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Why do some forks and frames have brake rotor size limits?



 
 
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  #311  
Old November 5th 17, 05:41 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Why do some forks and frames have brake rotor size limits?

On Sat, 04 Nov 2017 08:00:49 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-11-03 17:47, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 03 Nov 2017 07:53:04 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-11-01 19:23, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2017 13:56:24 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-11-01 13:39, wrote:
On Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 12:35:34 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

A lever is never supposed to bottom out before the brake force on
respective wheel is maxed. If it did then he'd have faulty brakes
and I am sure he'd not have posted this. The guys look like serious
cyclists who know this.

How old are you again Joerg? With even the old Campy brakes it was
possible to bottom out the levers often without locking the wheels.


I clearly consider that a faulty brake system. In Germany they would
instantly disqualify a motor vehicle with such a flaw and not even let
you ride it off the TUEV test site.

But Jeorg, you aren't in Germany.


So that makes it ok to tool around in traffic with faulty equipment?


Goodness! You mean that if it isn't acceptable in Germany it is
automatically faulty and absolutely cannot be used in the rest of the
world?


A vehicle where the brake force is not at absolute max with full
actuation is faulty. Always.


Somehow, I don't think that you are correct.


So you honestly think that a bike where the levers bottom out while the
wheels are still not locked up is "safe to go"?

If that's true I am glad you are no longer maintaining aircraft. I have
a very different philosophy about safety.


Ah Joerg, such squirming about.

You say that it isn't acceptable in Germany and I remind you that you
aren't in Germany. You then argue that "it isn't safe to fool around
in traffic with faulty equipment" and I ask you " Goodness! You mean
that if it isn't acceptable in Germany it is automatically faulty and
absolutely cannot be used in the rest of the world?"

Now you are into brake levers and you have never answered the question
of whether if it isn't approved in Germany it can't be used anywhere?

So lets get back to the basic point. You imply that something that is
unacceptable in Germany should not be used in the rest of the world
and I say "Somehow, I don't think that you are correct."

After we settle the question of German superiority we can get into the
brake levers and all the other bumph.

Or of course, we could discuss brake levers and ignore the whole
question of what is approved in Germany as immaterial.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Ads
  #312  
Old November 9th 17, 12:17 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Why do some forks and frames have brake rotor size limits?

On 2017-11-04 19:07, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/4/2017 9:01 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 3:27:28 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-11-04 15:01, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 5:02:25 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-11-04 13:50, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 11:55:18 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-11-04 09:51, jbeattie wrote:

[...]

It's odd being on rim brakes after being on discs exclusively
for the last four months, since my SuperSix bit the dust. I
haven't ridden the bike much because its been raining, and I
just got it, but I do worry about braking a spoke with the
pads running so close to the rim.


How can the pads get into the spokes? That could cause a major
OTB crash.

Poorly written. What I mean is that if you break a spoke and get
a wobbly rim, then it's hard to clear the pads -- even with QR
cams open. That's not a problem with discs.


Yes, that is another reason for having disc brakes on MTB. After
the first few hundred miles of serious use the rims wobble like
those on Russian trucks. Even the rear rim of my road bike does,
can't completely tension it out anymore. It's probably because of
too much dirt road use and heavy loads.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Is that your 600EX equipped road bike? It wasn't designed/intended
for carrying loads on dirt roads. Abuse of equipment by doing so.


It is designed for heavy use. When I bought it that was one of my
requirements and, not surprisingly, the first questions the custom shop
owner asked. A reason why it has wider rims than they usually do.


If the wheel is knackered it should be replaced or completely
respoked with a new rim. But then again, if you did that you won't
have something else to complain about when that wheel finally does
fail - probably miles into your ride.


When have I complained about the rear rim?

A vehicle built to travel on roads must be capable to continue travel on
typical roads. Dirt roads are a typical part of a route in most parts of
the world. Like in our area:

https://goo.gl/maps/mDaf5Uv3t6N2

Of course you could say to yourself, well, I am on a bicycle which is an
inferior vehicle so I better turn around and use the car instead. For me
a bicycle is not just a rolling gym. It is foremost a transportation
device.


