Road Discs

On Monday, October 2, 2017 at 4:06:50 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, October 1, 2017 at 11:55:11 PM UTC-7, Cordy wrote:
Il 29/09/2017 18:01, ha scritto:
On Friday, September 29, 2017 at 12:25:59 AM UTC-7, Cordy wrote:
Il 27/09/2017 23:00, ha scritto:
Thanks Cordy. That is pretty much my idea as well. On heavy
bikes where you might have to stop suddenly - Full Suspension
MTB's or in your case a Touring bike fully loaded - I can see
them but I would still be concerned about pad wear.


I know it's an issue on MTBs. Not on my travl bike, in my
experience. The pads last much more than V-brake shoes on my
friend's bike. The point I was trying to point out was different.
With disks braking action is more easy, in terms of force and
modulation.

I have a set of hydraulic disks on my cross bike. I absolutely would
NOT say that they had "improved" modulation. I would say that they
have greatly increased sensitivity - to the point where it is too
easy to over-brake on a light bike.


Probably, that's what I meant, writing "if the system is properly set",
suggesting to wait a few more months, before purchasing a road disk race
bike. All the systems are new and probably a few of them are not
correctly engineered for the narrow wheels installed on a race bike.
It's too early to point out which are the best systems, now.
Just to mention: I have Avid Elixir 3, which is probably similar to what
you have on your cross bike, but they are a perfect match with my
(heavy) bike. Not too sensitive, for sure. Easy is the right word. NEVER
locked wheels.

Shimano makes a range of hydraulic discs for road bikes. They work beautifully, and the shaking-out of standards relates more to frame mounts and through axle standards for frames. The brakes themselves modulate well and haven't been a problem for me, and IMO, the technology is pretty mature.

What one would expect after a decade and a half experience with hydraulic disc brakes on MTB's. Like you said the possible problems are frame related, as with MTB's.

My first set was on a Roubaix that got stolen, and the second set is on a gravel bike with narrow tires which is now doubling as my "fast" bike, which it isn't. Great for riding in the rain.

The cable discs on my commuter are finally dialed-in. I replaced a weak rear first-generation Avid BB7 as well as some cable housing that added a ton of drag. They take more hand pressure than hydraulics but are exceptionally simple and effective when properly set-up.

I bought my first cross bike after they were available with disc brakes. The first one with cable disc (BB7). To be able to apply enough hand pressure you have to be in the drops. That is not the default hand position on a cross bike. Changing hand position is not easy on a steep bumpy downhill track. With the Shimano disc brakes I can stay on the hoods and be able to brake hard enough on a steep descent without to much hand pressure. With cable disc you still have the issues with cable pollution and drag and I found pad replacement on BB7 a PIA compared with the pad replacement on the Shimano hydraulic brakes. My two cents.

Lou

On Sunday, October 1, 2017 at 5:10:20 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, October 1, 2017 at 10:26:02 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, October 1, 2017 at 6:51:54 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Saturday, September 30, 2017 at 9:36:52 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Saturday, September 30, 2017 at 12:18:38 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, September 29, 2017 at 6:01:14 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Friday, September 29, 2017 at 12:25:59 AM UTC-7, Cordy wrote:
Il 27/09/2017 23:00, ha scritto:
Thanks Cordy. That is pretty much my idea as well. On heavy bikes
where you might have to stop suddenly - Full Suspension MTB's or in
your case a Touring bike fully loaded - I can see them but I would
still be concerned about pad wear.


I know it's an issue on MTBs. Not on my travl bike, in my experience.
The pads last much more than V-brake shoes on my friend's bike.
The point I was trying to point out was different. With disks braking
action is more easy, in terms of force and modulation.

I have a set of hydraulic disks on my cross bike. I absolutely would NOT say that they had "improved" modulation. I would say that they have greatly increased sensitivity - to the point where it is too easy to over-brake on a light bike.

Tom, can you tell us what hydraulic disk brakes you had/have on your crossbike?

Avid.

Didn't know Avid has hydraulic disk brakes for drop bars.

