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  #51  
Old October 9th 17, 07:42 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
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On Monday, October 9, 2017 at 1:40:44 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Unfortunately, my safety story is quite real. I don't have time to
tell the story in detail, but basically, the safety guards and
interlocks were responsible for more accidents than the unsafe
original equipment. Much of this was in the 1970's and 1980's, when
OSHA was empowered to demand these safety features, and machinery
manufacturers were forced to retrofit existing machinery with
dangerous safety guards and awkward interlocks. It's much better
today, but the basic principle applies. If people feel that they're
safe, they tend to do risky things on the assumption that the safety
devices will protect them from injury.


I developed and taught the robotics class in my program. My best friend worked
as an OSHA inspector in another state. I brought him in to talk about a robot-
related fatality he investigated.

The robotic workcell was designed and installed by a German company, and a
young German engineer working in the plant was charged with maintaining it.

One day the robot stopped mid-process. One of the many interlock sensors was
preventing it from accessing the workpiece. Now, the workcell had all the
proper lockout/tagout controls. It even had a remote camera that could be
placed where needed to safely watch any problem steps. Of course, it had a
gate in the chain link barrier fence that would stop all operation if opened,
and require restart from outside the workcell.

But this young engineer was too smart for that. He felt he needed to see the
problem up close; so he lay down on the parts conveyor and let himself be
rolled into the workcell through a small opening. He then went over to the
fixture holding the workpiece, saw the sensor that wasn't making contact,
adjusted it, and was stabbed to death from behind by the now-satisfied robot
as it reached for the part in the fixture.

- Frank Krygowski
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  #52  
Old October 9th 17, 08:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
DougC
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Default DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS

On 10/9/2017 11:06 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
...
Incidentally, one of the proposed solutions to the pothole problem is
for a self driving vehicle to "mark" the location of any road hazards
on the map which all the other cars use. It's essentially a crowd
sourced technology that in use today with traffic monitoring software
such as Waze and Google Maps. The first vehicle that finds a pothole
sends the GPS lat-long position of the pothole to the central
computer, which then redistributes the hazard to navigation
information to the other self-driving cars. The first car to drive
into the pot hole may have a problem, but those that follow can the
avoid the pothole.

"Google Is Developing a System to Map Potholes Using a Car's GPS"
http://time.com/money/4009901/google-patent-gps-potholes-tracking-map/
My explanation of the origin, nature, and characteristics of potholes,
a little about their reproductive habits, and their connection to
gophers:
http://members.cruzio.com/~jeffl/nooze/pothole.txt



I think eventually self-driving cars will be a lot more efficient than
what we have now, but two things will need to happen.

1) there may need to be stationary "base stations" that track local
problems, that the cars will automatically connect to and query for
local road conditions (such as the locations of really bad road damage...)

2) people will have to get used to the car doing the navigation, even
when it doesn't appear to be the most-direct way to go--due to traffic
conditions or road construction or whatever.

Of course, #2 above means that cities will basically be tracking
wherever you drive, all the time. Which sounds creepy at first, but
eventually normal people won't care. Some cities are kinda doing it now,
with stationary and mobile license plate scanners. At least to some
degree your ISP tracks everything you do online, and your cell phone
company tracks everything you do (and where you go) with your cell
phone. The way these systems are constructed and managed makes doing so
necessary to an extent.

.......

Also the bicycle detection problem is not so much of a problem. All you
need is a unique optical reflector type that isn't allowed to be used
for other things.

Such as, instead of a single round silver (front) or red (rear)
reflector, have three smaller round reflectors, mounted in a pyramid.

For the side reflectors on the bicycle frame (not on the wheels) use two
round reflectors, the 'leading' one mounted 45-degrees to the trailing one.

Cars will already have IR lighting for their self-driving feature
anyway, new reflectors don't cost much and just doing this would make
the task of a computer picking out a bicycle from a camera image WAY
faster and easier.

Plus I just wanna see Lance-wannabes with 50-cent reflectors on their
$5000 carbon road bikes. :]
  #53  
Old October 10th 17, 12:45 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Doug Landau
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On Sunday, October 8, 2017 at 8:27:41 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, October 8, 2017 at 7:20:16 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/8/2017 3:46 PM, Doc O'Leary wrote:
For your reference, records indicate that
Jeff Liebermann wrote:

It's highly likely that we're going to have driverless cars inflicted
upon the American public either the choice of government edict. My
guess(tm) is that such driverless cars will need to communicate with
each other and with some manner of central traffic authority via some
kind of mesh network. It's this network that controls which roadway
the vehicles will travel, distributes the traffic to prevent
bottlenecks, and hopefully helps prevent accidents. If bicycles are
going to continue riding on the same roads, they will need to check
into the same mesh network that will be used by cars, buses, trucks,
and such in order to be deemed safe.

That’s quite a leap. The streets are and will continue to be full of
vehicles that *aren’t* going to be part of that sort of network for a
long, long time.


Agreed. Yesterday, a friend and I attended an event somewhere east of
his home and west of mine. He arrived in his 1930 Model A. I arrived on
my 1972 motorcycle.

Also: We spent today walking and biking around a major city. That meant
frequently negotiating with motorists as we walked across streets using
crosswalks. As has been pointed out many times, the per-mile fatality
rate for pedestrians is triple that of bicyclists.

