Handlebar rotation

Sierra and Gold Country is where I live and ride. Some rides have no
cell coverage whatsoever but Sprint sometimes is better than AT&T.

Gold country. Not Sierra.

John B. wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 07:07:55 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-07-11 17:56, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 07:35:27 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-07-10 18:48, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 10:31:17 -0700, Joerg
wrote:


[...]

But this is not to say that I have never seen a two wheeler hit a car.
A bloke that was in my class in collage hit a car. He was riding a
Harley down a sidewalk at what he said was "about 35 mph" and a car
"pulled out in front of him". Actually the car was on a side street
and stopped at an intersection. He hit the rear door. The results was
a dented door and a broken collar bone.

I suppose that today this would be described as "an accident" although
when it happened the fellow on the motorcycle described it as "a
damned fool stunt, that I'd not have done if I hadn't had all that
beer".


That's stupid behavior.

True, and as I wrote the guy said as much. But the point was that in
the very rare cases where a bicycle hit a car it was always been
stupid behavior on the part of the cyclist.


Always? Now explain what exactly was stupid in my behavior when I came
down a street in a city and a guy in a Volkswagen Polo who had a stop
sign pulls into that street right in front of my bicycle (resulting in a
crash).

Next, explain what was stupid in my behavior when the driver of a
Mercedes decided he could floor it and do the left turn in front of my
fast approaching bicycle (resulting in an accident).

[...]

Your logic seems a bit, well "different". You hit an auto, thus it is
the auto's fault. Using your logic if an auto hits a bicycle it is the
bicycle's fault.
--
Cheers,

John B.



Not that I usually agree with Joerg but he says the first one ran a stop
sign and the second one right hooked him. I'd say both were the fault of
the car lacking other evidence.

--
duane

On Thu, 13 Jul 2017 10:06:03 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 07:07:55 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-07-11 17:56, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 07:35:27 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-07-10 18:48, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 10:31:17 -0700, Joerg
wrote:


[...]

But this is not to say that I have never seen a two wheeler hit a car.
A bloke that was in my class in collage hit a car. He was riding a
Harley down a sidewalk at what he said was "about 35 mph" and a car
"pulled out in front of him". Actually the car was on a side street
and stopped at an intersection. He hit the rear door. The results was
a dented door and a broken collar bone.

I suppose that today this would be described as "an accident" although
when it happened the fellow on the motorcycle described it as "a
damned fool stunt, that I'd not have done if I hadn't had all that
beer".


That's stupid behavior.

True, and as I wrote the guy said as much. But the point was that in
the very rare cases where a bicycle hit a car it was always been
stupid behavior on the part of the cyclist.


Always? Now explain what exactly was stupid in my behavior when I came
down a street in a city and a guy in a Volkswagen Polo who had a stop
sign pulls into that street right in front of my bicycle (resulting in a
crash).

Next, explain what was stupid in my behavior when the driver of a
Mercedes decided he could floor it and do the left turn in front of my
fast approaching bicycle (resulting in an accident).

[...]

Your logic seems a bit, well "different". You hit an auto, thus it is
the auto's fault. Using your logic if an auto hits a bicycle it is the
bicycle's fault.
--
Cheers,

John B.



Not that I usually agree with Joerg but he says the first one ran a stop
sign and the second one right hooked him. I'd say both were the fault of
the car lacking other evidence.

In one case he says he is riding down the road and someone pulled out
in front of him, and he hit them. In the second case a Mercedes made a
left turn in front of him and he hit them..

What is next? A bicycle hits a lamp post and it is the post's fault?

But more seriously, I ride in Bangkok traffic and yes, people do
occasionally pull out of driveways in front of me and yes, cars
occasionally turn in front of me. But so far I haven't hit one. I
haven't even come close.

Am I superman?
(I just asked my wife that question and only laughed :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 2017-07-13 04:53, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 13 Jul 2017 10:06:03 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 07:07:55 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-07-11 17:56, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 07:35:27 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-07-10 18:48, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 10:31:17 -0700, Joerg
wrote:


[...]

But this is not to say that I have never seen a two wheeler hit a car.
A bloke that was in my class in collage hit a car. He was riding a
Harley down a sidewalk at what he said was "about 35 mph" and a car
"pulled out in front of him". Actually the car was on a side street
and stopped at an intersection. He hit the rear door. The results was
a dented door and a broken collar bone.

