failure probably means a defective cable. IIRC, Shimano did recall some cables 10+ years ago because of ends popping off. And most of the "design" problems with other brake parts usually result in symptoms long before the failure, like brakes that are stiff, sticky, etc. These are usually symptoms of a cheap bike, too. More curious tech problems: I currently have an Avid BB7 rear cable disc on my commuter that is in housing all the way from the lever to the caliper. I expect drag, and the return springs on the Avid brakes are not great -- better than the first generation BB7, but still not great. So, I expect cable drag from the housing and even some pad drag caused by the weak return spring. What I occasionally do is let the bike rear up against a wall, propping it all up so it won't slide back down. Then I tie a cotton chunk around the cable where it comes out the jacket at the rear caliper and fasten the lever slightly pulled. Now I drip some oil on at the lever and let that run down the cable. A few drops every hour or so, whenever I happen to be in the garage for other reasons. Eventually the cotton ball gets oily and then I stop and clean it up. Similar with the front brake but then I need to lay the bike. I like to keep things nicely lubed. What I didn't expect is that the brakes would self-tighten. It's the oddest thing. The brakes just tighten up, and the torque arm is fully retracted -- so its not a stuck cable. In some instances, I think it is because the rear axle has smooth faces, and the wheel can get cocked under load (and with a tight QR), but I've even had the brake drag after dropping the wheel to make sure it is straight. It's like I have a haunted rear brake caliper. Car drum brake pads had that since a long time on some of the better models. Decades. As the pads wore, a little "sticky cog" would be slightly turned and that made the pads not retract as far as when they were new. That saved a lot of frequent maintenance. I always wondered when the bike industry would learn this but maybe the 100-year learning curve isn't up yet :-) At least your bike seems to have "inadvertent self-adjust". One thing I never liked about many mechanical disc brakes is that they only have a piston on one side. As the pads wear the rotor gets pulled sideways more and more. They could have done a better design job. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#40
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Do EVO pads fit in KoolStop holders?
On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 07:25:22 -0700, Joerg
wrote: On 2018-04-28 16:56, Mark J. wrote: On 4/27/2018 3:11 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 2:10:07 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2018-04-27 10:57, jbeattie wrote: [...] ... I switch between disc and direct mount caliper brakes on the weekends and find that braking is great on both. Thanks for the hint about the Koolstop pads. They just came. Ebay tracking is a nice "mail is here" alert. It came early today. They fit like a glove. I wonder why they now flare the trailing edge inwards towards the rim. It would make the pad want to skew. Maybe I'll grind that off. No. It's meant to wipe the rim before the pad fully engages. It is exactly what you want for dirt and wet weather performance. -- Jay Beattie. That pointy tip also makes it easy to toe in the pads an appropriate amount to reduce squeal/judder. Once the pads are installed, if that "tip" wears off, it's already served one useful purpose. I don't toe in my pads anymore because that causes slightly uneven wear, meaning less miles/pair. To heck with a little squeal. I've always considered brake squeal a benefit when riding on a multi user venue as people seem to react favorable to a loud shriek while ignoring the faint "ding,ding, ding of the common bicycle bell. -- Cheers, John B. |
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