It's a flat bar bike. On the trails around here using drop bars is crazy. When you're going down steeper than 24% you have to have the hand strength of Hercules to stay on the bike. Hell, 15% if uncomfortable on a drop bar.

Dude, you should rest your old bones and get a mountain bike with suspension. I'm going to do that one day. All my friends leave me behind when they go on MTB rides.

If you ride with other people off-road you're crazy. You're either trying to catch up or they're likely to run over you. I prefer a bicycle to feel like a bicycle and not like a car that costs as much as a car.

On Monday, October 2, 2017 at 7:24:42 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, October 2, 2017 at 4:06:50 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, October 1, 2017 at 11:55:11 PM UTC-7, Cordy wrote:
Il 29/09/2017 18:01, ha scritto:
On Friday, September 29, 2017 at 12:25:59 AM UTC-7, Cordy wrote:
Il 27/09/2017 23:00, ha scritto:
Thanks Cordy. That is pretty much my idea as well. On heavy
bikes where you might have to stop suddenly - Full Suspension
MTB's or in your case a Touring bike fully loaded - I can see
them but I would still be concerned about pad wear.


I know it's an issue on MTBs. Not on my travl bike, in my
experience. The pads last much more than V-brake shoes on my
friend's bike. The point I was trying to point out was different.
With disks braking action is more easy, in terms of force and
modulation.

I have a set of hydraulic disks on my cross bike. I absolutely would
NOT say that they had "improved" modulation. I would say that they
have greatly increased sensitivity - to the point where it is too
easy to over-brake on a light bike.


Probably, that's what I meant, writing "if the system is properly set",
suggesting to wait a few more months, before purchasing a road disk race
bike. All the systems are new and probably a few of them are not
correctly engineered for the narrow wheels installed on a race bike.
It's too early to point out which are the best systems, now.
Just to mention: I have Avid Elixir 3, which is probably similar to what
you have on your cross bike, but they are a perfect match with my
(heavy) bike. Not too sensitive, for sure. Easy is the right word. NEVER
locked wheels.

Shimano makes a range of hydraulic discs for road bikes. They work beautifully, and the shaking-out of standards relates more to frame mounts and through axle standards for frames. The brakes themselves modulate well and haven't been a problem for me, and IMO, the technology is pretty mature.

What one would expect after a decade and a half experience with hydraulic disc brakes on MTB's. Like you said the possible problems are frame related, as with MTB's.

My first set was on a Roubaix that got stolen, and the second set is on a gravel bike with narrow tires which is now doubling as my "fast" bike, which it isn't. Great for riding in the rain.

The cable discs on my commuter are finally dialed-in. I replaced a weak rear first-generation Avid BB7 as well as some cable housing that added a ton of drag. They take more hand pressure than hydraulics but are exceptionally simple and effective when properly set-up.

I bought my first cross bike after they were available with disc brakes. The first one with cable disc (BB7). To be able to apply enough hand pressure you have to be in the drops. That is not the default hand position on a cross bike. Changing hand position is not easy on a steep bumpy downhill track. With the Shimano disc brakes I can stay on the hoods and be able to brake hard enough on a steep descent without to much hand pressure. With cable disc you still have the issues with cable pollution and drag and I found pad replacement on BB7 a PIA compared with the pad replacement on the Shimano hydraulic brakes. My two cents.

BB7 pad installation is certainly harder than with the Shimano brakes which are like putting a piece of bread in a toaster. Then again, it should be easy, because you pay for it. https://www.amazon.com/Shimano-Metal.../dp/B016REU1ZG

-- Jay Beattie.

On 10/1/2017 8:42 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, October 1, 2017 at 6:26:20 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, October 1, 2017 at 2:57:28 AM UTC-4, James wrote:
On 01/10/17 12:46, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/30/2017 2:17 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, September 30, 2017 at 9:43:35 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman
wrote:

My old MTB is my commute bike, shared paths bit of gravel in places
tarmac
etc! Pads last thousands of miles literally years, the New MTB at best a
few months! Worse a few red rides, they are toast.

That's true -- particularly with the resin organic pads. You get less
stops -- but they're really GOOD stops.
So before any long ride, be sure you've loaded your bike bag with spares.


