New Bike bought - lots of questions.

Hi All

After an absence of many years I have today bought a bike that I am really
pleased with but there are lots of things I am not sure about so am hoping
people on here are willing to help me. My bike is a Giant FCR2 which is a
flat bar road bike and I intend to use it for training and leisure as I want
to lose a considerable amount of weight over a period of time. I was
diagnosed with an illness which I will have for life in Sept '03 and I have
to make sure that I get myself fit to stay healthy. Some of my questions
are therefore technical about the bike and some are training related - hope
nobody minds.

Bike

1. The bike is fitted with tubes which have long Presta valves which are
fine. Problem is that, at the same time, I bought a Specialized Airtool
Track pump as I believed this to have the ability to fit either schraeder
(spelling?) or presta valves. I can only assume the long valves are the
problem as the pump, in either setting, merely deflates the tyres - unless I
am cocking up somewhere?

Is it possible to fit ordinary tubes/valves to this bike as the rims are
quite deep? Failing that which track pump will do the job on long valves?
I know Wiggle have a few but none seem to answer this question - I can get
another pump if needs be.

2. The tube size is stated on the box as 700 x 20/28. This means nothing
to me I am afraid - what size are my wheels?

Training

1. I need to lose weight - am I correct in that longer lower intensity
rides are the key? How long/far would be recommended?

2. To help me achieve this I have heard that a HRM would be useful but I
know naff all about them or what zones I should be aiming for. Some sites
seem to advocate 60 - 70% of your max HR using the 220 - age formula whilst
others advise the Karvonen formula of factoring in your RHR, therefore
effectively making your 'fat burn' zone at a higher level than the age
related formula. Cardiosport seem to do a few good ones but how useful are
they exactly?

3. Clothing. I am lost in the terminology - what's a 'jersey' as opposed
to an 'outer layer' and what would you advise as appropriate shorst or leg
wear?

My sincere apologies for potential 'dumbness' of these questions but I
really would appreciate any advice or help.

Best regards



Yes you can tell I have spent all week reading up - none of it makes sense!!

Whiskey the Tat wrote:
Hi All

After an absence of many years I have today bought a bike that I am really
pleased with but there are lots of things I am not sure about so am hoping
people on here are willing to help me. My bike is a Giant FCR2 which is a
flat bar road bike and I intend to use it for training and leisure as I want
to lose a considerable amount of weight over a period of time. I was
diagnosed with an illness which I will have for life in Sept '03 and I have
to make sure that I get myself fit to stay healthy. Some of my questions
are therefore technical about the bike and some are training related - hope
nobody minds.

Bike

1. The bike is fitted with tubes which have long Presta valves which are
fine. Problem is that, at the same time, I bought a Specialized Airtool
Track pump as I believed this to have the ability to fit either schraeder
(spelling?) or presta valves. I can only assume the long valves are the
problem as the pump, in either setting, merely deflates the tyres - unless I
am cocking up somewhere?
It should work ok. Place the punp on the valve, lift the lever up, and
pump away! Otherwise back to the lbs...

Is it possible to fit ordinary tubes/valves to this bike as the rims are
quite deep? Failing that which track pump will do the job on long valves?
I know Wiggle have a few but none seem to answer this question - I can get
another pump if needs be.

2. The tube size is stated on the box as 700 x 20/28. This means nothing
to me I am afraid - what size are my wheels?
They are probably 700c rims, and the tube is designed to be used on
tyres from 20 to 28 mm. However, 26 inch mountain bike wheels are almost
the same size. The tyre should tell you,

Training

1. I need to lose weight - am I correct in that longer lower intensity
rides are the key? How long/far would be recommended?
Personally, I think that this is a load of crap. More of the calories
burned are from fat at low levels of intensity. What advocates of this
forget is that you burn a lot more calories a higher intensities. Also,
the calories have to come from somewhere in the long run. So, if you use
them from other sources in the short term, then these have to be
replaced from some source afterwards!

Calories out in = weight loss.

As for the type of excercise, just listen to your body. Get used to
cycling, and exercise in general. The changes you will see initially are
quite large, which is a great incentive! Distances depend on how flat
the countryside is. I'd aim to get up to a comfortable 30 minutes to
start, then sit at that time for a week or two, and try improving the
quality of the training. Then do the same for 45 mins, and hour, 90 mins
( by now it's a glorious summers day, and you may well be doing longer,
easier rides as well, just enjoying the countryside! ).