No, what we say is that an 80s Euro sport bike with what, MA2s or
something like that and probably 32 spokes and a 600EX hub (just
guessing here) is not the best wheel for hauling your 500lb CPUs on a
wagon road. Plenty of people ride off road to get from one place to
another, usually on more robust equipment -- like a trekking bike or a
CX bike.



It has 32 spokes and it was specifically equipped with extra-thick
spokes after the custom shop inquired about my riding.


Wasn't Jobst noted for taking his standard road bike on goat paths few
mountain bikers would travel? That shows the standard equipment can
handle such duty, if things are done right. The margin of safety is there.

Thing was, Jobst was smart enough to travel light, and therefore stay
within the margin of safety.



Riding with such paltry amounts of water as he did was not smart at all.
Much of the load I carry is ... water. Ok, and the occasional thermos
with homemade IPA in there.


... I strongly suspect that if he had to schlep
heavy equipment on rough terrain, he'd have built wheels that were up to
the task. He certainly wouldn't have used wheels intended for light
duty, then whined about how bad bicycle technology was. Jobst wasn't
much of a whiner.


AFAICT he was giving straightdope when he was peeved about something a
manufacturer did wrong. So am I.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #313  
Old November 9th 17, 12:20 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Why do some forks and frames have brake rotor size limits?

On 2017-11-04 21:41, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 04 Nov 2017 08:00:49 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-11-03 17:47, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 03 Nov 2017 07:53:04 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-11-01 19:23, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2017 13:56:24 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-11-01 13:39, wrote:
On Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 12:35:34 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

A lever is never supposed to bottom out before the brake force on
respective wheel is maxed. If it did then he'd have faulty brakes
and I am sure he'd not have posted this. The guys look like serious
cyclists who know this.

How old are you again Joerg? With even the old Campy brakes it was
possible to bottom out the levers often without locking the wheels.


I clearly consider that a faulty brake system. In Germany they would
instantly disqualify a motor vehicle with such a flaw and not even let
you ride it off the TUEV test site.

But Jeorg, you aren't in Germany.


So that makes it ok to tool around in traffic with faulty equipment?

Goodness! You mean that if it isn't acceptable in Germany it is
automatically faulty and absolutely cannot be used in the rest of the
world?


A vehicle where the brake force is not at absolute max with full
actuation is faulty. Always.


Somehow, I don't think that you are correct.


So you honestly think that a bike where the levers bottom out while the
wheels are still not locked up is "safe to go"?

If that's true I am glad you are no longer maintaining aircraft. I have
a very different philosophy about safety.


Ah Joerg, such squirming about.

You say that it isn't acceptable in Germany and I remind you that you
aren't in Germany. You then argue that "it isn't safe to fool around
in traffic with faulty equipment" and I ask you " Goodness! You mean
that if it isn't acceptable in Germany it is automatically faulty and
absolutely cannot be used in the rest of the world?"

Now you are into brake levers and you have never answered the question
of whether if it isn't approved in Germany it can't be used anywhere?

So lets get back to the basic point. You imply that something that is
unacceptable in Germany should not be used in the rest of the world
and I say "Somehow, I don't think that you are correct."

After we settle the question of German superiority we can get into the
brake levers and all the other bumph.

Or of course, we could discuss brake levers and ignore the whole
question of what is approved in Germany as immaterial.



What nonsense. This is _not_ about countries, this is about riding
around on unsafe equipment and endangering self as well as others. It's
just that some countries check this sort of stuff for some vehicles
while in others they don't give a hoot and let the more careless people
crash.

Since you either don't understand it or don't want to understand, any
further discussion about this with you is useless.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #314  
Old November 9th 17, 12:24 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Why do some forks and frames have brake rotor size limits?

On 2017-11-08 15:17, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-11-04 19:07, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/4/2017 9:01 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 3:27:28 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-11-04 15:01, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 5:02:25 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-11-04 13:50, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 11:55:18 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-11-04 09:51, jbeattie wrote:

[...]

It's odd being on rim brakes after being on discs exclusively
for the last four months, since my SuperSix bit the dust. I
haven't ridden the bike much because its been raining, and I
just got it, but I do worry about braking a spoke with the
pads running so close to the rim.


How can the pads get into the spokes? That could cause a major
OTB crash.

Poorly written. What I mean is that if you break a spoke and get
a wobbly rim, then it's hard to clear the pads -- even with QR
cams open. That's not a problem with discs.


