More silly questions about a commuter bike

Thanks to everyone who responded to my previous thread.
It take me a while to get round to things, but my old
mountain bike's gearing started playing up again which got
me back to thinking a bit more closely about a
replacement. My requirements are a more upright riding
position than a mountain bike (ie so it doesn't hurt my
neck to watch the road ahead.), minimum 5-speed hub gears
and ideally drum/hub brakes as well, but this is not as
important. I will also need some kind of lock,
puncture-resistant tyres, mudguards, chainguard, and some
dynamo lights, which could be bought separately but it
seems attactive to me to get it all in one go if such a
machine exists and it is value for money.

I have done a lot of Google-ing and put together an
eclectic shortlist ticking as many of these boxes as
possible, which mixes some "hybrid" bikes like the
Halfords Carerra Subway 8, some in the middle
like the Gazella Impala, and at the very traditional end,
Pashley Princess Sovereign.

Here begins the silly questions:

1. I'm a bit confused about frame sizes. I am approx 6'3"
tall and wear 34" leg trousers. There seems to be some
discrepancy on the web as to whether a frame size is from
the bottom braket up to where the crossbar intersects, or
whether you measure right up to where the seatpost is
inserted. If it is the former, my current bike is 20", if it
is the latter, more like 22", and feels about the right
size for me. Can anyone advise me?

2. I tried sitting on a Carerra Subway 8 today in
Halfords, which I was told was the 20" frame version, and
while the saddle went high enough, my position was not much
different to my mountain bike ie leaning forward a lot, not
able to look ahead in the road with my neck straight. The
assistant did suggest I could use a stem extender to raise
the handlebars further, is this a sensible idea?

3.
http://www.stationcycles.co.uk/Sales...es/esprit.html
shows this bike as being available in 49, 53, 57, 61, and
66cm frames. Converting that to inches gives a range of
approx 19" to 26", whcih sounds much larger than all the
other bikes I've looked at. Is is something about the
style of bike or am I missing some other vital piece of
information?

4. Any opinions on whether it would be better value to get
an expensive bike with everything I need, or to buy a
cheaper bike and pay for things like mudguards etc
sepeartely? The Gazelle Esprit for example has pretty much
everything (not sure what the tyres are like, but it even
includes a lock and dynamo lights), or I could by the
Halfords one and spend the £150-odd I save on the missing
accessories.

5. Just by looking on website images I find it hard to tell
sometimes (apart from the obviously very traditional bikes
like Pashleys) what kind of riding position I would have. Is
it safe to assume that a bike described as a "hybrid" will
be somewhere in the middle in terms of riding position?
Obviously anything I want to buy I will try out, but as my
shortlist is not currently very short (!!) I don't really
have time to try out dozens of bikes at different places
only to find a lot of them are nothing like what I want.

Sorry this is rather long and rambling, any advice
gratefully received. Thanks!

Tom Cumming wrote:

Here begins the silly questions:

1. I'm a bit confused about frame sizes. I am approx 6'3"
tall and wear 34" leg trousers. There seems to be some
discrepancy on the web as to whether a frame size is from
the bottom braket up to where the crossbar intersects, or
whether you measure right up to where the seatpost is
inserted. If it is the former, my current bike is 20", if it
is the latter, more like 22", and feels about the right
size for me. Can anyone advise me?

Once upon a time, in a galaxy far from here, all bicycle manufacturers used
the same basic geometry, and a 22" bike from one manufacturer would be more
or less the same size as a 22" bike from another. This is no longer true. A
17" bike from one manufacturer may now be bigger than a 22" from another.

Once upon a time all top tubes were horizontal, and frames were measured
along the seat tube from the centre of the bottom bracket to the centre of
the top tube. This is no longer true. Now most top tubes slope to one
degree or another, and the quoted size may be along the seat tube from the
centre of the bottom bracket to the centre (or top) of the actual top tube,
or to a 'virtual' top tube which may be horizontal and may not, or to the
top of the seat tube, or something else entirely.

There is no substitute for trying the actual bike.

2. I tried sitting on a Carerra Subway 8 today in
Halfords, which I was told was the 20" frame version, and
while the saddle went high enough, my position was not much
different to my mountain bike ie leaning forward a lot, not
able to look ahead in the road with my neck straight. The
assistant did suggest I could use a stem extender to raise
the handlebars further, is this a sensible idea?

Ish. I'd be inclined to look at a shorter, steeper stem, probably on a
larger frame size. There are good biomechanical reasons for the
leaning-forward body position on diamond frame bikes - i.e. it's more
efficient - but if this isn't what you want it isn't, and a Dutch-style
bike may suit you better.

