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Carbon Frame Reliability



 
 
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  #51  
Old July 8th 19, 11:43 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,231
Default Carbon Frame Reliability

On Monday, July 8, 2019 at 1:02:36 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, July 8, 2019 at 8:34:20 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 4:50:52 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, July 5, 2019 at 4:33:54 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
My friend just returned from Italy on a tour up the entire length of the east coast.

He visited the factory that built his and his wife's custom steel frames.

They also build carbon fiber frames and sponsor a Pro team. When Mike asked them about their reliability the company official that was showing them around said that he would not recommend ANYONE buying a carbon fiber frameset.

He said that pro teams replace their framesets generally each race because they cannot take the chance injuring a rider with a failure. This is a famous Italian marque that has made bicycles since 1957. So the opinion of the factory should bear some weight.


Tommasini began making bicycles in 1957. And they still make steel bikes. And offer custom frames. So we will assume your friend and his wife were riding Tommasini bikes and stopped at their factory in Grosseto, Italy. Grosseto is on the WEST coast of Italy 100 miles north of Rome. But you said their tour was on the EAST coast of Italy. Seems your story already has some facts wrong. But I understand wrong facts do not deter you folks..

I am sure Tommasini has sponsored pro teams in the past. So that part of your story is believable. And as pointed out by others, your story has a lot of pieces in it. Your friend told you what he heard from the tour guide at the Tommasini factory. Generally truth is best if it comes directly from the source. Not two or three interpreters in between. And of course how knowledgeable a tour guide is about the quality of carbon bikes is a question. I worked for a utility company. But I do not know how good our gas and electric repairmen were at their jobs. Are you going to ask the GM factory worker how accurate and credible the financial statements are?

Now I am assuming you have never ever worked for anyone in your entire life. I say that because most, all, people with current jobs, do not denigrate their own company during working hours. Yet you tell us that the company tour guide denigrated his own company's carbon bikes during a guided tour. That would be very similar to Andy Muzi's employees telling customers that Andy is an A Hole and is the worst bike mechanic in Madison or Wisconsin. And they had better run away from Andy's shop. Maybe that happens, but I doubt it.


Are you telling us that touring the east coast of Italy doesn't allow one to take a detour to visit Rome and Grossetto before returning to the east coast to see Venice?

At what point in reality do you start designing the tour plan for other people? As I stated - this man spent 30 years as a detective. Explain to us all how many years were you a federal detective? The level of ignorance of people like you is grossly understated even by me.


What factory? Why all the intrigue? Just tell us where he had his bike made. Any proud owner of a custom frame will tell you where it was made, assuming the decals aren't enough. What name is on his frame? I can tell you the names on all my friends' frames. Isn't this NCIS guy your friend?

-- Jay Beattie.


The comments in which a company said that the products they made were not considered by them to be the most reliable were told to me in confidence and that last person in the world I would tell that to is a lawyer.
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  #52  
Old July 9th 19, 12:06 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Carbon Frame Reliability

On Mon, 8 Jul 2019 08:38:47 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 6:14:57 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 7 Jul 2019 08:45:08 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 7:00:37 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 9:47:32 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/6/2019 9:18 PM, John B. wrote:

We might ask Frank whether he ever suggest that his engineering
students got their data from youtube. Or perhaps what his reaction
would have been if anyone had submitted a paper with a footnote saying
that "the values above were obtained from watching youtube".

One project I assigned annually was to research a variety of mechanical
and thermal properties of many different materials - various metal
alloys, a selection of plastics, a couple species of wood, etc.

No, YouTube would not have qualified as a source.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Another web source that is not usually accepted by professors is Wikipedia. It's astounding how many people read Wikipedia and watch You Tube and then pass themselves off as experts - sometimes even on You Tube.

Cheers

There are problems that people who have never been real-life engineers do not understand. That is that some materials, most especially resin based materials are extremely easy to not manufacture properly. Voids and sharp edges in areas that cannot be seen can lead to failures that Frank's "numbers" are completely unaware of.