2. To help me achieve this I have heard that a HRM would be useful but I
know naff all about them or what zones I should be aiming for. Some sites
seem to advocate 60 - 70% of your max HR using the 220 - age formula whilst
others advise the Karvonen formula of factoring in your RHR, therefore
effectively making your 'fat burn' zone at a higher level than the age
related formula. Cardiosport seem to do a few good ones but how useful are
they exactly?
I'd worry about that in 9 months time. Your HR will be all over the
place to start with. You'll also find out about the scary heights that
it gets to before you start sweating in exercise ( i used to get well
over 220! ). Your weight will come down nicely with the change in
lifestyle that you're talking about.

3. Clothing. I am lost in the terminology - what's a 'jersey' as opposed
to an 'outer layer' and what would you advise as appropriate shorst or leg
wear?
The most important thing is to protect your nether regions, so padded
shorts are top of the list! The idea behind layered clothing is that you
can keep to the rught temperature most of the time by removing one of
many ( well, not that many! ) layers. In this context, the outer layer
is usually a water and or wind proof one, for those lovely summer evenings!

My sincere apologies for potential 'dumbness' of these questions but I
really would appreciate any advice or help.

Best regards



Yes you can tell I have spent all week reading up - none of it makes sense!!



Now's the time to get out there. Bike maintenance will take up the rest
of the time that you would otherwise spend fantasizing about chocolate (:

It does work, I promise you!

Steve
(70lbs lighter than when he started)

"Whiskey the Tat" wrote in message
...
Hi All

After an absence of many years I have today bought a bike that I am really
pleased with but there are lots of things I am not sure about so am hoping
people on here are willing to help me. My bike is a Giant FCR2 which is a
flat bar road bike and I intend to use it for training and leisure as I
want
to lose a considerable amount of weight over a period of time. I was
diagnosed with an illness which I will have for life in Sept '03 and I
have
to make sure that I get myself fit to stay healthy. Some of my questions
are therefore technical about the bike and some are training related -
hope
nobody minds.

Bike

1. The bike is fitted with tubes which have long Presta valves which
are
fine. Problem is that, at the same time, I bought a Specialized Airtool
Track pump as I believed this to have the ability to fit either schraeder
(spelling?) or presta valves. I can only assume the long valves are the
problem as the pump, in either setting, merely deflates the tyres - unless
I
am cocking up somewhere?

Is it possible to fit ordinary tubes/valves to this bike as the rims are
quite deep? Failing that which track pump will do the job on long valves?
I know Wiggle have a few but none seem to answer this question - I can get
another pump if needs be.

had a look at the picture on Specialized site so here goes. Presta valves
(which you have) should be fine with this pump and are standard for higher
pressure tyres. If you bought Scrader ones (like a car tyre) you would
probably find they will not fit the holes in your rim as they are larger. To
pump up a Presta valve you first take off the plastic cap THEN undo the
knurled metal nut that is fixed on the shank - it doesn't come off all the
way,2 or 3 turns is usually enough. Then clamp on the pump and fire away .
The pressure you should be working to is on the side of the tyre (as is its
size); generally about 10% less air in the front than back is about right.
Tyres will usually take more pressure than it says so better to be on the
high side of the range especially if you are generously built!
Once inflated undo the pump lever and ease off the head with your thumbs.
Try to keep it straight as it is not a good idea to bend the shank of the
valve. Tighten the knurled nut and put plastic dust cap bacl on. Repeat for
the other tyre...

2. The tube size is stated on the box as 700 x 20/28. This means
nothing
to me I am afraid - what size are my wheels?
This means the tube will fit in this particular range of tyre sizes. Your
bike has 700c wheels. The tyre size is on the side.

Training

1. I need to lose weight - am I correct in that longer lower intensity
rides are the key? How long/far would be recommended?

2. To help me achieve this I have heard that a HRM would be useful but
I
know naff all about them or what zones I should be aiming for. Some
sites
seem to advocate 60 - 70% of your max HR using the 220 - age formula
whilst
others advise the Karvonen formula of factoring in your RHR, therefore
effectively making your 'fat burn' zone at a higher level than the age
related formula. Cardiosport seem to do a few good ones but how useful are
they exactly?
Best deal at the moment (my opinion only) is on sdeals.com
Sigma PC14 HRM ESPC14

Heart rate display, Clock, Stopwatch
Calendar, Upper/lower limits, Out of Zone alarm
Max HR, Ave HR, Lap counter,
Calories, Daily alarm, %age Upper RT,
%age Max HR, Back light.