3.
http://www.stationcycles.co.uk/Sales...es/esprit.html
shows this bike as being available in 49, 53, 57, 61, and
66cm frames. Converting that to inches gives a range of
approx 19" to 26", whcih sounds much larger than all the
other bikes I've looked at. Is is something about the
style of bike or am I missing some other vital piece of
information?

Yes. The vital bit of information is that frame sizes are not comparable
between different designs of bike. In this case the seat tube is much more
rakes than on a typical road bike, so needs to be somewhat longer.

4. Any opinions on whether it would be better value to get
an expensive bike with everything I need, or to buy a
cheaper bike and pay for things like mudguards etc
sepeartely? The Gazelle Esprit for example has pretty much
everything (not sure what the tyres are like, but it even
includes a lock and dynamo lights), or I could by the
Halfords one and spend the £150-odd I save on the missing
accessories.

On the whole, quality for quality, you'll spend less on one that comes with
everything you want; furthermore, you'll be reasonably confident that
everything will fit together.

5. Just by looking on website images I find it hard to tell
sometimes (apart from the obviously very traditional bikes
like Pashleys) what kind of riding position I would have. Is
it safe to assume that a bike described as a "hybrid" will
be somewhere in the middle in terms of riding position?

'Hybrid' is a name that doesn't really mean anything any more. It started
out by meaning mountain bikes adapted to ride on the road, but as mountain
bike designs have become progressively more specialised this is really no
longer true, and it now means virtually any bike with flat handlebars and
non-knobbly tyres. Some of these have very steep angles and some very
relaxed angles.

On the whole if the seat tube angle is in the 72 to 74 degree range, you'll
have a torso-leant-forward position (or else you'll be bloody
uncomfortable) and if you have a seat tube in the 63 to 67 degree range
you'll have a spine vertical riding position. Effectively you are rotating
the body around the bottom bracket, while keeping more or less the same
angle between the torso and the legs.

From what you describe it might also be worth your while looking at a
less-extreme recumbent.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other
;; languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and riffle their
;; pockets for new vocabulary -- James D. Nicoll

Simon Brooke wrote:
Tom Cumming wrote:

3.
http://www.stationcycles.co.uk/Sales...es/esprit.html
shows this bike as being available in 49, 53, 57, 61, and
66cm frames. Converting that to inches gives a range of
approx 19" to 26", whcih sounds much larger than all the
other bikes I've looked at. Is is something about the
style of bike or am I missing some other vital piece of
information?

Yes. The vital bit of information is that frame sizes are not comparable
between different designs of bike. In this case the seat tube is much more
rakes than on a typical road bike, so needs to be somewhat longer.

The above bike comes with a hub dynamo which is far superior to a tyre
wall dynamo. To upgrade a bike with a hub dynamo would really mean
replacing the front wheel, which would over 100ukp.

I am guessing, but the lock could be one of those ones which just locks
the rear wheel to stop it being ridden. You would need another lock in
addition to lock the bike to something solid.



4. Any opinions on whether it would be better value to get
an expensive bike with everything I need, or to buy a
cheaper bike and pay for things like mudguards etc
sepeartely? The Gazelle Esprit for example has pretty much
everything (not sure what the tyres are like, but it even
includes a lock and dynamo lights), or I could by the
Halfords one and spend the £150-odd I save on the missing
accessories.

On the whole, quality for quality, you'll spend less on one that comes with
everything you want; furthermore, you'll be reasonably confident that
everything will fit together.

The extras will also match the rest of the bike, and if something does
go wrong, the guarentee will cover the whole bike.

Martin (Looking forward to getting wet on tomorrows comute).

Tom Cumming writtificated Stuff and I replied:

This might help a bit with the frame sizing:

Frame Sizing:

What is important in sizing a bike is:
(1) Reach to the pedals - way too much or too little and you will pick up
injuries. Slightly out and you lose a lot of power.
(2) Reach to the bars - how upright/stretched out you want them to be.

Back in the day the top tube was horizontal with the ground and seatposts
were short so there wasn't much scope for adjusting the reach to the
pedals. Top tubes were all the same length between frame sizes and reach
to the bars was altered by whacking in a different stem length. It made
sense to size frames by seat tube length.

When they started to put longer top tubes in bigger frames they continued
with the old frame sizing. Everyone knew the sizing system and if the
top tube was a teensy bit longer/shorter you'd just whack in a new stem.
If the seat tube was too high you were buggered. Well, bollocked. Every
time you stopped. Ouch.

THEN CAME A GENIUS INNOVATION

Compact frames, with a sloping top tube, gave a stiffer rear triangle
that didn't flex so much. The sloping top tube didn't mash yer spuds so
often. A longer seatpost in a shorter seat tube allowed for a much
greater range of adjustment. A manufacturer need make, and a shop need
stock, only three or four sizes instead of five or six.