When someone on YouTube has bisected a carbon handlebar and shows large areas of voids on the most expensive American made components that might give you reasons to think rather differently about the difference between engineering numbers and actual end product.


Err... Tom!
The first fiberglass/resin made boat seems to have been built by a guy
named Ray Greene in Toledo, Ohio, who built a fiberglass and
polyester sailboat in 1942.
Frank Thomas of the Shakespeare Sporting Goods Company conceived and
created the first graphite golf club shaft in 1969. Note: All graphite
shafts are made from layers of carbon fiber.
The first carbon fiber used in F1 racing cars was in the 1980's.

The point of this discourse is that using composite is not "new
science" but rather an old - 77 years - and established practice. Your
example of carbon fiber handle bars with defects is not an example of
any shortcomings of the material but rather an example of very shoddy
construction.

Like cheap carbon wheels, you buy cheap and you get cheap (and
shoddy). As my Grandmother used to say, "you pays your money and you
takes your choice".
--
cheers,

John B.


Again you demonstrate that it is impossible for you to have ever been an engineer. You cannot even fathom the strength to weight problem.


What in the world does strength to weight ratio have to do with the
fact that composite materials have been used successfully to build
such diversified objects as boats and golf clubs successfully and my
comments that voids in carbon fiber bicycle handle bars are not a
fault with carbon/epoxy composites but were due to faulty or shoddy
workmanship?
--
cheers,

John B.

  #53  
Old July 9th 19, 12:17 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Carbon Frame Reliability

On Mon, 08 Jul 2019 15:26:02 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

AMuzi writes:

On 7/8/2019 9:32 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
John B. writes:

On Sun, 7 Jul 2019 09:57:11 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 8:45:10 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 7:00:37 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 9:47:32 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/6/2019 9:18 PM, John B. wrote:

We might ask Frank whether he ever suggest that his engineering
students got their data from youtube. Or perhaps what his reaction
would have been if anyone had submitted a paper with a footnote saying
that "the values above were obtained from watching youtube".

One project I assigned annually was to research a variety of mechanical
and thermal properties of many different materials - various metal
alloys, a selection of plastics, a couple species of wood, etc.

No, YouTube would not have qualified as a source.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Another web source that is not usually accepted by professors is
Wikipedia. It's astounding how many people read Wikipedia and
watch You Tube and then pass themselves off as experts -
sometimes even on You Tube.

Cheers

There are problems that people who have never been real-life
engineers do not understand. That is that some materials, most
especially resin based materials are extremely easy to not
manufacture properly. Voids and sharp edges in areas that cannot be
seen can lead to failures that Frank's "numbers" are completely
unaware of.

When someone on YouTube has bisected a carbon handlebar and shows
large areas of voids on the most expensive American made components
that might give you reasons to think rather differently about the
difference between engineering numbers and actual end product.

You don't need to be an engineer to question your story about
disposable CF frames. The numbers don't add up. A factory would
have to produce a staggering amount of product to outfit a pro-team
for a single season. Each rider has maybe four to six bikes
(road/TT/climbing and spares), and if you threw those out after
every race or even stage race, that would over a hundred a year --
for every rider. The factory would go broke just supporting a
pro-team. And now bicycle sponsors are paying money rather than
just providing product, so that factory would be knocking out
hundreds of bikes and paying some huge amount of money to sponsor
the team. No Italian CF frame manufacturer that also makes one-off
steel frames for your friends could do it. And if so, what is the
name of the factory? We could easily fact check.

-- Jay Beattie.

In 2008 a German named Gunter Mai built a 3.2 kg bike and logged
over 20,000km on the machine over a couple years. Subsequently the
weight was further reduced to 2.7kg

Given that the lightest legal racing bike weighs 6.8 kg and a 3.2kg
bike has been ridden for 20,000 km with, apparently, no problems it
seems highly unlike that a bicycle manufacturer would built a 6.8kg
bike and than recommend that it be replaced after each race.