Price 53 euros

However I think you may be better off at the moment getting a simple
computer. Easy to keep track of your rides and helps to see the improvement
that will come. I've had HRms but find in general if you stick at a speed
where you can talk but are puffing a bit that's about right. generally the
HRs derived from the formulae are a guide only although Karvonene is usually
better if you want a start point. In terms of distance I would start off on
a time basis 20 minutes out then 20 minutes back 3 times a week. You build
on this gradually increasing by about 10% a week. It's usually considered a
good idea to have at least 1 day a week off for recovery. Some people can do
more - depends on your age ( you recover more slowly as you age) and natural
talent. its generally better to build gradually than overdo it ; get
overtired; stop; then start again 2 weeks later back at square 1.

3. Clothing. I am lost in the terminology - what's a 'jersey' as
opposed
to an 'outer layer' and what would you advise as appropriate shorst or leg
wear?

The only essential is a pair of cycling shorts, clean on every time and worn
next to the skin. Go to your LBS (local bike shop) and try some on -
different brands seem to come up different sizes. Apart from these wear
layers; preferably not cotton as it gets soggy and then you get cold. Gloves
are also a Good Idea; if you come off they do a pretty good job of
protecting your hands from gravel rash which hurts and can get messy. Cycle
specific tops come in all sorts of designs, geneally slightly longer than
other sports kit to kep your back covred when you lean over the bars and
have bck pockets for odds and ends - front pockets are only good if you're
on a recumbent!


My sincere apologies for potential 'dumbness' of these questions but I

really would appreciate any advice or help.

Best regards



Yes you can tell I have spent all week reading up - none of it makes
sense!!


Hope this helps with some of the queries

Julia

Whiskey the Tat wrote:
1. The bike is fitted with tubes which have long Presta valves
which are fine. Problem is that, at the same time, I bought a
Specialized Airtool Track pump as I believed this to have the ability
to fit either schraeder (spelling?) or presta valves. I can only
assume the long valves are the problem as the pump, in either
setting, merely deflates the tyres - unless I am cocking up somewhere?

A Presta valve can't be too long for a pump. The pump head only has to be
pushed on as far as necessary to work, rather than pushed on as far as
possible. It can be too short, though.

I don't know the Airtool but I've got a Topeak head that automatically
works with both Schrader and Presta valves. You undo Presta nut, give it
a quick press to release some air (this unsticks the valve), push pump
head on enough for it to grip, pull lever to lock.

You might be going wrong with the lever (if there is one) or are pushing
head on too far, or perhaps the pump is faulty, or maybe it's a
Schrader-only job afterall?

Is it possible to fit ordinary tubes/valves to this bike as the rims
are quite deep?

I don't know the particular rims or tubes but it helps to have more than
2cm (pref 3cm) protruding from the rim.

Failing that which track pump will do the job on
long valves? I know Wiggle have a few but none seem to answer this
question - I can get another pump if needs be.

You shouldn't need different tubes or different pump.

2. The tube size is stated on the box as 700 x 20/28. This means
nothing to me I am afraid - what size are my wheels?

Wheel diameter will be marked on the rim. If tubes are correct it will be
"700c". This is a code for a metric size that's a bit smaller (and
incompatible with) 27 inch rims, but larger than 26" mountain bike rims.
It's not actually 700mm.
Tubes need to match the tyres. Tyre size should be on sidewall.
Width will be in millimetres if diameter is 700c.
See: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tire-sizing.html

I'll leave the training questions for those who know more about all
that... I just ride my bikes :-)

My sincere apologies for potential 'dumbness' of these questions but I
really would appreciate any advice or help.

No need to apologise. I posted a question here on how to fit a junior
hacksaw blade. Now that's dumb! (To be fair-ish, the saw I was trying to
use was rubbish).

~PB

On 3/4/04 11:02 pm, in article ,
"Whiskey the Tat" wrote:

Hi All

After an absence of many years I have today bought a bike that I am really
pleased with but there are lots of things I am not sure about so am hoping
people on here are willing to help me. My bike is a Giant FCR2 which is a
flat bar road bike and I intend to use it for training and leisure as I want
to lose a considerable amount of weight over a period of time. I was
diagnosed with an illness which I will have for life in Sept '03 and I have
to make sure that I get myself fit to stay healthy. Some of my questions
are therefore technical about the bike and some are training related - hope
nobody minds.