I suppose that today this would be described as "an accident" although
when it happened the fellow on the motorcycle described it as "a
damned fool stunt, that I'd not have done if I hadn't had all that
beer".


That's stupid behavior.

True, and as I wrote the guy said as much. But the point was that in
the very rare cases where a bicycle hit a car it was always been
stupid behavior on the part of the cyclist.


Always? Now explain what exactly was stupid in my behavior when I came
down a street in a city and a guy in a Volkswagen Polo who had a stop
sign pulls into that street right in front of my bicycle (resulting in a
crash).

Next, explain what was stupid in my behavior when the driver of a
Mercedes decided he could floor it and do the left turn in front of my
fast approaching bicycle (resulting in an accident).

[...]

Your logic seems a bit, well "different". You hit an auto, thus it is
the auto's fault. Using your logic if an auto hits a bicycle it is the
bicycle's fault.
--
Cheers,

John B.



Not that I usually agree with Joerg but he says the first one ran a stop
sign and the second one right hooked him. I'd say both were the fault of
the car lacking other evidence.

In one case he says he is riding down the road and someone pulled out
in front of him, and he hit them. In the second case a Mercedes made a
left turn in front of him and he hit them..


Both clearly the drivers' faults. The stop sign runner fully admitted
that. The left-turn offender hightailed it, flooring the pedal, which is
a rather clear admission of guilt (and a crime in most countries).


What is next? A bicycle hits a lamp post and it is the post's fault?

But more seriously, I ride in Bangkok traffic and yes, people do
occasionally pull out of driveways in front of me and yes, cars
occasionally turn in front of me. But so far I haven't hit one. I
haven't even come close.

Am I superman?
(I just asked my wife that question and only laughed :-)


Sometimes it is simply too late and there is nothing you can do other
than brace for impact.

In the same way you could ask whether I am superman as a car driver
because I have a clean no-claim history back to the day I received my
license. Yet no, I am not superman, I was simply lucky that I never
caused a crash. It could always happen. Like the guy who ran the stop
sign. In contrast to the left turn guy he didn't do it negligently, he
simply did not see me and I believed him. Older gentleman, was able to
afford a small brand new car for the first time in his life and now its
left side was banged up.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-07-12 18:17, Doug Landau wrote:

Sierra and Gold Country is where I live and ride. Some rides have no
cell coverage whatsoever but Sprint sometimes is better than AT&T.

Gold country. Not Sierra.


Sometimes we truck the bikes up there and ride.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Wednesday, July 12, 2017 at 5:35:20 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 07:02:37 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-07-11 18:00, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 07:40:23 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-07-10 19:09, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 12:26:05 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-10 10:54, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/10/2017 1:24 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-09 11:32, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/9/2017 10:44 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-08 15:59, jbeattie wrote:


When was the last time you were hurt on a bike? Were you
hit by a car?


No but that is because I am primarily using a mountain
bike, the way it was meant to be used. The reason I got
hurt a lot as a kid was that I used a regular bicycle on
motocross tracks without wearing any protective gear.

Other people's accidents did not always involved a direct
collision but many were caused by evasive action because of
car drivers (often truck drivers).

Maybe we should do a little survey of posters to this
discussion group. What was your last on-road bike-related
injury? Was it because you were hit by a car? Was it
because you were taking evasive action to avoid being hit by
a car? Or what was the cause?

I suppose if people prefer, they could give counts of all
their bike injury incidents instead of just the last one.

I don't have much to contribute. Since 1972: I slid out on
gravel at about 5 mph creeping down a very steep, short hill
on a city street. I scraped my knee. And the front forks of
our custom tandem snapped off on a bumpy road at about 10 mph
or less. I banged up my shoulder. So that's one crash with
the most common cause, which is the road surface; and one
crash by a relatively rare cause, component failure.

My wife's on road crashes are also two. She was on the back
of the tandem when it crashed, but she wasn't injured, just
shaken up. And many years ago, on a club ride, someone
slammed on their brakes unnecessarily in front of her. She
avoided that person as she stopped, but another rider ran
into her from behind and knocked her down. Again, no injury,
just a fall. We were about 20 miles into an 80 mile ride,
which we all finished.