Yes, that is another reason for having disc brakes on MTB. After
the first few hundred miles of serious use the rims wobble like
those on Russian trucks. Even the rear rim of my road bike does,
can't completely tension it out anymore. It's probably because of
too much dirt road use and heavy loads.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Is that your 600EX equipped road bike? It wasn't designed/intended
for carrying loads on dirt roads. Abuse of equipment by doing so.


It is designed for heavy use. When I bought it that was one of my
requirements and, not surprisingly, the first questions the custom shop
owner asked. A reason why it has wider rims than they usually do.


If the wheel is knackered it should be replaced or completely
respoked with a new rim. But then again, if you did that you won't
have something else to complain about when that wheel finally does
fail - probably miles into your ride.


When have I complained about the rear rim?

A vehicle built to travel on roads must be capable to continue
travel on
typical roads. Dirt roads are a typical part of a route in most
parts of
the world. Like in our area:

https://goo.gl/maps/mDaf5Uv3t6N2

Of course you could say to yourself, well, I am on a bicycle which
is an
inferior vehicle so I better turn around and use the car instead.
For me
a bicycle is not just a rolling gym. It is foremost a transportation
device.

No, what we say is that an 80s Euro sport bike with what, MA2s or
something like that and probably 32 spokes and a 600EX hub (just
guessing here) is not the best wheel for hauling your 500lb CPUs on a
wagon road. Plenty of people ride off road to get from one place to
another, usually on more robust equipment -- like a trekking bike or a
CX bike.



It has 32 spokes and it was specifically equipped with extra-thick
spokes after the custom shop inquired about my riding.


Sorry, I meant to write it has 36 spokes.


Wasn't Jobst noted for taking his standard road bike on goat paths few
mountain bikers would travel? That shows the standard equipment can
handle such duty, if things are done right. The margin of safety is
there.

Thing was, Jobst was smart enough to travel light, and therefore stay
within the margin of safety.



Riding with such paltry amounts of water as he did was not smart at all.
Much of the load I carry is ... water. Ok, and the occasional thermos
with homemade IPA in there.


... I strongly suspect that if he had to schlep
heavy equipment on rough terrain, he'd have built wheels that were up to
the task. He certainly wouldn't have used wheels intended for light
duty, then whined about how bad bicycle technology was. Jobst wasn't
much of a whiner.


AFAICT he was giving straightdope when he was peeved about something a
manufacturer did wrong. So am I.



--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #315  
Old November 9th 17, 12:40 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,511
Default Why do some forks and frames have brake rotor size limits?

On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 6:17:07 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-11-04 19:07, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/4/2017 9:01 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 3:27:28 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-11-04 15:01, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 5:02:25 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-11-04 13:50, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 11:55:18 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-11-04 09:51, jbeattie wrote:

[...]

It's odd being on rim brakes after being on discs exclusively
for the last four months, since my SuperSix bit the dust. I
haven't ridden the bike much because its been raining, and I
just got it, but I do worry about braking a spoke with the
pads running so close to the rim.


How can the pads get into the spokes? That could cause a major
OTB crash.

Poorly written. What I mean is that if you break a spoke and get
a wobbly rim, then it's hard to clear the pads -- even with QR
cams open. That's not a problem with discs.


Yes, that is another reason for having disc brakes on MTB. After
the first few hundred miles of serious use the rims wobble like
those on Russian trucks. Even the rear rim of my road bike does,
can't completely tension it out anymore. It's probably because of
too much dirt road use and heavy loads.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Is that your 600EX equipped road bike? It wasn't designed/intended
for carrying loads on dirt roads. Abuse of equipment by doing so.


It is designed for heavy use. When I bought it that was one of my
requirements and, not surprisingly, the first questions the custom shop
owner asked. A reason why it has wider rims than they usually do.


If the wheel is knackered it should be replaced or completely
respoked with a new rim. But then again, if you did that you won't
have something else to complain about when that wheel finally does
fail - probably miles into your ride.


When have I complained about the rear rim?

A vehicle built to travel on roads must be capable to continue travel on
typical roads. Dirt roads are a typical part of a route in most parts of
the world. Like in our area:

https://goo.gl/maps/mDaf5Uv3t6N2

Of course you could say to yourself, well, I am on a bicycle which is an
inferior vehicle so I better turn around and use the car instead. For me
a bicycle is not just a rolling gym. It is foremost a transportation
device.