So: Transponders in shoes?


I rode past a school and there was a car show on the field consisting of virtually every sports car built before 1960.


Including the foomobile?
  #54  
Old October 10th 17, 01:03 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Default DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS

On 10/9/2017 6:45 PM, Doug Landau wrote:
On Sunday, October 8, 2017 at 8:27:41 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, October 8, 2017 at 7:20:16 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/8/2017 3:46 PM, Doc O'Leary wrote:
For your reference, records indicate that
Jeff Liebermann wrote:

It's highly likely that we're going to have driverless cars inflicted
upon the American public either the choice of government edict. My
guess(tm) is that such driverless cars will need to communicate with
each other and with some manner of central traffic authority via some
kind of mesh network. It's this network that controls which roadway
the vehicles will travel, distributes the traffic to prevent
bottlenecks, and hopefully helps prevent accidents. If bicycles are
going to continue riding on the same roads, they will need to check
into the same mesh network that will be used by cars, buses, trucks,
and such in order to be deemed safe.

That’s quite a leap. The streets are and will continue to be full of
vehicles that *aren’t* going to be part of that sort of network for a
long, long time.

Agreed. Yesterday, a friend and I attended an event somewhere east of
his home and west of mine. He arrived in his 1930 Model A. I arrived on
my 1972 motorcycle.

Also: We spent today walking and biking around a major city. That meant
frequently negotiating with motorists as we walked across streets using
crosswalks. As has been pointed out many times, the per-mile fatality
rate for pedestrians is triple that of bicyclists.

So: Transponders in shoes?


I rode past a school and there was a car show on the field consisting of virtually every sports car built before 1960.


Including the foomobile?


Probably I was thinking you don't see an Hispano-Suiza, a
Mercedes-Simplex and a Talbot together very often nowadays.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #55  
Old October 10th 17, 01:21 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joy Beeson
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Default DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS

On Sun, 8 Oct 2017 22:20:13 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

So: Transponders in shoes?


I don't wear shoes. They give me corns.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

  #56  
Old October 10th 17, 02:22 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
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On Mon, 09 Oct 2017 12:58:24 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

Per Jeff Liebermann:
Once safety interlocks and
shields are introduced, the accident rate usually increases rather
than decreases. That's because workers genuinely believe that the
safety device will protect them from harm, no matter how stupid they
act. So, they do risky things and soon learn that safety devices only
protect against a limited number of possible actions.


Our Industrial Relations 101 prof told us the following (approximate)
story:

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lumbering operations are notoriously dangerous. You have hundreds of
large, whole, trees piled up and workers have to navigate the mess.

One particular hazard is the crane: guys get killed and maimed as trees
being moved around by the crane impact workers.

One such operation had a conspicuously-good safety record and The Powers
That Be wanted to find out how it was accomplished.

They brought the crane operator in for questioning.

"How do you manage to keep such a good safety record in such a dangerous
environment?"

"Well, when I hook up a tree and start moving it, I yell 'RUN YOU
SONOFABITCHES, RUN!!!!'."
------------------------------------------------------------------------

And that was it.

There was no Snopes back then, so I don't know....


But why ever not? After all audible warning devices have been in used
for centuries :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

  #57  
Old October 10th 17, 02:43 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Last time spotted a big mouth camaro ?

  #58  
Old October 10th 17, 12:49 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/10/0...ws.google.com/
  #59  
Old October 10th 17, 04:24 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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On Monday, October 9, 2017 at 10:40:44 AM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Probably baloney. You can't hear anyone yelling over the noise of a
big diesel crane motor.


Never been around large motorized operations have you? Though those large scale logging operations mostly used steam cranes. A man's hearing is tuned to hear a man's voice and it's pretty surprising exactly how much noise there can be and you can still hear a man.

Under heavy sail with wind and wave dashing a large sailboat about you can hear men talking in the cockpit from the foredeck.

Around diesel locomotives on the railroad the engineer and fireman can converse almost in a normal tone of voice.

Inside a B52 on take-off with all eight motors on full throttle and no insulating to speak of you could talk to someone 5 feet away.
  #60  
Old October 10th 17, 04:28 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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On Monday, October 9, 2017 at 11:20:59 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Sunday, October 8, 2017 at 11:32:54 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Methinks that much the same will be when driverless cars are
introduced while chanting the "safety" mantra. Drivers will believe
that the driverless car technology will protect them from harm, and
proceed to perform new and original stupid stunts, testing the limits
of the new technology. If the programmers have anticipated such
stunts, then these drivers might live to tell the story at the next
party. If not, the drivers become a statistic. I'm not worried
because natural selection should be able to eliminate drivers with
more faith in the new technology than understanding.


Yep. You're describing "risk compensation." It's real.

Now, back to my question. How much are you willing to relinquish for
the privilege of riding your bicycle on the driverless highway of the
future? Are you ready for robo-bike?


I'm not willing to relinquish my right to travel by bicycle.


Some guy was driving a Tesla in self driving mode and was typing on his laptop when a large truck cross an intersection in front of him. The self driving thought it was an overhead and continued under the truck cutting the top of the Tesla off and beheading the non-driving owner.

While this was the sort of thing that any programmer should have foreseen the Tesla programmer didn't.

There is absolutely no way a self driving car can work in all cases.
 




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