More detail on the final crash above: The person who caused
the chain reaction crash had slammed on the brakes because
they were afraid of a passing truck. But none of the others
(including me, leading the ride) braked because of the truck.
It just wasn't necessary at all. So that crash was actually
caused not by the truck, but by timidity.


No, it was caused by reckless cyclist behavior. Every
respectable teacher in driver's ed teaches their students to
keep an adequate distance from the vehicle up front. One
Mississippi, two Mississippi. Simple. Failing to do so will one
day result in a crash like you described. It doesn't have to be
timidity. It could be as simple as an animal running into the
road.

You're deflecting again.

Tell us about your recent injuries, Joerg. Tell us about their
causes. Restrict it to on-road if you like. I'm saying most bike
injuries are minor and do not involve cars. You're claiming
something else. What's your experience?


Depends on what you call "recent". I had a 15+ year cycling hiatus
on account of lacking cycle path infrastructure. When that got
better I started riding again in 2013. No road injuries since then
but several evasive actions required because of motorists.

No f****** way! You were off your bike for 15 years because of lack
of "cycle path infrastructure"? Incroyable. I rode to work or school
most every day for decades without so much as a whiff of cycle path
infrastructure.


We had a few nasty accidents and cyclist fatalities in our neighborhood.
That was enough. Except for hardcore training riders you rarely saw
cyclists. Then they started putting in bike paths and bike lanes and,
predictably, that substantially changed things. Also for me. It's that
simple.

The same way I never walk to the store (well, now I ride) even though in
Europe we did that all the time. Hardly anyone else does either. Because
it is a 45mph thoroughfare, no sidewalk and often not even a shoulder..


Joerg, if riding a bicycle is as dangerious, as you certainly seem to
be arguing it is, then all I've can say is that you are a fool to be
doing it.


Where did I ever say that? Riding a bicycle on trails, bike paths, bike
lanes and in low traffic streets is a ratehr safe affair.

Try to distinguish a little more what was said in detail.

"Where did I ever say that?"

Actually you have, since you started posting here, had two main
themes. One was how absolutely **** poor commercial bicycles and their
parts were in comparison to your vaunted SUV automobile, and second,
how dangerious it is to ride a bicycle. Every time you read about a
bicycle accident you have posted something like,"See there! Another
bicyclist killed on the roads".

When Frank, I, and several others have tried to tell you that
bicycling is a relatively benign activity you have argues that "No!
No! No! It IS Dangerious".

Come on John, you know very well that a lot of people are frightened of traffic. So what? We aren't and can get along fine despite their opinions. Dan (Danimal) Tonelli who used to put in 20,000 mile years like clockwork won't even ride now. He runs despite the fact that it is more dangerous - he just doesn't see it that way.

On 2017-07-12 17:35, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 07:02:37 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-07-11 18:00, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 07:40:23 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-07-10 19:09, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 12:26:05 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-10 10:54, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/10/2017 1:24 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-09 11:32, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/9/2017 10:44 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-08 15:59, jbeattie wrote:


When was the last time you were hurt on a bike? Were you
hit by a car?


No but that is because I am primarily using a mountain
bike, the way it was meant to be used. The reason I got
hurt a lot as a kid was that I used a regular bicycle on
motocross tracks without wearing any protective gear.

Other people's accidents did not always involved a direct
collision but many were caused by evasive action because of
car drivers (often truck drivers).

Maybe we should do a little survey of posters to this
discussion group. What was your last on-road bike-related
injury? Was it because you were hit by a car? Was it
because you were taking evasive action to avoid being hit by
a car? Or what was the cause?

I suppose if people prefer, they could give counts of all
their bike injury incidents instead of just the last one.

I don't have much to contribute. Since 1972: I slid out on
gravel at about 5 mph creeping down a very steep, short hill
on a city street. I scraped my knee. And the front forks of
our custom tandem snapped off on a bumpy road at about 10 mph
or less. I banged up my shoulder. So that's one crash with
the most common cause, which is the road surface; and one
crash by a relatively rare cause, component failure.