No, what we say is that an 80s Euro sport bike with what, MA2s or
something like that and probably 32 spokes and a 600EX hub (just
guessing here) is not the best wheel for hauling your 500lb CPUs on a
wagon road. Plenty of people ride off road to get from one place to
another, usually on more robust equipment -- like a trekking bike or a
CX bike.



It has 32 spokes and it was specifically equipped with extra-thick
spokes after the custom shop inquired about my riding.


Wasn't Jobst noted for taking his standard road bike on goat paths few
mountain bikers would travel? That shows the standard equipment can
handle such duty, if things are done right. The margin of safety is there.

Thing was, Jobst was smart enough to travel light, and therefore stay
within the margin of safety.



Riding with such paltry amounts of water as he did was not smart at all.
Much of the load I carry is ... water. Ok, and the occasional thermos
with homemade IPA in there.


... I strongly suspect that if he had to schlep
heavy equipment on rough terrain, he'd have built wheels that were up to
the task. He certainly wouldn't have used wheels intended for light
duty, then whined about how bad bicycle technology was. Jobst wasn't
much of a whiner.


AFAICT he was giving straightdope when he was peeved about something a
manufacturer did wrong. So am I.


It now sounds like you're complaining about a wheel built by a custom shop,
based on the description you gave of your riding conditions. Your complaint
should not be against the bicycle industry in general. It should either be
against the custom shop that built your wheel, or against your own description
of your riding conditions. (I suspect the latter.)

FWIW, I built new wheels for our touring bikes just before we set out to ride
4000 miles coast to coast. We carried full camping loads, and did at least
150 miles near the start of the ride, on the very rough C&O Canal Towpath.
Our wheels are _still_ straight, ten years later.

- Frank Krygowski
  #316  
Old November 9th 17, 01:11 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Why do some forks and frames have brake rotor size limits?

On 2017-11-08 15:40, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 6:17:07 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-11-04 19:07, Frank Krygowski wrote:


[...]


... I strongly suspect that if he had to schlep
heavy equipment on rough terrain, he'd have built wheels that were up to
the task. He certainly wouldn't have used wheels intended for light
duty, then whined about how bad bicycle technology was. Jobst wasn't
much of a whiner.


AFAICT he was giving straightdope when he was peeved about something a
manufacturer did wrong. So am I.


It now sounds like you're complaining about a wheel built by a custom shop,
based on the description you gave of your riding conditions. Your complaint
should not be against the bicycle industry in general. It should either be
against the custom shop that built your wheel, or against your own description
of your riding conditions. (I suspect the latter.)


Where have I complained about the wheel build by the custom shop? Or was
this another fake news story? :-)

This custom shop did a stellar job. I'd like to thank them after riding
this bike for decades but I don't have the invoice anymore and don't
remember the name, just that it was in the city of Aachen, Germany.


FWIW, I built new wheels for our touring bikes just before we set out to ride
4000 miles coast to coast. We carried full camping loads, and did at least
150 miles near the start of the ride, on the very rough C&O Canal Towpath.
Our wheels are _still_ straight, ten years later.


Well, you don't ride where I ride. I was that way since day one, when I
saw a "forest autobahn" that would provide a shortcut I took it.

Even my MTB rear wheel started a wobble after the first few hundred
miles, one that could no longer be tensioned out via the spoke nipples.
Comment from my LBS guy (a MTB competition rider): "That's kind of
normal if you ride a lot"

Just got the new 8-inch rotors from Jenson. Yeehaw! I need to find some
screws and then they'll go on front and back.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #317  
Old November 9th 17, 06:36 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Why do some forks and frames have brake rotor size limits?

On Wed, 08 Nov 2017 15:20:34 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-11-04 21:41, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 04 Nov 2017 08:00:49 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-11-03 17:47, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 03 Nov 2017 07:53:04 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-11-01 19:23, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2017 13:56:24 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-11-01 13:39, wrote:
On Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 12:35:34 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

A lever is never supposed to bottom out before the brake force on
respective wheel is maxed. If it did then he'd have faulty brakes
and I am sure he'd not have posted this. The guys look like serious
cyclists who know this.