Nah, just fit different pads. But if you did want to take spares, they
are very thin and light, so no inconvenience.

--
JS

Until like happened to my friend on slope on a crushed limestone rail-trail he squeezed his disc brake lever in order to slow down a bit andthe lever went all the way to the handlebar with NO effect on his speed at all. "Look! NO BRAKES!"

For whatever reason he went through disc pads at quite a rate. I've been told that disc brakes are for HARD application of the brake NOT for modulating speed by repeated light applications which WILL wear out pads quickly. Also, apparently stone dust or dust in general will cause rapid wear of disc brake pads.

I prefer brakes that give advance warning that they are getting ready to fail. YMMV

You have to watch pad adjustment with cable discs. Hydraulic discs self-adjust. Both give you a warning before the pad or braking is gone. A "ticking" with Avid BB7s as the return spring hits the rotor. On my hydraulics, I blew through a pad without noticing and was braking with the aluminum carrier. No permanent rotor damage. The bike still stopped but made noise. But yes, pads wear much faster than rim brake pads, particularly resin organic. Metal pads are probably three sets to one compared to rubber rim brake pads in year-round road riding. The ratio changes in different settings, probably never for the better.

The road bikes with discs all seem to use hydraulic discs with CF wheels.

There are two choices in new rides for someone of your statu

https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bikes/road-bikes/performance-road/domane/domane-slr/domane-slr-9-disc/p/1477500-2018

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/men/bikes/road/sworks-venge-vias-disc-etap/134294

I think you'll be happy with either choice.

On 02/10/2017 1:09 PM, sms wrote:
On 10/1/2017 8:42 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, October 1, 2017 at 6:26:20 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, October 1, 2017 at 2:57:28 AM UTC-4, James wrote:
On 01/10/17 12:46, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/30/2017 2:17 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, September 30, 2017 at 9:43:35 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman
wrote:

My old MTB is my commute bike, shared paths bit of gravel in places
tarmac
etc! Pads last thousands of miles literally years, the New MTB at
best a
few months! Worse a few red rides, they are toast.

That's true -- particularly with the resin organic pads.Â* You get
less
stops -- but they're really GOOD stops.
So before any long ride, be sure you've loaded your bike bag with
spares.


Nah, just fit different pads.Â* But if you did want to take spares, they
are very thin and light, so no inconvenience.

--
JS

Until like happened to my friend on slope on a crushed limestone
rail-trail he squeezed his disc brake lever in order to slow down a
bit andthe lever went all the way to the handlebar with NO effect on
his speed at all. "Look! NO BRAKES!"

For whatever reason he went through disc pads at quite a rate. I've
been told that disc brakes are for HARD application of the brake NOT
for modulating speed by repeated light applications which WILL wear
out pads quickly. Also, apparently stone dust or dust in general will
cause rapid wear of disc brake pads.

I prefer brakes that give advance warning that they are getting ready
to fail. YMMV

You have to watch pad adjustment with cable discs.Â* Hydraulic discs
self-adjust.Â* Both give you a warning before the pad or braking is
gone.Â* A "ticking" with Avid BB7s as the return spring hits the rotor.
On my hydraulics, I blew through a pad without noticing and was
braking with the aluminum carrier. No permanent rotor damage. The bike
still stopped but made noise.Â* But yes, pads wear much faster than rim
brake pads, particularly resin organic.Â* Metal pads are probably three
sets to one compared to rubber rim brake pads in year-round road
riding. The ratio changes in different settings, probably never for
the better.

The road bikes with discs all seem to use hydraulic discs with CF wheels.

There are two choices in new rides for someone of your statu

https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bikes/road-bikes/performance-road/domane/domane-slr/domane-slr-9-disc/p/1477500-2018


https://www.specialized.com/us/en/men/bikes/road/sworks-venge-vias-disc-etap/134294


I think you'll be happy with either choice.

Yeah, Jay, someone of your stature should have an S-Works Venge with
etap. I insist.