Not to mention that all those frames would have to *go* somewhere. Even
if they were supposed to be thrown out there would be a great temptation
for someone to make at least a little money on them. Where are all
these carbon racing frames, only ridden once, by a little old lady, up
Alpe d'Huez? I would expect every homeless person in Portland to have
at least one.


Pro teams (heck even some well organized amateur teams) have an annual
equipment sale at some large retailer. Been that way all my life.


The question is whether the number of frames thus available is
consistent with a new frame for every race. My guess is that some here
would have noticed.


Apparently the T de F consists of 20 - 22 teams composed of 8 riders
who ride for 21 days so that makes (call it 21 teams) 21 x 8 = 168
riders,for 21 days = 3,528 bicycles. One might be inclined to think
that someone would have noticed that :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

  #54  
Old July 9th 19, 12:32 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Carbon Frame Reliability

On 7/8/2019 7:17 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 08 Jul 2019 15:26:02 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

AMuzi writes:

On 7/8/2019 9:32 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
John B. writes:

On Sun, 7 Jul 2019 09:57:11 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 8:45:10 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 7:00:37 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 9:47:32 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/6/2019 9:18 PM, John B. wrote:

We might ask Frank whether he ever suggest that his engineering
students got their data from youtube. Or perhaps what his reaction
would have been if anyone had submitted a paper with a footnote saying
that "the values above were obtained from watching youtube".

One project I assigned annually was to research a variety of mechanical
and thermal properties of many different materials - various metal
alloys, a selection of plastics, a couple species of wood, etc.

No, YouTube would not have qualified as a source.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Another web source that is not usually accepted by professors is
Wikipedia. It's astounding how many people read Wikipedia and
watch You Tube and then pass themselves off as experts -
sometimes even on You Tube.

Cheers

There are problems that people who have never been real-life
engineers do not understand. That is that some materials, most
especially resin based materials are extremely easy to not
manufacture properly. Voids and sharp edges in areas that cannot be
seen can lead to failures that Frank's "numbers" are completely
unaware of.

When someone on YouTube has bisected a carbon handlebar and shows
large areas of voids on the most expensive American made components
that might give you reasons to think rather differently about the
difference between engineering numbers and actual end product.

You don't need to be an engineer to question your story about
disposable CF frames. The numbers don't add up. A factory would
have to produce a staggering amount of product to outfit a pro-team
for a single season. Each rider has maybe four to six bikes
(road/TT/climbing and spares), and if you threw those out after
every race or even stage race, that would over a hundred a year --
for every rider. The factory would go broke just supporting a
pro-team. And now bicycle sponsors are paying money rather than
just providing product, so that factory would be knocking out
hundreds of bikes and paying some huge amount of money to sponsor
the team. No Italian CF frame manufacturer that also makes one-off
steel frames for your friends could do it. And if so, what is the
name of the factory? We could easily fact check.

-- Jay Beattie.

In 2008 a German named Gunter Mai built a 3.2 kg bike and logged
over 20,000km on the machine over a couple years. Subsequently the
weight was further reduced to 2.7kg

Given that the lightest legal racing bike weighs 6.8 kg and a 3.2kg
bike has been ridden for 20,000 km with, apparently, no problems it
seems highly unlike that a bicycle manufacturer would built a 6.8kg
bike and than recommend that it be replaced after each race.

Not to mention that all those frames would have to *go* somewhere. Even
if they were supposed to be thrown out there would be a great temptation
for someone to make at least a little money on them. Where are all
these carbon racing frames, only ridden once, by a little old lady, up
Alpe d'Huez? I would expect every homeless person in Portland to have
at least one.


Pro teams (heck even some well organized amateur teams) have an annual
equipment sale at some large retailer. Been that way all my life.


The question is whether the number of frames thus available is
consistent with a new frame for every race. My guess is that some here
would have noticed.