Bike

1. The bike is fitted with tubes which have long Presta valves which are
fine. Problem is that, at the same time, I bought a Specialized Airtool
Track pump as I believed this to have the ability to fit either schraeder
(spelling?) or presta valves. I can only assume the long valves are the
problem as the pump, in either setting, merely deflates the tyres - unless I
am cocking up somewhere?

Possibly. It would be worth your while asking someone to show you how to use
the pump properly on your bike. I don't mean to sound condescending, but it
is always worth asking someone who should know what they are doing. How
about the shop you bought the bike and pump from?

Is it possible to fit ordinary tubes/valves to this bike as the rims are
quite deep? Failing that which track pump will do the job on long valves?
I know Wiggle have a few but none seem to answer this question - I can get
another pump if needs be.

Possibly not. If the rims are deep and are presta width then you won't fit
schraeder valves in.

2. The tube size is stated on the box as 700 x 20/28. This means nothing
to me I am afraid - what size are my wheels?

ETRO 622, also known as 700c. The tube will fit a tyre from 20mm (very
narrow, great for speed) to 28mm (fairly broad for a road bike, good for
comfort). The optimum tyre width depends on exactly what you want to do with
the bike and the nature of the roads you are riding over.


Training

1. I need to lose weight - am I correct in that longer lower intensity
rides are the key? How long/far would be recommended?

Just ride. Riding burns calories. Riding is fun. If you burn up more than
you take in then you will be losing weight. The more riding you do...

2. To help me achieve this I have heard that a HRM would be useful but I
know naff all about them or what zones I should be aiming for. Some sites
seem to advocate 60 - 70% of your max HR using the 220 - age formula whilst
others advise the Karvonen formula of factoring in your RHR, therefore
effectively making your 'fat burn' zone at a higher level than the age
related formula. Cardiosport seem to do a few good ones but how useful are
they exactly?

I found them really good in telling me to slow down, so I could actually
ride longer distances. Apart from that, they are useful in training for
performance. In general I use the voice test. If I can sing then I am not
going hard enough. If I can't talk I am going too hard.
In general just go out and ride. If you are just doing a short trip, ride
hard. For a longer trip, ride at a pace you think you can keep up. Listen to
your body. It tells you more than a HRM can.


3. Clothing. I am lost in the terminology - what's a 'jersey' as opposed
to an 'outer layer' and what would you advise as appropriate shorst or leg
wear?

A jersey is a cycle top, typically figure hugging and with pockets on the
back for putting bits in.
The layering principle works on three layers:

base layer: sits next to the skin and is responsible for wicking sweat away
from the body. A thermal top such as the ones made by Helly Hansen is useful
in cooler weather. In warmer weather the jersey takes on this role.

Mid layer: responsible for insulation. A fleece or some such is good in cool
weather. Not really needed in warm weather.

Outer layer (also known as shell layer): Waterproof or windproof layer.
Tends to be some sort of breathable fabric. This is the sort of thing you
won't be wearing all the time, especially in the summer as you could get
quite sweaty with out the wind getting to you. You'll typically put this on
before you need a mid layer though as it keeps the wind off.

Padded shorts are good. Very comfortable. An ex girlfriend of mine also
claimed they were very slimming, as long as you were actually on the bike.
You don't need to wear underwear under them.

The other things that are good (in no particular order)

1. cycle shoes. These tend to be stiffer than normal shoes and are more
comfortable over anything other than a very short distance.
2. Gloves. Fingerless gloves are great.
2a. you may want to add bar ends to the handlebars to give more hand
positions.
3. Cheap cycling sunglasses keep the protein out of your eyes.
4. Cycle jerseys are good.
5. Ron Hill tracksters/Bikesters for leg wear

Bad things:

1. trousers where you carry things in pockets.
2. soft soled shoes.

My sincere apologies for potential 'dumbness' of these questions but I
really would appreciate any advice or help.

Good luck with the weight loss. I have lost over 15 kilos since last
summer.. and still going.