On 10/2/2017 10:09 AM, sms wrote:

https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bikes/road-bikes/performance-road/domane/domane-slr/domane-slr-9-disc/p/1477500-2018

We recently purchased a new non-Trek 2017 model. Surprisingly it was
$13,676, nearly $1200 more than this $12,499.99 Trek model and yet it
had hydraulic drum brakes for the rear and hydraulic disc brakes for the
front. Pad replacement is not easy on this model. But it has a lot of
safety features that you don't get on the Trek.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pKsZBaQykZ1r7p62vnJioUb8EG82vepii9FveTaShIU

On Monday, October 2, 2017 at 10:27:15 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 10/2/2017 10:09 AM, sms wrote:

https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bikes/road-bikes/performance-road/domane/domane-slr/domane-slr-9-disc/p/1477500-2018

We recently purchased a new non-Trek 2017 model. Surprisingly it was
$13,676, nearly $1200 more than this $12,499.99 Trek model and yet it
had hydraulic drum brakes for the rear and hydraulic disc brakes for the
front. Pad replacement is not easy on this model. But it has a lot of
safety features that you don't get on the Trek.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pKsZBaQykZ1r7p62vnJioUb8EG82vepii9FveTaShIU

I bet the Trek has better acceleration and stopping. BTW, you can get a new sub-$3K Domane with discs, which is a really great bike -- and it has fender mounts.

When the crazy springs sales roll around, I'm buying my wife a Trek eBike. And I'm going to get a $3K-ish Emonda to replace my SuperSix. Buy Trek. Keep the economy strong in Wisconsin. Andrew needs tax relief.

I was looking at the Canyon site -- a sub-$2K CF disc endurance bike in the same no-active-suspension niche as the Synapse. https://www.canyon.com/en-us/road/en...cf-sl-disc-7-0 Unbelievably, no fender mounts -- and nothing to which you could mount a fender (no brake bridge, no crown holes). Why would the citizens of a wet nation like Germany build an endurance bike with clearance for large tires and not put in a few 5mm bosses here and there for fenders. Unglaublich!

My buy-Canadian Norco Search that I got for $1K under MSRP (so, for $1,650) has discs and fender mounts, although it is a real gravel bike and kind of swampy sprinting -- but it has a nice flywheel effect once at speed. It's a lot of fun, really. It's my sole remaining plastic bike. I did a bunch of climbing on Saturday and Sunday in the rain through the West Hills, and the discs were brilliant! (affected speech from watching too many BBC shows). Like someone said, braking is limited by traction -- and there were a few hills where the brakes were locked, and I was still going. Such are the sled runs on that slippery old cement turned aggregate road surface from pre-WWI. My commute to work down Corbett has a nasty, slippery surface: http://harry.biketravellers.com/file...ortland8x6.jpg Time to put on the fat rubber.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Monday, October 2, 2017 at 10:16:26 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, October 2, 2017 at 10:27:15 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 10/2/2017 10:09 AM, sms wrote:

https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bikes/road-bikes/performance-road/domane/domane-slr/domane-slr-9-disc/p/1477500-2018

We recently purchased a new non-Trek 2017 model. Surprisingly it was
$13,676, nearly $1200 more than this $12,499.99 Trek model and yet it
had hydraulic drum brakes for the rear and hydraulic disc brakes for the
front. Pad replacement is not easy on this model. But it has a lot of
safety features that you don't get on the Trek.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pKsZBaQykZ1r7p62vnJioUb8EG82vepii9FveTaShIU

I bet the Trek has better acceleration and stopping. BTW, you can get a new sub-$3K Domane with discs, which is a really great bike -- and it has fender mounts.

When the crazy springs sales roll around, I'm buying my wife a Trek eBike.. And I'm going to get a $3K-ish Emonda to replace my SuperSix. Buy Trek. Keep the economy strong in Wisconsin. Andrew needs tax relief.

I was looking at the Canyon site -- a sub-$2K CF disc endurance bike in the same no-active-suspension niche as the Synapse. https://www.canyon.com/en-us/road/en...cf-sl-disc-7-0 Unbelievably, no fender mounts -- and nothing to which you could mount a fender (no brake bridge, no crown holes). Why would the citizens of a wet nation like Germany build an endurance bike with clearance for large tires and not put in a few 5mm bosses here and there for fenders. Unglaublich!

