#21
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visibility of DRL
On 4/4/2019 6:01 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-04 12:15, jbeattie wrote: On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-03 18:56, David Scheidt wrote: From time to time, we have discussed the visibility of daytime running lights.Â* I commute on a bike with B&M Cyo, which I leave on all the time, because I can't tell the difference if it's on or off.Â* I found myself on google street view on my ride home last fall.Â* I got passed by the car, and then passed it, and got passed again.Â* So I, and the bike, are in a bunch of pictures, from the front and behind, over several blocks.Â* This one gives a good view of the headlight.Â* It's more visible than I'd have expected.Â* This was about an hour before dark, and overcast November day. https://goo.gl/maps/NQURJ9dps3p Not bad, for a StVZO light. However, I went virtually behind you in the street view and it seems you need a better rear light. And as a male toddler I wouldn't want to be seen sitting in that rose-colored baby seat :-) Really? https://tinyurl.com/y5v8pva3 He's more visible than the gray Hyundai ahead of him. I would have absolutely no problem seeing him if I were in a car or on a bike. Next to the red car behind it, less visible: https://goo.gl/maps/dNQBiRm4z672 Yes, because he chose a red jacket. If he chose yellow, he'd be better off with the red car as background. But then he might come upon a yellow car. Perhaps he should use green? The obvious solution is to carry a full wardrobe of various colors and quickly change jackets depending on traffic conditions. Much more seriously: "less visible" than some theoretical maximum is not necessarily a problem. A cyclist needs to be visible _enough_. And despite the currently fashionable fear mongering, that does not require any technology that wasn't common 20 years ago. Good grief, Joerg, how did you survive riding 20 years ago?? -- - Frank Krygowski |
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#22
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visibility of DRL
On 4/4/2019 4:35 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/4/2019 3:15 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-03 18:56, David Scheidt wrote: From time to time, we have discussed the visibility of daytime running lights. I commute on a bike with B&M Cyo, which I leave on all the time, because I can't tell the difference if it's on or off. I found myself on google street view on my ride home last fall. I got passed by the car, and then passed it, and got passed again. So I, and the bike, are in a bunch of pictures, from the front and behind, over several blocks. This one gives a good view of the headlight. It's more visible than I'd have expected. This was about an hour before dark, and overcast November day. https://goo.gl/maps/NQURJ9dps3p Not bad, for a StVZO light. However, I went virtually behind you in the street view and it seems you need a better rear light. And as a male toddler I wouldn't want to be seen sitting in that rose-colored baby seat :-) Really? https://tinyurl.com/y5v8pva3 He's more visible than the gray Hyundai ahead of him. I would have absolutely no problem seeing him if I were in a car or on a bike. For some "Danger! Danger!" people, it's not enough to be clearly visible. They're not satisfied unless they are absolutely the most noticeable people on the street, visible from a mile away. What's next? Several of these per bike, with lights fastened to the top? https://www.amazon.com/Safety-Flags-...=fsclp_pl_dp_2 Dream big! http://tesladownunder.com/WorldsBrightestBike.htm -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#23
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visibility of DRL
On 4/4/2019 6:14 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 2:35:52 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: For some "Danger! Danger!" people, it's not enough to be clearly visible. They're not satisfied unless they are absolutely the most noticeable people on the street, visible from a mile away. What's next? Several of these per bike, with lights fastened to the top? https://www.amazon.com/Safety-Flags-...=fsclp_pl_dp_2 The commuter scrum: https://bikeportland.org/2016/05/04/...o-essay-182506 Imagine if all those people had eye-popping, retina burning flashers and headlights. We vacationed (and rode) in Amsterdam late last year. Eye-popping headlights and taillights were completely absent. (That was true in their bike lanes and on streets with no bike lanes.) In fact, I was surprised to see a fair number of "stealth" bicyclists at night. (In some of the darker areas, seeing them required some attention. Especially when walking, one had to pay lots of attention to safely get across a bike lane.) -- - Frank Krygowski |
#24
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visibility of DRL