My wife's on road crashes are also two. She was on the back
of the tandem when it crashed, but she wasn't injured, just
shaken up. And many years ago, on a club ride, someone
slammed on their brakes unnecessarily in front of her. She
avoided that person as she stopped, but another rider ran
into her from behind and knocked her down. Again, no injury,
just a fall. We were about 20 miles into an 80 mile ride,
which we all finished.

More detail on the final crash above: The person who caused
the chain reaction crash had slammed on the brakes because
they were afraid of a passing truck. But none of the others
(including me, leading the ride) braked because of the truck.
It just wasn't necessary at all. So that crash was actually
caused not by the truck, but by timidity.


No, it was caused by reckless cyclist behavior. Every
respectable teacher in driver's ed teaches their students to
keep an adequate distance from the vehicle up front. One
Mississippi, two Mississippi. Simple. Failing to do so will one
day result in a crash like you described. It doesn't have to be
timidity. It could be as simple as an animal running into the
road.

You're deflecting again.

Tell us about your recent injuries, Joerg. Tell us about their
causes. Restrict it to on-road if you like. I'm saying most bike
injuries are minor and do not involve cars. You're claiming
something else. What's your experience?


Depends on what you call "recent". I had a 15+ year cycling hiatus
on account of lacking cycle path infrastructure. When that got
better I started riding again in 2013. No road injuries since then
but several evasive actions required because of motorists.

No f****** way! You were off your bike for 15 years because of lack
of "cycle path infrastructure"? Incroyable. I rode to work or school
most every day for decades without so much as a whiff of cycle path
infrastructure.


We had a few nasty accidents and cyclist fatalities in our neighborhood.
That was enough. Except for hardcore training riders you rarely saw
cyclists. Then they started putting in bike paths and bike lanes and,
predictably, that substantially changed things. Also for me. It's that
simple.

The same way I never walk to the store (well, now I ride) even though in
Europe we did that all the time. Hardly anyone else does either. Because
it is a 45mph thoroughfare, no sidewalk and often not even a shoulder.


Joerg, if riding a bicycle is as dangerious, as you certainly seem to
be arguing it is, then all I've can say is that you are a fool to be
doing it.


Where did I ever say that? Riding a bicycle on trails, bike paths, bike
lanes and in low traffic streets is a ratehr safe affair.

Try to distinguish a little more what was said in detail.

"Where did I ever say that?"

Actually you have, since you started posting here, had two main
themes. One was how absolutely **** poor commercial bicycles and their
parts were in comparison to your vaunted SUV automobile, ...


Which unfortunately is true for many parts on bicycles.


... and second,
how dangerious it is to ride a bicycle. Every time you read about a
bicycle accident you have posted something like,"See there! Another
bicyclist killed on the roads".

When Frank, I, and several others have tried to tell you that
bicycling is a relatively benign activity you have argues that "No!
No! No! It IS Dangerious".


_On_ _the_ _road_ and _not_ where I mostly ride. As I said, try reading
the details and distinguish.

On trails, bike path and many bike lanes cycling is IME very safe and,
most importantly, largely under the control of the cyclist. For example,
I never had a critical right-hook situation on a bike lane or bike path.
My recipe for that is simple in that I don't bomb across intersections
kamikaze-style just because I have the right-of-way but first always
look if a driver is about to mess up.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 7/13/2017 6:06 AM, Duane wrote:


Not that I usually agree with Joerg but he says the first one ran a stop
sign and the second one right hooked him. I'd say both were the fault of
the car lacking other evidence.

Usually, those sorts of crashes are not legally the fault of the cyclist.

However, those are two specific crash types that the cyclist promotes by
riding too far to the right. (The third crash type is the left cross by
an oncoming motorist.) Riding far enough left to be visible and
_relevant_ greatly reduces those instances.

A further detail: To prevent pull-outs and left crosses, I think it
helps to be pedaling instead of coasting. I think there are two reasons
for this. One is that a pedaling cyclist communicates that he is,
indeed, intent on coming through the intersection. The other is that the
left-right-left motion of pedaling is uniquely human, and humans are
hard wired to notice it.