Fenders on road bikes is a US thing, like commuting with a road bike. Endurance bike is a normal road bike with a more relax geometry for longer rides.. Unglaublich, my ass.

Lou

On 10/2/2017 1:16 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, October 2, 2017 at 10:27:15 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 10/2/2017 10:09 AM, sms wrote:

https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bikes/road-bikes/performance-road/domane/domane-slr/domane-slr-9-disc/p/1477500-2018

We recently purchased a new non-Trek 2017 model. Surprisingly it was
$13,676, nearly $1200 more than this $12,499.99 Trek model and yet it
had hydraulic drum brakes for the rear and hydraulic disc brakes for the
front. Pad replacement is not easy on this model. But it has a lot of
safety features that you don't get on the Trek.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pKsZBaQykZ1r7p62vnJioUb8EG82vepii9FveTaShIU

I bet the Trek has better acceleration and stopping. BTW, you can get a new sub-$3K Domane with discs, which is a really great bike -- and it has fender mounts.

Wish that Trek would start giving away bicycles with the purchase of new
car again https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcaCA-d9v34.

When the crazy springs sales roll around, I'm buying my wife a Trek eBike. And I'm going to get a $3K-ish Emonda to replace my SuperSix. Buy Trek. Keep the economy strong in Wisconsin. Andrew needs tax relief.

I'd wait for the LUUTECH mid-drive conversion kit from Korea coming in
2018. If it's $1000 or so it'll be a bargain compared to a Trek eBike.
Better than the Bafang kits that are popular now.

On Monday, October 2, 2017 at 2:36:22 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, October 2, 2017 at 10:16:26 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, October 2, 2017 at 10:27:15 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 10/2/2017 10:09 AM, sms wrote:

https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bikes/road-bikes/performance-road/domane/domane-slr/domane-slr-9-disc/p/1477500-2018

We recently purchased a new non-Trek 2017 model. Surprisingly it was
$13,676, nearly $1200 more than this $12,499.99 Trek model and yet it
had hydraulic drum brakes for the rear and hydraulic disc brakes for the
front. Pad replacement is not easy on this model. But it has a lot of
safety features that you don't get on the Trek.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pKsZBaQykZ1r7p62vnJioUb8EG82vepii9FveTaShIU

I bet the Trek has better acceleration and stopping. BTW, you can get a new sub-$3K Domane with discs, which is a really great bike -- and it has fender mounts.

When the crazy springs sales roll around, I'm buying my wife a Trek eBike. And I'm going to get a $3K-ish Emonda to replace my SuperSix. Buy Trek. Keep the economy strong in Wisconsin. Andrew needs tax relief.

I was looking at the Canyon site -- a sub-$2K CF disc endurance bike in the same no-active-suspension niche as the Synapse. https://www.canyon.com/en-us/road/en...cf-sl-disc-7-0 Unbelievably, no fender mounts -- and nothing to which you could mount a fender (no brake bridge, no crown holes). Why would the citizens of a wet nation like Germany build an endurance bike with clearance for large tires and not put in a few 5mm bosses here and there for fenders. Unglaublich!

Fenders on road bikes is a US thing, like commuting with a road bike. Endurance bike is a normal road bike with a more relax geometry for longer rides. Unglaublich, my ass.

You'd be tossed out of a fast group ride during fall/winter/spring if you didn't have full cover fenders with a flap. http://stevetilford.com/2013/10/15/t...g-in-the-rain/

From the ladies at Sorella, including my good friend the old-chick national enduro champion, http://www.sorellaforte.com/club-rides/:

"And lastly, PLEASE install fenders on your bike! Bolted on, full fenders with mud flap extensions. Fenders keep you drier, especially your back side, but also keep from spraying the rider behind you. If it’s raining buckets and you don’t have fenders, you will be sent to the back of the pack."

The endurance bike or gravel bike has become the standard rain bike around here. No way I'm going to be miserable for 50-100 miles in the rain with no fenders. That's a crazy European thing.

Now, we do the spring races without fenders, which is like getting hit in the face with a fire hose for 60-70 miles. With glasses, I was racing by Braille.

-- Jay Beattie.