How old are you again Joerg? With even the old Campy brakes it was
possible to bottom out the levers often without locking the wheels.


I clearly consider that a faulty brake system. In Germany they would
instantly disqualify a motor vehicle with such a flaw and not even let
you ride it off the TUEV test site.

But Jeorg, you aren't in Germany.


So that makes it ok to tool around in traffic with faulty equipment?

Goodness! You mean that if it isn't acceptable in Germany it is
automatically faulty and absolutely cannot be used in the rest of the
world?


A vehicle where the brake force is not at absolute max with full
actuation is faulty. Always.


Somehow, I don't think that you are correct.


So you honestly think that a bike where the levers bottom out while the
wheels are still not locked up is "safe to go"?

If that's true I am glad you are no longer maintaining aircraft. I have
a very different philosophy about safety.


Ah Joerg, such squirming about.

You say that it isn't acceptable in Germany and I remind you that you
aren't in Germany. You then argue that "it isn't safe to fool around
in traffic with faulty equipment" and I ask you " Goodness! You mean
that if it isn't acceptable in Germany it is automatically faulty and
absolutely cannot be used in the rest of the world?"

Now you are into brake levers and you have never answered the question
of whether if it isn't approved in Germany it can't be used anywhere?

So lets get back to the basic point. You imply that something that is
unacceptable in Germany should not be used in the rest of the world
and I say "Somehow, I don't think that you are correct."

After we settle the question of German superiority we can get into the
brake levers and all the other bumph.

Or of course, we could discuss brake levers and ignore the whole
question of what is approved in Germany as immaterial.



What nonsense. This is _not_ about countries, this is about riding
around on unsafe equipment and endangering self as well as others. It's
just that some countries check this sort of stuff for some vehicles
while in others they don't give a hoot and let the more careless people
crash.


Well, if it is about riding and not countries why did you bring up the
argument that it wouldn't be allowed in Germany?

Since you either don't understand it or don't want to understand, any
further discussion about this with you is useless.


Of course I don't understand it. Here you are in America and arguing
that "it wouldn't be allowed in Germany".

Not germane at all. Unless, of course, California has become a
province of Germany, that is.
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #318  
Old November 9th 17, 06:39 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Why do some forks and frames have brake rotor size limits?

On Wed, 8 Nov 2017 15:40:40 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 6:17:07 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-11-04 19:07, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/4/2017 9:01 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 3:27:28 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-11-04 15:01, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 5:02:25 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-11-04 13:50, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 11:55:18 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-11-04 09:51, jbeattie wrote:

[...]

It's odd being on rim brakes after being on discs exclusively
for the last four months, since my SuperSix bit the dust. I
haven't ridden the bike much because its been raining, and I
just got it, but I do worry about braking a spoke with the
pads running so close to the rim.


How can the pads get into the spokes? That could cause a major
OTB crash.

Poorly written. What I mean is that if you break a spoke and get
a wobbly rim, then it's hard to clear the pads -- even with QR
cams open. That's not a problem with discs.


Yes, that is another reason for having disc brakes on MTB. After
the first few hundred miles of serious use the rims wobble like
those on Russian trucks. Even the rear rim of my road bike does,
can't completely tension it out anymore. It's probably because of
too much dirt road use and heavy loads.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Is that your 600EX equipped road bike? It wasn't designed/intended
for carrying loads on dirt roads. Abuse of equipment by doing so.


It is designed for heavy use. When I bought it that was one of my
requirements and, not surprisingly, the first questions the custom shop
owner asked. A reason why it has wider rims than they usually do.


If the wheel is knackered it should be replaced or completely
respoked with a new rim. But then again, if you did that you won't
have something else to complain about when that wheel finally does
fail - probably miles into your ride.


When have I complained about the rear rim?

A vehicle built to travel on roads must be capable to continue travel on
typical roads. Dirt roads are a typical part of a route in most parts of
the world. Like in our area:

https://goo.gl/maps/mDaf5Uv3t6N2

Of course you could say to yourself, well, I am on a bicycle which is an
inferior vehicle so I better turn around and use the car instead. For me
a bicycle is not just a rolling gym. It is foremost a transportation
device.