Apparently the T de F consists of 20 - 22 teams composed of 8 riders
who ride for 21 days so that makes (call it 21 teams) 21 x 8 = 168
riders,for 21 days = 3,528 bicycles. One might be inclined to think
that someone would have noticed that :-)


I can imagine some brilliant entrepreneur swinging a deal to buy those
in bulk, then sell them to aficionados as high performance collectables.
He could make a tidy sum.

It would require someone astute enough to know that the opportunity
exists - and even most dedicated cyclists don't realize the number of
such frames! He'd need to be a likeable person, skilled in diplomacy and
business, knowledgeable regarding international trade and finance; a
person of high intelligence overall.

He might even clear enough money to buy half a bag of groceries without
complaining!

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #55  
Old July 9th 19, 01:21 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Carbon Frame Reliability

On Mon, 08 Jul 2019 15:23:56 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Mon, 8 Jul 2019 13:58:21 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 7/8/2019 12:13 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Drivel:
"Ants Can Support 5,000 Times Their Body Weight Before Losing Their
Heads"
https://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/5970/20140210/ants-support-5-000-times-body-weight-before-losing-heads.htm
A 6.8Kg bicycle in the Tour de France is expected to support a 65kg
rider. That's only about 10 times the weight of the bicycle. Perhaps
the next generation of bicycle design might need some help from the
ants. Or, dump carbon fiber and switch to carbon nanotube and
graphene:
"Graphene bicycles - the potential future of composites"
https://www.bikeradar.com/features/graphene-bicycles-the-potential-future-of-composites/
Carbon nanotubes might be 20 times stronger than carbon fiber, but the
ants still do it better.


And skeleton bike frames! The wave of the future!

Now I feel bad about being a kid who burned ants with a magnifying
glass. I should have harvested them and saved them up!


The math is easy enough. How many ants would it take to support a
bicycle rider? Worker ants weigh 1 to 5 mg and can carry 5 to 25
grams each at 5000x their weight. Tour de France riders are on the
light side and typically weigh about 65 Kg.
65Kg / 5 grams/ant = 13,000 ants
65Kg / 25 grams/ant = 2,600 ants
Now, all we need is some way to equally distribute the load, and we
have a bicycle proxy that can carry a rider across the finish line at
the speed of an ant. Some training may be needed to get the ants to
all move in the same direction and to increase their rate of travel to
racing speeds.


I was sitting on the front porch yesterday and saw several ants toting
a dead bug that was probably 30 times their size. Apparently they were
headed home with their booty but unfortunately they came to a spot
where a number of other ants had apparently traveled leaving their
scent spores and became confused, I guess, as they started going round
in circles so the Tour de Ant would have to have a very well defines
scent trail to prevent confusion :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

  #56  
Old July 9th 19, 01:23 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Carbon Frame Reliability

On Mon, 8 Jul 2019 19:32:05 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 7/8/2019 7:17 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 08 Jul 2019 15:26:02 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

AMuzi writes:

On 7/8/2019 9:32 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
John B. writes:

On Sun, 7 Jul 2019 09:57:11 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 8:45:10 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 7:00:37 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 9:47:32 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/6/2019 9:18 PM, John B. wrote:

We might ask Frank whether he ever suggest that his engineering
students got their data from youtube. Or perhaps what his reaction
would have been if anyone had submitted a paper with a footnote saying
that "the values above were obtained from watching youtube".

One project I assigned annually was to research a variety of mechanical
and thermal properties of many different materials - various metal
alloys, a selection of plastics, a couple species of wood, etc.

No, YouTube would not have qualified as a source.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Another web source that is not usually accepted by professors is
Wikipedia. It's astounding how many people read Wikipedia and
watch You Tube and then pass themselves off as experts -
sometimes even on You Tube.

Cheers

There are problems that people who have never been real-life
engineers do not understand. That is that some materials, most
especially resin based materials are extremely easy to not
manufacture properly. Voids and sharp edges in areas that cannot be
seen can lead to failures that Frank's "numbers" are completely
unaware of.

When someone on YouTube has bisected a carbon handlebar and shows
large areas of voids on the most expensive American made components
that might give you reasons to think rather differently about the
difference between engineering numbers and actual end product.

