Dropper posts for every bike?

On Sun, 1 Dec 2019 21:26:43 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Sunday, 1 December 2019 22:44:13 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 1 Dec 2019 18:54:20 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Sunday, 1 December 2019 20:11:37 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, December 1, 2019 at 4:21:28 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Sunday, December 1, 2019 at 12:17:04 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, December 1, 2019 at 7:17:23 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/30/2019 11:24 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, November 27, 2019 at 10:04:33 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Should pro road racers use dropper posts?

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/worldto...111819293.html

If they do, it won't be long before anyone who uses an ordinary seatpost
will be scorned as a luddite.

--
- Frank Krygowski

I believe a dropper seatpost in professional road bicycle racing might be a safety benefit. Currently, racers descending a mountain will frequently put their groin and belly and chest onto the top of the toptube to become as aerodynamic as possible. This is a somewhat/definitely unsafe position to control a bicycle when descending. But with a dropper seatpost, the racer could get himself into the low aerodynamic position, AND remain seated on the saddle. Overall a much safer position to descend a mountain. So a dropper seatpost would be an easy safety enhancement for professional bicyclists. Who would be against increasing the safety aspect of professional bicycle racing?

IMO, racers can do whatever is within the rules to win a race. But as I
said, it won't be long before anyone who makes a different choice than a
racer will be scorned, at least by some.

Over the years, it's happened with lycra clothes, helmets, clipless
pedals, 6 then 7 then 8 then 9 then 10 then 11 cogs, index shifting,
STI, aero wheels, carbon fiber, aero frames...

Scorned by whom? Who cares if you do or don't wear lycra? Who would care if you do or don't have a dropper post? Do people really make you feel bad because you have DT shifting? Man, I'm avoiding Ohio.

Almost all the scorn I've received has been on this newsgroup. Most recently
it's been about non-electronic shifting. Before that, disc brakes. Before that,
STI. Before that, toe clips instead of clipless, etc.

As I recall, you were being scorned for dismissing anyone with equipment newer than 1987 as being a faddist. You should be scorned for that -- and made to sit in the corner. Nobody cares if you buy new equipment, but just dismissing discs or Di2 as "style" or "fad" is stupid without at least trying it first. I dismissed SIS as a Fisher Price toy for people who couldn't friction shift. I loved it when I got it, and then STI -- which was hugely beneficial in races and still my preferred shifting method (although electricity is not a requirement). I would hate to go back to DT shifting, and I hated bar ends even when they were current. I would whack my knees on them climbing out of the saddle.


There have been a very few times I've gotten person to person scorn. Most common
has been helmet related (or rather, related to my not wearing a helmet). I
recall one young dude (years ago) mocking my 32 tooth rear cog. (That guy's
probably using a bigger one now.) I recall a different dude sort of mocking "all
the stuff" I have on my bike: lights, fenders, handlebar bag.

(Actually, I haven't had downtube shifters since about 1982. I mostly use bar-
end shifters.)

Gear mocking is a thing of the past, except if you get one of those 50t Eagle rear cogs. I would mock you. I got mocked by some stranger racer who I was dogging up Mt. Hamilton in the 70s. I had a 42X28, which was a huge cog. I think the guy was just ****ed off because I was hanging with him on a touring bike. That was the moment I decided to race, and the rest is history. Even after six Tour victories, three Giros and two Vueltas, I look back on that ride up Mt. Hamilton as one of the most important days of my life. Oh wait, I only won those races while day dreaming on my rollers. Never mind. Anyway, mocking can be a good thing. It makes us hard men.

-- Jay Beattie.

Shimano SIS is in my opinion one of the greatest advances in bicycling that made bicycling so much easier for many people. It ranks right up there with the safety bicycle and pneumatic tires. With a properly adjusted SIS (or Brifters) almost anyone can make perfect shifts and do so without the long learning curve that used to be required by so many.

Cheers

Come on with the long learning curve. A one hour, or maybe shorter
ride?

But, in fact, I am reading that there are fewer cyclists today than
there were 10, or more years ago, and far fewer then there were 40
years ago. In fact it is probable that the 1970's was the high point
in cycling in the U.S. There were 15.2 million bikes sold in 1973
which is the all time high.

Calculating sales versus population we find that 7.19 bikes were sold
per each 100 people in the U.S. in 1973 and in 2015 there were 3.9
bikes sold per 100 people.

And, lets see, a 1973 bike had down tube shifters, 10 speeds, tubular
tires and rim brakes.