No, what we say is that an 80s Euro sport bike with what, MA2s or
something like that and probably 32 spokes and a 600EX hub (just
guessing here) is not the best wheel for hauling your 500lb CPUs on a
wagon road. Plenty of people ride off road to get from one place to
another, usually on more robust equipment -- like a trekking bike or a
CX bike.


It has 32 spokes and it was specifically equipped with extra-thick
spokes after the custom shop inquired about my riding.


Wasn't Jobst noted for taking his standard road bike on goat paths few
mountain bikers would travel? That shows the standard equipment can
handle such duty, if things are done right. The margin of safety is there.

Thing was, Jobst was smart enough to travel light, and therefore stay
within the margin of safety.



Riding with such paltry amounts of water as he did was not smart at all.
Much of the load I carry is ... water. Ok, and the occasional thermos
with homemade IPA in there.


... I strongly suspect that if he had to schlep
heavy equipment on rough terrain, he'd have built wheels that were up to
the task. He certainly wouldn't have used wheels intended for light
duty, then whined about how bad bicycle technology was. Jobst wasn't
much of a whiner.


AFAICT he was giving straightdope when he was peeved about something a
manufacturer did wrong. So am I.


It now sounds like you're complaining about a wheel built by a custom shop,
based on the description you gave of your riding conditions. Your complaint
should not be against the bicycle industry in general. It should either be
against the custom shop that built your wheel, or against your own description
of your riding conditions. (I suspect the latter.)

FWIW, I built new wheels for our touring bikes just before we set out to ride
4000 miles coast to coast. We carried full camping loads, and did at least
150 miles near the start of the ride, on the very rough C&O Canal Towpath.
Our wheels are _still_ straight, ten years later.

- Frank Krygowski


The solution is, of course, solid steel wheels.... just like on my
SUV. Admittedly a bit on the heavy side but then, one just doesn't
worry about weight, does on.
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #319  
Old November 9th 17, 04:39 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Why do some forks and frames have brake rotor size limits?

On 2017-11-08 21:36, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 08 Nov 2017 15:20:34 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-11-04 21:41, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 04 Nov 2017 08:00:49 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-11-03 17:47, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 03 Nov 2017 07:53:04 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-11-01 19:23, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2017 13:56:24 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-11-01 13:39, wrote:
On Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 12:35:34 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

A lever is never supposed to bottom out before the brake force on
respective wheel is maxed. If it did then he'd have faulty brakes
and I am sure he'd not have posted this. The guys look like serious
cyclists who know this.

How old are you again Joerg? With even the old Campy brakes it was
possible to bottom out the levers often without locking the wheels.


I clearly consider that a faulty brake system. In Germany they would
instantly disqualify a motor vehicle with such a flaw and not even let
you ride it off the TUEV test site.

But Jeorg, you aren't in Germany.


So that makes it ok to tool around in traffic with faulty equipment?

Goodness! You mean that if it isn't acceptable in Germany it is
automatically faulty and absolutely cannot be used in the rest of the
world?


A vehicle where the brake force is not at absolute max with full
actuation is faulty. Always.


Somehow, I don't think that you are correct.


So you honestly think that a bike where the levers bottom out while the
wheels are still not locked up is "safe to go"?

If that's true I am glad you are no longer maintaining aircraft. I have
a very different philosophy about safety.

Ah Joerg, such squirming about.

You say that it isn't acceptable in Germany and I remind you that you
aren't in Germany. You then argue that "it isn't safe to fool around
in traffic with faulty equipment" and I ask you " Goodness! You mean
that if it isn't acceptable in Germany it is automatically faulty and
absolutely cannot be used in the rest of the world?"

Now you are into brake levers and you have never answered the question
of whether if it isn't approved in Germany it can't be used anywhere?

So lets get back to the basic point. You imply that something that is
unacceptable in Germany should not be used in the rest of the world
and I say "Somehow, I don't think that you are correct."

After we settle the question of German superiority we can get into the
brake levers and all the other bumph.

Or of course, we could discuss brake levers and ignore the whole
question of what is approved in Germany as immaterial.



What nonsense. This is _not_ about countries, this is about riding
around on unsafe equipment and endangering self as well as others. It's
just that some countries check this sort of stuff for some vehicles
while in others they don't give a hoot and let the more careless people
crash.


Well, if it is about riding and not countries why did you bring up the
argument that it wouldn't be allowed in Germany?