You don't need to be an engineer to question your story about
disposable CF frames. The numbers don't add up. A factory would
have to produce a staggering amount of product to outfit a pro-team
for a single season. Each rider has maybe four to six bikes
(road/TT/climbing and spares), and if you threw those out after
every race or even stage race, that would over a hundred a year --
for every rider. The factory would go broke just supporting a
pro-team. And now bicycle sponsors are paying money rather than
just providing product, so that factory would be knocking out
hundreds of bikes and paying some huge amount of money to sponsor
the team. No Italian CF frame manufacturer that also makes one-off
steel frames for your friends could do it. And if so, what is the
name of the factory? We could easily fact check.

-- Jay Beattie.

In 2008 a German named Gunter Mai built a 3.2 kg bike and logged
over 20,000km on the machine over a couple years. Subsequently the
weight was further reduced to 2.7kg

Given that the lightest legal racing bike weighs 6.8 kg and a 3.2kg
bike has been ridden for 20,000 km with, apparently, no problems it
seems highly unlike that a bicycle manufacturer would built a 6.8kg
bike and than recommend that it be replaced after each race.

Not to mention that all those frames would have to *go* somewhere. Even
if they were supposed to be thrown out there would be a great temptation
for someone to make at least a little money on them. Where are all
these carbon racing frames, only ridden once, by a little old lady, up
Alpe d'Huez? I would expect every homeless person in Portland to have
at least one.


Pro teams (heck even some well organized amateur teams) have an annual
equipment sale at some large retailer. Been that way all my life.

The question is whether the number of frames thus available is
consistent with a new frame for every race. My guess is that some here
would have noticed.


Apparently the T de F consists of 20 - 22 teams composed of 8 riders
who ride for 21 days so that makes (call it 21 teams) 21 x 8 = 168
riders,for 21 days = 3,528 bicycles. One might be inclined to think
that someone would have noticed that :-)


I can imagine some brilliant entrepreneur swinging a deal to buy those
in bulk, then sell them to aficionados as high performance collectables.
He could make a tidy sum.

It would require someone astute enough to know that the opportunity
exists - and even most dedicated cyclists don't realize the number of
such frames! He'd need to be a likeable person, skilled in diplomacy and
business, knowledgeable regarding international trade and finance; a
person of high intelligence overall.

He might even clear enough money to buy half a bag of groceries without
complaining!


Don't forget the $4,000 bicycle :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

  #57  
Old July 9th 19, 08:09 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 547
Default Carbon Frame Reliability

On Mon, 8 Jul 2019 15:43:54 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Monday, July 8, 2019 at 1:02:36 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, July 8, 2019 at 8:34:20 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 4:50:52 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, July 5, 2019 at 4:33:54 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
My friend just returned from Italy on a tour up the entire length of the east coast.

He visited the factory that built his and his wife's custom steel frames.

They also build carbon fiber frames and sponsor a Pro team. When Mike asked them about their reliability the company official that was showing them around said that he would not recommend ANYONE buying a carbon fiber frameset.

He said that pro teams replace their framesets generally each race because they cannot take the chance injuring a rider with a failure. This is a famous Italian marque that has made bicycles since 1957. So the opinion of the factory should bear some weight.


Tommasini began making bicycles in 1957. And they still make steel bikes. And offer custom frames. So we will assume your friend and his wife were riding Tommasini bikes and stopped at their factory in Grosseto, Italy. Grosseto is on the WEST coast of Italy 100 miles north of Rome. But you said their tour was on the EAST coast of Italy. Seems your story already has some facts wrong. But I understand wrong facts do not deter you folks.

I am sure Tommasini has sponsored pro teams in the past. So that part of your story is believable. And as pointed out by others, your story has a lot of pieces in it. Your friend told you what he heard from the tour guide at the Tommasini factory. Generally truth is best if it comes directly from the source. Not two or three interpreters in between. And of course how knowledgeable a tour guide is about the quality of carbon bikes is a question. I worked for a utility company. But I do not know how good our gas and electric repairmen were at their jobs. Are you going to ask the GM factory worker how accurate and credible the financial statements are?