...d

Whiskey the Tat wrote:
3. Clothing. I am lost in the terminology - what's a 'jersey' as
opposed to an 'outer layer'

"Jersey" is any cycling shirt (usually with zip and rear pockets) designed
to be worn either next to skin or over a "base layer" undershirt/vest.
Can be short or long sleeved. They were woolen in the old days, hence the
name, but modern ones are thin polyester shirts, really. Use a wind proof
gilet or jacket over the top when necessary.

and what would you advise as appropriate
shorst or leg wear?

Cycling shorts (+ something to go over the top for colder weather: lots of
options: browse local/online bike shops).

~PB

"Whiskey the Tat" wrote in message
...

My sincere apologies for potential 'dumbness' of these questions but I
really would appreciate any advice or help.

No such thing as a dumb question, only dumb answers...so I'll try to avoid
that pitfall ;-)

The only thing I'd add to the advice already given is to take it easy.
Assuming you are a little overweight, not fresh from the womb and not mega
fit listen to you body and ease off if you feel stressed.

Re. HRM: the 220 minus your age is bollox, the only way to ascertain your
own max rate is to monitor it when working at your own limit, not a good
idea if you've been sedentary for a long period.

Enjoy your riding, you've picked a good time of the year to start and give
us the occasional update.

Can't hang about, the outdoors is beckoning!
--
Regards,
Pete

Following on from Whiskey the Tat's message. . .

I do not wish to imply you shouldn't ask here, that's the whole point of
the ng, but a good LBS is invaluable. (What is a LBS you ask - A Local
Bike Shop.) They can show you, tell you, warn you and get you out of a
hole.

1. I need to lose weight - am I correct in that longer lower intensity
rides are the key? How long/far would be recommended?
If person X is used to doing lots of muscular work they will be much
better at doing lots of it than person Y who hasn't done any exercise
for a long time. Basically a fitter person has a bigger engine which
makes it easier to burn fuel - and cover the miles without 'over-reving'
if you see what I mean.

So to start with don't expect to be able to do all the hills without
getting off and don't expect to go millions of miles at the speed of
light. But after a short while . . . you'll be pleased to be brushing
off such obstacles.[1]

A bike computer and a spreadsheet to record your rides puts numbers on
this performance.

You might be able to find a buddy or local cycling group. This is great
because you egg each other on with trivial challenges which makes
putting in an extra effort when you'd ease up on your own good fun.[2]

Standard note for new cyclists : Get the book Cyclecraft by John
Franklin ISBN 0117020516 - Essential reading.

[1] But you can _never_ beat the wind!

[2] An exercise bike is to a real bike as a solo ride is to a ride with
company.

--
PETER FOX Not the same since the deckchair business folded

www.eminent.demon.co.uk/wcc.htm Witham Cycling Campaign
www.eminent.demon.co.uk/rides East Anglian Pub cycle rides

1. The bike is fitted with tubes which have long Presta valves which are
fine. Problem is that, at the same time, I bought a Specialized Airtool
Track pump as I believed this to have the ability to fit either schraeder
(spelling?) or presta valves. I can only assume the long valves are the
problem as the pump, in either setting, merely deflates the tyres - unless I
am cocking up somewhere?

My Specialized (non-track) pump takes both types of valves BUT you
have to set it up for the correct one: the wrong setting used on
presta valves merely deflates the tyres :-(. If this is the case for
your pump, there will be a ring of plastic surrounding the hole where
you put the valve in, which you can unscrew. Do so. Now you can see
a plastic shell and an inner core with a hole through the middle.
Using your fingernails/tweezers extract the central core. This will
have two parts, in my case a rubber one and a plastic one. Keeping
the pieces in the same order wrt the pump rotate each through 180 deg.
You will find that they fit together in this orientation as well, but
may have a "tail" at the end which goes furthest into the pump. Put
them back in the pump and screw the cap-thing back on. Now try
pumping up your tyre.

Training

1. I need to lose weight - am I correct in that longer lower intensity
rides are the key? How long/far would be recommended?

IMO you are better off riding regularly shorter distances than once a
week for a longer one. Make it an unbreakable rule that you ride the
bike for at least 20 mins EVERY DAY (or if you need a rest day, decide
which it is and stick to it).

To start with I would ride "out" for 30 mins, possibly take a minute
or two rest, and then ride "in". Then you have a starting point.
From there you can try to go further in your 30 mins, or us it to work
out a circular route (these are best in the long run since you HAVE to
keep going to the end).