Now only the short and the tall need worry whether the seat tube is long
enough - the seatpost has about a foots worth of adjustment in it. For
all but those on the edge of the bell curve the main measurement they
need to worry about is the reach to the bars - longer for a more aero
position (or people with proportionally longer arms) and shorter for an
upright position more suited to looking around, checking over yer
shoulder for traffic etc.

Unfortunately frame sizing is still stuck on the old 'how long is the
seat tube', but it's worse than that as there are many different ways to
measure them:

From centre of the bottom bracket to:
- top of seat tube
- where the centre of the top tube meets the seat tube (also known as
centre to centre)
- where the top of the top tube meets the seat tube (also known as centre
to top)
- where the centre of the top tube would meet the seat tube if the top
tube was horizontal rather than sloping (i.e. to keep frame sizing
consistent with old style frames. Also known as centre to centre, but
it's different from the other centre to centre)
- where the top of the top tube would meet the seat tube if the top tube
was horizontal rather than sloping (also know as... well, you get it)
- etc

AND, just to make things REALLY impossible to get, bicycle frame geometry
is now pretty varied. Yer basic road bike is pretty 'normal', but
mountain bikers often need to shift their bodyweight backwards. To stop
the saddle getting in the way they often lower it w-a-y down which means
a shorter seat tube. This means sizing between different bikes from the
same manufacturer is radically different.

If you can't sit on the bike the only way to know is to look at the frame
geometry to find the size that gives the correct reach to the bars. It
is possible that the frame is not suited to your purpose. Most people
want sporty bikes, even if they're not going to do sporty riding, and the
market responds. Many frames have a fairly sporty geometry with long top
tubes, low bars etc. If you want a more relaxed geometry you'll be best
of going for an out-and-out town-style bike rather than a hybrid based
around a mountain bike or a road bike design. Sporty designs will have a
long top tube and short stem. A town bike will have a shorter top tube
and a longer stem. You can swap stems and raise bars but it doesn't
always prodice satisfactory results.

Tom Cumming wrote:

My requirements are a more upright riding
position than a mountain bike (ie so it doesn't hurt my
neck to watch the road ahead.), minimum 5-speed hub gears

2. I tried sitting on a Carerra Subway 8 today in
Halfords, which I was told was the 20" frame version, and

Not a bad bike at all. Uses the premium version of the
Shimano Nexus hub - better bearings. However, the
20" is the larger of the two frame sizes, and at six foot
I wouldn't mind it being slightly bigger. You would
probably find it OK, especially if you can get them to
swap the 'suspension' seatpost for a rigid one: the standard
stem is also adjustable, so can bring the bars up and back.
Be prepared to budget for a rebuild of the rear wheel if you
carry any real weight. You would also need to add rack and
dynamo.

Looking back at your earlier thread, you're in Cambridge -
while I don't know the shops there, it may be worth your
while taking a trip to London and Bikefix on Lamb's Conduit
Street. A range of bikes, including the Fahrradmanufaktur
range (the T100 is similar in many ways to the Subway 8,
but includes the rack and hub dynamo that you'd like), and
if you fancy the idea of trying a recumbent as suggested by
another poster they could sort that out too.

(www.bikefix.co.uk - direct link to the T100 is filled with
session ID stuff)


4. Any opinions on whether it would be better value to get
an expensive bike with everything I need,

The expensive bike is better value *if* what it's supplied with
is what you want.

When I was buying a work bike last summer, I went for the
Carrera not the Fahrradmanufaktur for precisely this reason:
the T100 had racks (but not Tubus), a better saddle (but not
Brooks) and getting the cheaper bike allowed me room in
the budget for expensive accessories.

However, I paid quite a bit less than the current price of the
Subway 8, and the T100 is showing as cheaper than I
remember, so I might decide differently if I was buying now.

John

wrote in message
...
Tom Cumming wrote:

My requirements are a more upright riding
position than a mountain bike (ie so it doesn't hurt my
neck to watch the road ahead.), minimum 5-speed hub gears

You can still get a mountain bike, just one with a short top tube and short
/ high rise stem. OTOH I'd have a hybrid for the road wheels and tyres.
Never liked slicks on a mountain bike.

I've just been through the exercise myself.

I bought a Kona Dew Plus and added fenders and a rack. Just getting to
know the bike, but I'm loving it so far.

Others have noted the benefits of buying a bike that comes with
everything and there is much to be said for that. The down side is that
there are not a lot of bikes that come with everything, so it really
limits your options. There are lots of bikes that are suitable for
commuting, particularly if you add fenders and a rack.

Most of the manufacturer web sites I visited whilst searching list the
stand-over height of the frame. That, to me, seems more useful than the
frame size. With a 28" inseam, a stand-over height of 30" is not a
frame of interest too me (I like singing bass).

Enjoy the search.