Now I am assuming you have never ever worked for anyone in your entire life. I say that because most, all, people with current jobs, do not denigrate their own company during working hours. Yet you tell us that the company tour guide denigrated his own company's carbon bikes during a guided tour. That would be very similar to Andy Muzi's employees telling customers that Andy is an A Hole and is the worst bike mechanic in Madison or Wisconsin. And they had better run away from Andy's shop. Maybe that happens, but I doubt it.

Are you telling us that touring the east coast of Italy doesn't allow one to take a detour to visit Rome and Grossetto before returning to the east coast to see Venice?

At what point in reality do you start designing the tour plan for other people? As I stated - this man spent 30 years as a detective. Explain to us all how many years were you a federal detective? The level of ignorance of people like you is grossly understated even by me.


What factory? Why all the intrigue? Just tell us where he had his bike made. Any proud owner of a custom frame will tell you where it was made, assuming the decals aren't enough. What name is on his frame? I can tell you the names on all my friends' frames. Isn't this NCIS guy your friend?

-- Jay Beattie.


The comments in which a company said that the products they made were not considered by them to be the most reliable were told to me in confidence and that last person in the world I would tell that to is a lawyer.



An interesting "out" for someone caught lying. Just say, "Oh! that is
classified", and everything will be O.K.

I don't know about civilian life but in the USAF to even admit to
knowing that certain classified information existed could be deemed a
violation of the regulations.

--

Cheers,

John B.
  #58  
Old July 10th 19, 08:45 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,231
Default Carbon Frame Reliability

On Tuesday, July 9, 2019 at 12:09:12 AM UTC-7, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 8 Jul 2019 15:43:54 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Monday, July 8, 2019 at 1:02:36 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, July 8, 2019 at 8:34:20 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 4:50:52 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, July 5, 2019 at 4:33:54 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
My friend just returned from Italy on a tour up the entire length of the east coast.

He visited the factory that built his and his wife's custom steel frames.

They also build carbon fiber frames and sponsor a Pro team. When Mike asked them about their reliability the company official that was showing them around said that he would not recommend ANYONE buying a carbon fiber frameset.

He said that pro teams replace their framesets generally each race because they cannot take the chance injuring a rider with a failure. This is a famous Italian marque that has made bicycles since 1957. So the opinion of the factory should bear some weight.


Tommasini began making bicycles in 1957. And they still make steel bikes. And offer custom frames. So we will assume your friend and his wife were riding Tommasini bikes and stopped at their factory in Grosseto, Italy. Grosseto is on the WEST coast of Italy 100 miles north of Rome. But you said their tour was on the EAST coast of Italy. Seems your story already has some facts wrong. But I understand wrong facts do not deter you folks.

I am sure Tommasini has sponsored pro teams in the past. So that part of your story is believable. And as pointed out by others, your story has a lot of pieces in it. Your friend told you what he heard from the tour guide at the Tommasini factory. Generally truth is best if it comes directly from the source. Not two or three interpreters in between. And of course how knowledgeable a tour guide is about the quality of carbon bikes is a question. I worked for a utility company. But I do not know how good our gas and electric repairmen were at their jobs. Are you going to ask the GM factory worker how accurate and credible the financial statements are?

Now I am assuming you have never ever worked for anyone in your entire life. I say that because most, all, people with current jobs, do not denigrate their own company during working hours. Yet you tell us that the company tour guide denigrated his own company's carbon bikes during a guided tour. That would be very similar to Andy Muzi's employees telling customers that Andy is an A Hole and is the worst bike mechanic in Madison or Wisconsin. And they had better run away from Andy's shop. Maybe that happens, but I doubt it.

Are you telling us that touring the east coast of Italy doesn't allow one to take a detour to visit Rome and Grossetto before returning to the east coast to see Venice?