Most of the above is taught in every cyclist education program I know
of. It won't matter to Joerg, though. Despite evidence, he'll claim it's
illegal to ride safely.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 7/13/2017 10:12 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-13 04:53, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 13 Jul 2017 10:06:03 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 07:07:55 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-07-11 17:56, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 07:35:27 -0700, Joerg

wrote:

On 2017-07-10 18:48, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 10:31:17 -0700, Joerg

wrote:


[...]

But this is not to say that I have never seen a two wheeler hit
a car.
A bloke that was in my class in collage hit a car. He was riding a
Harley down a sidewalk at what he said was "about 35 mph" and a car
"pulled out in front of him". Actually the car was on a side street
and stopped at an intersection. He hit the rear door. The
results was
a dented door and a broken collar bone.

I suppose that today this would be described as "an accident"
although
when it happened the fellow on the motorcycle described it as "a
damned fool stunt, that I'd not have done if I hadn't had all that
beer".


That's stupid behavior.

True, and as I wrote the guy said as much. But the point was that in
the very rare cases where a bicycle hit a car it was always been
stupid behavior on the part of the cyclist.


Always? Now explain what exactly was stupid in my behavior when I came
down a street in a city and a guy in a Volkswagen Polo who had a stop
sign pulls into that street right in front of my bicycle (resulting
in a
crash).

Next, explain what was stupid in my behavior when the driver of a
Mercedes decided he could floor it and do the left turn in front of my
fast approaching bicycle (resulting in an accident).

[...]

Your logic seems a bit, well "different". You hit an auto, thus it is
the auto's fault. Using your logic if an auto hits a bicycle it is the
bicycle's fault.
--
Cheers,

John B.



Not that I usually agree with Joerg but he says the first one ran a
stop
sign and the second one right hooked him. I'd say both were the
fault of
the car lacking other evidence.

In one case he says he is riding down the road and someone pulled out
in front of him, and he hit them. In the second case a Mercedes made a
left turn in front of him and he hit them..


Both clearly the drivers' faults. The stop sign runner fully admitted
that. The left-turn offender hightailed it, flooring the pedal, which is
a rather clear admission of guilt (and a crime in most countries).


What is next? A bicycle hits a lamp post and it is the post's fault?

But more seriously, I ride in Bangkok traffic and yes, people do
occasionally pull out of driveways in front of me and yes, cars
occasionally turn in front of me. But so far I haven't hit one. I
haven't even come close.

Am I superman?
(I just asked my wife that question and only laughed :-)


Sometimes it is simply too late and there is nothing you can do other
than brace for impact.

There are other things you can do before it's too late. That's how some
riders avoid these crashes their entire riding career.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 8:31:48 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/13/2017 6:06 AM, Duane wrote:


Not that I usually agree with Joerg but he says the first one ran a stop
sign and the second one right hooked him. I'd say both were the fault of
the car lacking other evidence.

Usually, those sorts of crashes are not legally the fault of the cyclist.

However, those are two specific crash types that the cyclist promotes by
riding too far to the right. (The third crash type is the left cross by
an oncoming motorist.) Riding far enough left to be visible and
_relevant_ greatly reduces those instances.

A further detail: To prevent pull-outs and left crosses, I think it
helps to be pedaling instead of coasting. I think there are two reasons
for this. One is that a pedaling cyclist communicates that he is,
indeed, intent on coming through the intersection. The other is that the
left-right-left motion of pedaling is uniquely human, and humans are
hard wired to notice it.

Most of the above is taught in every cyclist education program I know
of. It won't matter to Joerg, though. Despite evidence, he'll claim it's
illegal to ride safely.

I think Joerg (who can speak for himself) would say that bikes and cars don't mix regardless of riding technique because car drivers are all drunk, stoned, distracted and generally homicidal.

Personally, I pedal through intersections because that's what propels my bike forward, but I don't expect that my pedaling is making me more conspicuous or communicating in any way with motorists. With all the blacked-out windows, who knows what's going on in the car, and if I wanted to start a dialog, I would need a PA system. "You there, in the car, I am pedaling through the intersection. Do not turn. Remain stopped until the intersection is clear. Thank you for your cooperation." Maybe a retina burning flasher, if I were that paranoid.

The best way of staying safe is moving through the intersection with the cars. I use the metal cows as cover -- but you have to watch them closely, just like riding through a herd of real cows.

-- Jay Beattie.