So all the magic automatic, electric, razzmatazz, doesn't seem to have
increased the numbers of bike riders, does it?

--
cheers,

John B.

I knew a lot of people back in the days of friction shifting who had a very hard time learning to shift so that there was no noise from a chain that wasn't properly engaged on a cog or chainring. So, yes for them it was a long learning curve. In fact some of them never got the hang of clean shifts. For those people SIS was a real blessing.

Cheers

Seriously?

I can't even remember "learning to shift". Nearly 30 years ago now and
that was all there was so I just got on and rode the beast. Probably
I missed some shifts and miss shifted but as there was no other way to
get the thing to change gears I just got used to it. Memory is
sometimes not as clear as it might be but I certainly don't remember
it being especially traumatic to shift.

Rather like driving a stick shift car with a foot clutch. It did take
a bit of practice but if you wanted to drive the folk's car to the
Saturday night barn dance you when you were 16 years old you just did
it.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Monday, December 2, 2019 at 4:44:13 AM UTC+1, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 1 Dec 2019 18:54:20 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Sunday, 1 December 2019 20:11:37 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, December 1, 2019 at 4:21:28 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Sunday, December 1, 2019 at 12:17:04 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, December 1, 2019 at 7:17:23 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/30/2019 11:24 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, November 27, 2019 at 10:04:33 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Should pro road racers use dropper posts?

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/worldto...111819293.html

If they do, it won't be long before anyone who uses an ordinary seatpost
will be scorned as a luddite.

--
- Frank Krygowski

I believe a dropper seatpost in professional road bicycle racing might be a safety benefit. Currently, racers descending a mountain will frequently put their groin and belly and chest onto the top of the toptube to become as aerodynamic as possible. This is a somewhat/definitely unsafe position to control a bicycle when descending. But with a dropper seatpost, the racer could get himself into the low aerodynamic position, AND remain seated on the saddle. Overall a much safer position to descend a mountain. So a dropper seatpost would be an easy safety enhancement for professional bicyclists. Who would be against increasing the safety aspect of professional bicycle racing?

IMO, racers can do whatever is within the rules to win a race. But as I
said, it won't be long before anyone who makes a different choice than a
racer will be scorned, at least by some.

Over the years, it's happened with lycra clothes, helmets, clipless
pedals, 6 then 7 then 8 then 9 then 10 then 11 cogs, index shifting,
STI, aero wheels, carbon fiber, aero frames...

Scorned by whom? Who cares if you do or don't wear lycra? Who would care if you do or don't have a dropper post? Do people really make you feel bad because you have DT shifting? Man, I'm avoiding Ohio.

Almost all the scorn I've received has been on this newsgroup. Most recently
it's been about non-electronic shifting. Before that, disc brakes. Before that,
STI. Before that, toe clips instead of clipless, etc.

As I recall, you were being scorned for dismissing anyone with equipment newer than 1987 as being a faddist. You should be scorned for that -- and made to sit in the corner. Nobody cares if you buy new equipment, but just dismissing discs or Di2 as "style" or "fad" is stupid without at least trying it first. I dismissed SIS as a Fisher Price toy for people who couldn't friction shift. I loved it when I got it, and then STI -- which was hugely beneficial in races and still my preferred shifting method (although electricity is not a requirement). I would hate to go back to DT shifting, and I hated bar ends even when they were current. I would whack my knees on them climbing out of the saddle.


There have been a very few times I've gotten person to person scorn. Most common
has been helmet related (or rather, related to my not wearing a helmet). I
recall one young dude (years ago) mocking my 32 tooth rear cog. (That guy's
probably using a bigger one now.) I recall a different dude sort of mocking "all
the stuff" I have on my bike: lights, fenders, handlebar bag.

(Actually, I haven't had downtube shifters since about 1982. I mostly use bar-
end shifters.)

Gear mocking is a thing of the past, except if you get one of those 50t Eagle rear cogs. I would mock you. I got mocked by some stranger racer who I was dogging up Mt. Hamilton in the 70s. I had a 42X28, which was a huge cog. I think the guy was just ****ed off because I was hanging with him on a touring bike. That was the moment I decided to race, and the rest is history. Even after six Tour victories, three Giros and two Vueltas, I look back on that ride up Mt. Hamilton as one of the most important days of my life. Oh wait, I only won those races while day dreaming on my rollers. Never mind. Anyway, mocking can be a good thing. It makes us hard men.

-- Jay Beattie.