On 4/4/2019 5:14 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 2:35:52 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/4/2019 3:15 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-03 18:56, David Scheidt wrote: From time to time, we have discussed the visibility of daytime running lights. I commute on a bike with B&M Cyo, which I leave on all the time, because I can't tell the difference if it's on or off. I found myself on google street view on my ride home last fall. I got passed by the car, and then passed it, and got passed again. So I, and the bike, are in a bunch of pictures, from the front and behind, over several blocks. This one gives a good view of the headlight. It's more visible than I'd have expected. This was about an hour before dark, and overcast November day. https://goo.gl/maps/NQURJ9dps3p Not bad, for a StVZO light. However, I went virtually behind you in the street view and it seems you need a better rear light. And as a male toddler I wouldn't want to be seen sitting in that rose-colored baby seat :-) Really? https://tinyurl.com/y5v8pva3 He's more visible than the gray Hyundai ahead of him. I would have absolutely no problem seeing him if I were in a car or on a bike. For some "Danger! Danger!" people, it's not enough to be clearly visible. They're not satisfied unless they are absolutely the most noticeable people on the street, visible from a mile away. What's next? Several of these per bike, with lights fastened to the top? https://www.amazon.com/Safety-Flags-...=fsclp_pl_dp_2 The commuter scrum: https://bikeportland.org/2016/05/04/...o-essay-182506 Imagine if all those people had eye-popping, retina burning flashers and headlights. And why do you need mega-light DRLs anyway? The vaunted Odense study proved that a tiny, induction powered front light prevented bicycle accidents -- even one-bike accidents, which is pretty amazing. http://www.eltis.org/discover/case-s...odense-denmark https://www.reelight.com/collections...s/products/cph I'm fine with safety equipment that isn't annoying or unsafe. I'm not going to prescribe for others. Get your vest and flippy flag, clog the facility riding 8mph, but don't f****** blind me with your mega-light DRL! Consider this my very brief manifesto. Violators will be insulted with grammatically complex, late Victorian put-downs provided by Andre Jute. "tiny, induction powered front light prevented bicycle accidents" I resemble that remark. Haven't died in traffic for some 50 years of regular riding. My 6v tire drive dynamos & SA GH6 DynoHub are a real upgrade from French Wonder leg lights (even I have some minimal standard). -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#25
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visibility of DRL
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#26
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visibility of DRL
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#28
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visibility of DRL
On 4/4/2019 8:31 PM, AMuzi wrote:
"tiny, induction powered front light prevented bicycle accidents" I resemble that remark. Haven't died in traffic for some 50 years of regular riding. My 6v tire drive dynamos & SA GH6 DynoHub are a real upgrade from French Wonder leg lights (even I have some minimal standard). I just got back from an evening ride. On that bike, a B&M Eyc headlight is powered by an old Union rim driven dynamo (it used to be tire driven). I noticed once again that it lit up stop signs roughly a quarter mile away. If the light rays are bright enough to make it to the sign then bounce back to my eye, they will certainly be bright enough in the eye of a motorist who's that far away. Andrew, what bulb are you using in the Dynohub headlamp? I've wondered about the NL432 LED bulb from Reflectalite: http://www.reflectalite.com/LEDpage.html#anchor78877 See the section "STURMEY ARCHER VINTAGE DYNOHUBS" down the page a bit. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#29
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visibility of DRL
On Thu, 4 Apr 2019 20:32:48 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 4/4/2019 6:56 PM, wrote: On Thu, 4 Apr 2019 11:07:35 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/4/2019 10:09 AM, sms wrote: Studies show the benefit of DRLs on bicycles, but it doesn't make any difference to those that don't believe in scientific studies. The study that's most often cited by Daytime Running Light fans did, indeed, purport to show that the lights caused fewer crashes. The assumption, of course, is that because the cyclists were more visible, cars and pedestrians avoided them more often. But that study was funded by the company that manufactured the lights and gave them away to the subjects of the study. It would be hard to dream up a more biased way of conducting a study. And indeed, the study's data tables showed that those using the lights suffered far fewer _solo_ crashes. Those are crashes where the cyclist simply falls on his own, perhaps running into a curb, losing balance when starting