At what point in reality do you start designing the tour plan for other people? As I stated - this man spent 30 years as a detective. Explain to us all how many years were you a federal detective? The level of ignorance of people like you is grossly understated even by me.

What factory? Why all the intrigue? Just tell us where he had his bike made. Any proud owner of a custom frame will tell you where it was made, assuming the decals aren't enough. What name is on his frame? I can tell you the names on all my friends' frames. Isn't this NCIS guy your friend?

-- Jay Beattie.


The comments in which a company said that the products they made were not considered by them to be the most reliable were told to me in confidence and that last person in the world I would tell that to is a lawyer.



An interesting "out" for someone caught lying. Just say, "Oh! that is
classified", and everything will be O.K.

I don't know about civilian life but in the USAF to even admit to
knowing that certain classified information existed could be deemed a
violation of the regulations.

--

Cheers,

John B.


Now you going to tell us that you were in the Air Force? Or that you have even an idea of what security protocols are in the military?
  #59  
Old July 11th 19, 01:14 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 547
Default Carbon Frame Reliability

On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 12:45:24 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Tuesday, July 9, 2019 at 12:09:12 AM UTC-7, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 8 Jul 2019 15:43:54 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Monday, July 8, 2019 at 1:02:36 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, July 8, 2019 at 8:34:20 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 4:50:52 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, July 5, 2019 at 4:33:54 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
My friend just returned from Italy on a tour up the entire length of the east coast.

He visited the factory that built his and his wife's custom steel frames.

They also build carbon fiber frames and sponsor a Pro team. When Mike asked them about their reliability the company official that was showing them around said that he would not recommend ANYONE buying a carbon fiber frameset.

He said that pro teams replace their framesets generally each race because they cannot take the chance injuring a rider with a failure. This is a famous Italian marque that has made bicycles since 1957. So the opinion of the factory should bear some weight.


Tommasini began making bicycles in 1957. And they still make steel bikes. And offer custom frames. So we will assume your friend and his wife were riding Tommasini bikes and stopped at their factory in Grosseto, Italy. Grosseto is on the WEST coast of Italy 100 miles north of Rome. But you said their tour was on the EAST coast of Italy. Seems your story already has some facts wrong. But I understand wrong facts do not deter you folks.

I am sure Tommasini has sponsored pro teams in the past. So that part of your story is believable. And as pointed out by others, your story has a lot of pieces in it. Your friend told you what he heard from the tour guide at the Tommasini factory. Generally truth is best if it comes directly from the source. Not two or three interpreters in between. And of course how knowledgeable a tour guide is about the quality of carbon bikes is a question. I worked for a utility company. But I do not know how good our gas and electric repairmen were at their jobs. Are you going to ask the GM factory worker how accurate and credible the financial statements are?

Now I am assuming you have never ever worked for anyone in your entire life. I say that because most, all, people with current jobs, do not denigrate their own company during working hours. Yet you tell us that the company tour guide denigrated his own company's carbon bikes during a guided tour. That would be very similar to Andy Muzi's employees telling customers that Andy is an A Hole and is the worst bike mechanic in Madison or Wisconsin. And they had better run away from Andy's shop. Maybe that happens, but I doubt it.

Are you telling us that touring the east coast of Italy doesn't allow one to take a detour to visit Rome and Grossetto before returning to the east coast to see Venice?

At what point in reality do you start designing the tour plan for other people? As I stated - this man spent 30 years as a detective. Explain to us all how many years were you a federal detective? The level of ignorance of people like you is grossly understated even by me.

What factory? Why all the intrigue? Just tell us where he had his bike made. Any proud owner of a custom frame will tell you where it was made, assuming the decals aren't enough. What name is on his frame? I can tell you the names on all my friends' frames. Isn't this NCIS guy your friend?

-- Jay Beattie.

The comments in which a company said that the products they made were not considered by them to be the most reliable were told to me in confidence and that last person in the world I would tell that to is a lawyer.



An interesting "out" for someone caught lying. Just say, "Oh! that is
classified", and everything will be O.K.