Shimano SIS is in my opinion one of the greatest advances in bicycling that made bicycling so much easier for many people. It ranks right up there with the safety bicycle and pneumatic tires. With a properly adjusted SIS (or Brifters) almost anyone can make perfect shifts and do so without the long learning curve that used to be required by so many.

Cheers

Come on with the long learning curve. A one hour, or maybe shorter
ride?

But, in fact, I am reading that there are fewer cyclists today than
there were 10, or more years ago, and far fewer then there were 40
years ago. In fact it is probable that the 1970's was the high point
in cycling in the U.S. There were 15.2 million bikes sold in 1973
which is the all time high.

Calculating sales versus population we find that 7.19 bikes were sold
per each 100 people in the U.S. in 1973 and in 2015 there were 3.9
bikes sold per 100 people.

And, lets see, a 1973 bike had down tube shifters, 10 speeds, tubular
tires and rim brakes.

So all the magic automatic, electric, razzmatazz, doesn't seem to have
increased the numbers of bike riders, does it?

--
cheers,

John B.

What are you trying to say? Are you denying that index shifting doesn't make shifting easier for the non cycling geeks, like us? Even today and even here in de Netherlands front, back and up down levers are complicated for a lot of people. They prefer one indexed twist shifter you get with a gear hub.

Lou

On 12/1/2019 5:05 PM, John B. wrote:

snip

You see Frank, you are an old Geezer and just "aren't with it", why,
you probably don't even owe any money. See, the "average" American
family owes $15,675 on their credit cards alone....
https://www.cheatsheet.com/money-car...can-debt.html/

You misread that. The heading is "Total debt owed by the average U.S.
household carrying this type of debt." The majority of U.S. households
carry no credit card debt at all.

https://www.valuepenguin.com/average-credit-card-debt
For November 2019:
• 58.8% of households carry no credit card debt
• For the 41.2% that do carry credit card debt the average amount is $9333
• Average credit card debt (including those households with no credit
card debt) is $5700

https://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/credit-card-debt-statistics-1276.php
• 63% of households carry no credit card debt
• For the 37% that do carry credit card debt the average amount is $9457
• Average credit card debt (including those households with no credit
card debt) is $5554

The people that do carry credit card debt are paying high interest rates
and are financing benefits for those that don't carry credit card debt.
In the U.S., it's common to get 2% flat-rate cash back on credit card
purchases, as well as many other benefits. Part of the cost of benefits
is subsidized by merchant fees, but merchant fees alone are not sufficient.

I have one card that gives 3% cash back on all mobile wallet purchases.
There's a net annual fee of $75 but the extra cash back (versus a no-fee
2% card) more than makes up for that, plus there are multiple other
benefits.

See a comparison of nine cash back credit cards at
https://tinyurl.com/9-Cashback-Comparsion.

On 12/1/2019 5:11 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

As I recall, you were being scorned for dismissing anyone with equipment newer than 1987 as being a faddist. You should be scorned for that -- and made to sit in the corner. Nobody cares if you buy new equipment, but just dismissing discs or Di2 as "style" or "fad" is stupid without at least trying it first. I dismissed SIS as a Fisher Price toy for people who couldn't friction shift. I loved it when I got it, and then STI -- which was hugely beneficial in races and still my preferred shifting method (although electricity is not a requirement). I would hate to go back to DT shifting, and I hated bar ends even when they were current. I would whack my knees on them climbing out of the saddle.

I never like bar-end shifters either. I thought that handlebar shifters
with separate brake levers, or brifters, were an excellent idea. I
didn't mind down-tube index shifting but indexed shifting was a big
improvement despite the required adjustments to set it up.

snip

Gear mocking is a thing of the past, except if you get one of those 50t Eagle rear cogs. I would mock you. I got mocked by some stranger racer who I was dogging up Mt. Hamilton in the 70s. I had a 42X28, which was a huge cog. I think the guy was just ****ed off because I was hanging with him on a touring bike. That was the moment I decided to race, and the rest is history. Even after six Tour victories, three Giros and two Vueltas, I look back on that ride up Mt. Hamilton as one of the most important days of my life. Oh wait, I only won those races while day dreaming on my rollers. Never mind. Anyway, mocking can be a good thing. It makes us hard men.

While I don't experience gear mocking, I do often experience gear envy,
and the inquiry: "I want one, where did you get that?"

Alas, as the quote from Rivendell goes "If you find something you
really, really like, buy a lifetime supply; because it'll either be
changed for the worse or go out of production" means that the gear envy
will continue because many of the items are no longer available, or
command a very high price on the used or NOS (new old stock) market.