Watch your knees! You might need to adjust the saddle height or pedal
faster on a lower gear (incidentally, burns more calories). See
previous threads.

2. To help me achieve this I have heard that a HRM would be useful but I

You don't need a heart rate monitor. When you start to feel a bit
faint, slow down or stop until it eases and then continue a little
more gently. If you are so out of breath you can't hold a
conversation or shout for someone to get out of your way, then equally
you should ease off. But if a monitor makes you happy by all means
use one. Look out for one which you could use off the bike as well eg
for walking/running, if you are not only going to cycle yourself fit.

3. Clothing. I am lost in the terminology - what's a 'jersey' as opposed
to an 'outer layer' and what would you advise as appropriate shorst or leg
wear?

Whatever keeps you warm but not hot. You'll probably want cycling
specific leg wear so it is cut for being in the saddle, and has
(washable) padding in the saddle region. Shorts come baggy style or
lyrca-racing style. You might feel less self-conscious in baggy
shorts, but lycra ones tend to have more padding (and can be worn
underneath something else).

In no time you will be pootling to the shops on the bike, cycling to
work, looking like a different person and wondering what that strange
thing is doing taking up all your the space in your garage.

Happy cycling,
Sarennah

in message , Whiskey the Tat
') wrote:

Hi All

After an absence of many years I have today bought a bike that I am
really pleased with but there are lots of things I am not sure about
so am hoping
people on here are willing to help me. My bike is a Giant FCR2 which
is a flat bar road bike and I intend to use it for training and
leisure as I want
to lose a considerable amount of weight over a period of time. I was
diagnosed with an illness which I will have for life in Sept '03 and I
have
to make sure that I get myself fit to stay healthy. Some of my
questions are therefore technical about the bike and some are training
related - hope nobody minds.

Bike

1. The bike is fitted with tubes which have long Presta valves
which are
fine. Problem is that, at the same time, I bought a Specialized
Airtool Track pump as I believed this to have the ability to fit
either schraeder
(spelling?) or presta valves. I can only assume the long valves are
the problem as the pump, in either setting, merely deflates the tyres
- unless I am cocking up somewhere?

Possibly. The central knurled barrel of the presta valve has to be
unscrewed slightly for the tyre to be inflated - and the screwed up
finger-tight again afterwards. Also some pumps require to have a
component turned round in the inflating head to fit the different valve
types. In my opinion Presta are better valves - I would advise you to
take the bike and pump back to the shop where you got the pump and get
them to show you how to use it. My own track pump does not seal
brilliantly on Prestas but is good for about 130psi and as I run my
tyres at 110psi this is good enough for me.

Is it possible to fit ordinary tubes/valves to this bike as the rims
are
quite deep? Failing that which track pump will do the job on long
valves? I know Wiggle have a few but none seem to answer this question
- I can get another pump if needs be.

I wouldn't advise this. Your present setup will almost certainly do the
job fine - just get someone to show you how to use it.

2. The tube size is stated on the box as 700 x 20/28. This means
nothing to me I am afraid - what size are my wheels?

700C, which is the common standrd for road bikes these days. It's
marginally smaller than the old 27".

Training

1. I need to lose weight - am I correct in that longer lower
intensity
rides are the key? How long/far would be recommended?

Don't ask me. I've never found that cycling helped me to _lose_ weight,
although it is very good at converting flab into muscle.

3. Clothing. I am lost in the terminology - what's a 'jersey' as
opposed to an 'outer layer' and what would you advise as appropriate
shorst or leg wear?

Oh, bugger the 'base layer' and 'outer layer' nonsense. A 'base layer'
is just a vest. The science speak is just bull**** to baffle the
purchasor. An 'outer layer' is a jersey. I prefer silk for vests - it
wicks just as well as and is a damn sight more comfortable than any of
the 'hi tech' alternatives. Merino wool jerseys are nice but to be
honest my current favourite is a Campag one which is made out of some
sort of plastic or other.

Do wear lycra shorts or tights. If you are somewhat large around the
middle you will need bib-shorts or bib-tights, because elastic waisted
ones won't stay up and will be uncomfortable. Ignore the Peurile
Sartorial Fascist on this group, she's keen enough to pass judgement on
the ways other people support flabby body parts but wouldn't be seen
dead without her bra.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

'there are no solutions, only precipitates'