I don't know about civilian life but in the USAF to even admit to
knowing that certain classified information existed could be deemed a
violation of the regulations.

--

Cheers,

John B.


Now you going to tell us that you were in the Air Force? Or that you have even an idea of what security protocols are in the military?



Well yes, I was in the Air Force. Why ever not. After all people of my
generations still rertained at least a shred or two of patriatism
--

Cheers,

John B.
  #60  
Old July 11th 19, 01:18 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 547
Default Carbon Frame Reliability

On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 12:45:24 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Tuesday, July 9, 2019 at 12:09:12 AM UTC-7, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 8 Jul 2019 15:43:54 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Monday, July 8, 2019 at 1:02:36 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, July 8, 2019 at 8:34:20 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 4:50:52 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, July 5, 2019 at 4:33:54 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
My friend just returned from Italy on a tour up the entire length of the east coast.

He visited the factory that built his and his wife's custom steel frames.

They also build carbon fiber frames and sponsor a Pro team. When Mike asked them about their reliability the company official that was showing them around said that he would not recommend ANYONE buying a carbon fiber frameset.

He said that pro teams replace their framesets generally each race because they cannot take the chance injuring a rider with a failure. This is a famous Italian marque that has made bicycles since 1957. So the opinion of the factory should bear some weight.


Tommasini began making bicycles in 1957. And they still make steel bikes. And offer custom frames. So we will assume your friend and his wife were riding Tommasini bikes and stopped at their factory in Grosseto, Italy. Grosseto is on the WEST coast of Italy 100 miles north of Rome. But you said their tour was on the EAST coast of Italy. Seems your story already has some facts wrong. But I understand wrong facts do not deter you folks.

I am sure Tommasini has sponsored pro teams in the past. So that part of your story is believable. And as pointed out by others, your story has a lot of pieces in it. Your friend told you what he heard from the tour guide at the Tommasini factory. Generally truth is best if it comes directly from the source. Not two or three interpreters in between. And of course how knowledgeable a tour guide is about the quality of carbon bikes is a question. I worked for a utility company. But I do not know how good our gas and electric repairmen were at their jobs. Are you going to ask the GM factory worker how accurate and credible the financial statements are?

Now I am assuming you have never ever worked for anyone in your entire life. I say that because most, all, people with current jobs, do not denigrate their own company during working hours. Yet you tell us that the company tour guide denigrated his own company's carbon bikes during a guided tour. That would be very similar to Andy Muzi's employees telling customers that Andy is an A Hole and is the worst bike mechanic in Madison or Wisconsin. And they had better run away from Andy's shop. Maybe that happens, but I doubt it.

Are you telling us that touring the east coast of Italy doesn't allow one to take a detour to visit Rome and Grossetto before returning to the east coast to see Venice?

At what point in reality do you start designing the tour plan for other people? As I stated - this man spent 30 years as a detective. Explain to us all how many years were you a federal detective? The level of ignorance of people like you is grossly understated even by me.

What factory? Why all the intrigue? Just tell us where he had his bike made. Any proud owner of a custom frame will tell you where it was made, assuming the decals aren't enough. What name is on his frame? I can tell you the names on all my friends' frames. Isn't this NCIS guy your friend?

-- Jay Beattie.

The comments in which a company said that the products they made were not considered by them to be the most reliable were told to me in confidence and that last person in the world I would tell that to is a lawyer.



An interesting "out" for someone caught lying. Just say, "Oh! that is
classified", and everything will be O.K.

I don't know about civilian life but in the USAF to even admit to
knowing that certain classified information existed could be deemed a
violation of the regulations.

--

Cheers,

John B.


Now you going to tell us that you were in the Air Force? Or that you have even an idea of what security protocols are in the military?


Well yes, I was in the A.F. for twenty years. Why do you not believe
it? After all you at 75 are certainly old enough to remember all those
cowards that fled to Canada to avoid having to go in the service.
Well, I didn't.
--

Cheers,

John B.
 




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