out, slipping on wet leaves, etc. It's proof of bias built into the study. But to a person like "sms" (AKA Stephen M. Scharf) those fine points don't matter. Any study that confirms his prejudices is just fine, no matter how badly it's done. And his main prejudice is that bicycling is terribly dangerous! SO terribly dangerous that one must always use lights front and back that blind others, and one must never ride without a funny plastic hat, and cities must build cattle chutes to hind cyclists behind parked cars, and you really ought to have a flippy flag sticking out sideways from your bike, and you're foolish if you ride without a loud electric horn on your bike... Given that bicycles, in all states I believe, are deemed to be vehicles that have a legal right to use the public roads and highways why shouldn't they be equipped as other vehicles are? After all, if vehicle "A" must be equipped with a horn, stop lights, turn lights, etc, why shouldn't vehicle "B" be equally as well equipped? One simple reason is that the laws don't require the same equipment on a bike as on a car. By law, bicycles don't need two working headlights, two working taillights, brake lights, windshields, wipers, turn signals, seat belts, air bags, and much more. Yes, I am aware of that but given that the bicycles seem to be demanding special considerations for themselves, one assumes because it is so dangerous to ride a bicycle on the public roads and highways, that they must have special paths, why should they not comply to the safety equipment demanded for other vehicles. It is to make themselves safer but they seem to want to avoid this on the one hand and demand their own safe paths on the other. Or are bicycles somehow God's chosen people and have rights that are denied to the other users of the highway. Perhaps some might advocate changing the laws to require all that stuff and more on bikes. But based on my (admittedly limited) experience getting bike laws changed, I know there would be extensive committee discussions on the desirability and practicality of such changes. And you can be sure the bicycle industry would put up strong arguments against such changes. And they would be very reasonable arguments. If you really want to get into specifics, we can discuss. As a sort of warm up, I'll note that the equipment requirements for tractor-trailer rigs are different than those for private cars. Sure, because they are longer, wider and higher than many other users. But is that a reason for the tiny insignificant bicycle to be without safety features whatsoever? -- cheers, John B. |
#30
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visibility of DRL
On Thu, 04 Apr 2019 19:33:22 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/4/2019 5:56 PM, wrote: On Thu, 4 Apr 2019 11:07:35 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/4/2019 10:09 AM, sms wrote: Studies show the benefit of DRLs on bicycles, but it doesn't make any difference to those that don't believe in scientific studies. The study that's most often cited by Daytime Running Light fans did, indeed, purport to show that the lights caused fewer crashes. The assumption, of course, is that because the cyclists were more visible, cars and pedestrians avoided them more often. But that study was funded by the company that manufactured the lights and gave them away to the subjects of the study. It would be hard to dream up a more biased way of conducting a study. And indeed, the study's data tables showed that those using the lights suffered far fewer _solo_ crashes. Those are crashes where the cyclist simply falls on his own, perhaps running into a curb, losing balance when starting out, slipping on wet leaves, etc. It's proof of bias built into the study. But to a person like "sms" (AKA Stephen M. Scharf) those fine points don't matter. Any study that confirms his prejudices is just fine, no matter how badly it's done. And his main prejudice is that bicycling is terribly dangerous! SO terribly dangerous that one must always use lights front and back that blind others, and one must never ride without a funny plastic hat, and cities must build cattle chutes to hind cyclists behind parked cars, and you really ought to have a flippy flag sticking out sideways from your bike, and you're foolish if you ride without a loud electric horn on your bike... Given that bicycles, in all states I believe, are deemed to be vehicles that have a legal right to use the public roads and highways why shouldn't they be equipped as other vehicles are? After all, if vehicle "A" must be equipped with a horn, stop lights, turn lights, etc, why shouldn't vehicle "B" be equally as well equipped? When following some farm equipment or antiques you'll notice they use hand signals, just as we do. "WE" may mean you, me, and maybe one other guy, as I can't ever remember, in some 20 or 30 years, seeing another bicycle give a hand signal. Never! -- cheers, John B. |
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