Merely to show that bottoming-out brake actuators are considered a
safety hazard by agencies or notified bodies. In Germany and some other
parts of the world it is mandatory to have motor vehicles checked for
that stuff, in others it isn't.

It is unsafe no matter what and this was only an example.


Since you either don't understand it or don't want to understand, any
further discussion about this with you is useless.


Of course I don't understand it. Here you are in America and arguing
that "it wouldn't be allowed in Germany".


It isn't allowed in the US either but in most states nobody ever checks.
Until there is a nasty crash. Then the insurance lawyers will try to
find out and (rightfully) sue and subrogate.


Not germane at all. Unless, of course, California has become a
province of Germany, that is.



You seem to have a hard time understanding logic.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #320  
Old November 10th 17, 02:25 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Why do some forks and frames have brake rotor size limits?

On Thu, 09 Nov 2017 07:39:34 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-11-08 21:36, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 08 Nov 2017 15:20:34 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-11-04 21:41, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 04 Nov 2017 08:00:49 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-11-03 17:47, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 03 Nov 2017 07:53:04 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-11-01 19:23, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2017 13:56:24 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-11-01 13:39, wrote:
On Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 12:35:34 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

A lever is never supposed to bottom out before the brake force on
respective wheel is maxed. If it did then he'd have faulty brakes
and I am sure he'd not have posted this. The guys look like serious
cyclists who know this.

How old are you again Joerg? With even the old Campy brakes it was
possible to bottom out the levers often without locking the wheels.


I clearly consider that a faulty brake system. In Germany they would
instantly disqualify a motor vehicle with such a flaw and not even let
you ride it off the TUEV test site.

But Jeorg, you aren't in Germany.


So that makes it ok to tool around in traffic with faulty equipment?

Goodness! You mean that if it isn't acceptable in Germany it is
automatically faulty and absolutely cannot be used in the rest of the
world?


A vehicle where the brake force is not at absolute max with full
actuation is faulty. Always.


Somehow, I don't think that you are correct.


So you honestly think that a bike where the levers bottom out while the
wheels are still not locked up is "safe to go"?

If that's true I am glad you are no longer maintaining aircraft. I have
a very different philosophy about safety.

Ah Joerg, such squirming about.

You say that it isn't acceptable in Germany and I remind you that you
aren't in Germany. You then argue that "it isn't safe to fool around
in traffic with faulty equipment" and I ask you " Goodness! You mean
that if it isn't acceptable in Germany it is automatically faulty and
absolutely cannot be used in the rest of the world?"

Now you are into brake levers and you have never answered the question
of whether if it isn't approved in Germany it can't be used anywhere?

So lets get back to the basic point. You imply that something that is
unacceptable in Germany should not be used in the rest of the world
and I say "Somehow, I don't think that you are correct."

After we settle the question of German superiority we can get into the
brake levers and all the other bumph.

Or of course, we could discuss brake levers and ignore the whole
question of what is approved in Germany as immaterial.


What nonsense. This is _not_ about countries, this is about riding
around on unsafe equipment and endangering self as well as others. It's
just that some countries check this sort of stuff for some vehicles
while in others they don't give a hoot and let the more careless people
crash.


Well, if it is about riding and not countries why did you bring up the
argument that it wouldn't be allowed in Germany?


Merely to show that bottoming-out brake actuators are considered a
safety hazard by agencies or notified bodies. In Germany and some other
parts of the world it is mandatory to have motor vehicles checked for
that stuff, in others it isn't.


And what in the world does Germany have to do with anything. Why, they
can't even speak English. How can their opinions count for anything?


It is unsafe no matter what and this was only an example.


Since you either don't understand it or don't want to understand, any
further discussion about this with you is useless.


Of course I don't understand it. Here you are in America and arguing
that "it wouldn't be allowed in Germany".


It isn't allowed in the US either but in most states nobody ever checks.
Until there is a nasty crash. Then the insurance lawyers will try to
find out and (rightfully) sue and subrogate.


Not germane at all. Unless, of course, California has become a
province of Germany, that is.



You seem to have a hard time understanding logic.


No, not really. I just can't equate what they do in Germany with what
is the proper thing to do in the U.S. I mean, a bunch of guys jumping
about in leather shorts and drinking beer?
--
Cheers,

John B.

 




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