Accessories that generate gear envy that are discontinued and hnece
difficult, expensive, or impossible to acqui
• Rhode Gear Flickstand https://www.ebay.com/c/1139042901
• Cateye TL-LD 1100 rear light
https://www.bicyclehero.com/us/cateye-tl-ld1100-bicycle-safety-led-lamp-rear.html
• Flash Flag
https://www.bicycleheaven.org/products/mesinger-seat-tabs-fit-schwinn-elgin-whizzer-others
• BBB Fuel Tank XL Bottle Cage https://www.ebay.com/itm/223762354309
• Massload CL-476 Rear Rack (no longer available), image at
http://nordicgroup.us/tail/index.4.jpg

Several of the accessories I use that generate envy are still available:
• Pannier/Day Pack https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32944397446.html
• Classic Bicycle Bell https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32391981211.html
• Gaciron 1800 Lumen Bike Light
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33021067619.html
• Herrmans H-black Pro Dynamo front light
https://www.performancebike.com/herrmans-hblack-pro-dynamo-led-head-light-black-4099-0140/p672562

On 12/1/2019 7:44 PM, John B. wrote:

snip

So all the magic automatic, electric, razzmatazz, doesn't seem to have
increased the numbers of bike riders, does it?

The late 60's/early 70's were outliers in terms of bicycles being sold
in the U.S.. It's when the Schwinn Varsity became every teenager's dream
and mass quantities were sold. Those that couldn't afford a Scwhinn
Varsity for $90 bought a department store Murray or C. Itoh "ten speed"
for $50-60.

Also, you can't equate the number of bicycles sold with the number of
riders.

On Monday, December 2, 2019 at 1:44:11 AM UTC+1, Duane wrote:
wrote:
On Sunday, December 1, 2019 at 4:17:23 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/30/2019 11:24 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, November 27, 2019 at 10:04:33 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Should pro road racers use dropper posts?

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/worldto...111819293.html

If they do, it won't be long before anyone who uses an ordinary seatpost
will be scorned as a luddite.

--
- Frank Krygowski

I believe a dropper seatpost in professional road bicycle racing might
be a safety benefit. Currently, racers descending a mountain will
frequently put their groin and belly and chest onto the top of the
toptube to become as aerodynamic as possible. This is a
somewhat/definitely unsafe position to control a bicycle when
descending. But with a dropper seatpost, the racer could get himself
into the low aerodynamic position, AND remain seated on the saddle.
Overall a much safer position to descend a mountain. So a dropper
seatpost would be an easy safety enhancement for professional
bicyclists. Who would be against increasing the safety aspect of
professional bicycle racing?

IMO, racers can do whatever is within the rules to win a race. But as I
said, it won't be long before anyone who makes a different choice than a
racer will be scorned, at least by some.

Scorned? Really? Maybe by some idiots, but in general?


Over the years, it's happened with lycra clothes, helmets, clipless
pedals, 6 then 7 then 8 then 9 then 10 then 11 cogs, index shifting,
STI, aero wheels, carbon fiber, aero frames...

Not over here. I heard that the US is a ****ed up country but this I can't believe.

Lou



Seems to me that the scorning comes from the other way around. Just check
the recent posts here about Di2.

I was flabbergasted too. Is Frank not frequently 'accusing' us of:
- being a victim of marketing,
- using parts that are unreliable without any experience with them himself,
- using equipment with un noticeable advantages/gain according to his standards.
- that we are non racers and we don't need any of the new stuff even if we are telling him that it makes our rides more pleasant,
- keep bugging us about wearing a helmet,

He has to show me one post where I mock about his choice of equipment. I think we are very nice to him. Concerning modern equipment Frank and John B are the Statler and Waldorf of rec.bicycles.tech

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpYEJx7PkWE

Lou

On 12/1/2019 9:54 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, 1 December 2019 20:11:37 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, December 1, 2019 at 4:21:28 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Sunday, December 1, 2019 at 12:17:04 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, December 1, 2019 at 7:17:23 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/30/2019 11:24 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, November 27, 2019 at 10:04:33 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Should pro road racers use dropper posts?

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/worldto...111819293.html

If they do, it won't be long before anyone who uses an ordinary seatpost
will be scorned as a luddite.

--
- Frank Krygowski

I believe a dropper seatpost in professional road bicycle racing might be a safety benefit. Currently, racers descending a mountain will frequently put their groin and belly and chest onto the top of the toptube to become as aerodynamic as possible. This is a somewhat/definitely unsafe position to control a bicycle when descending. But with a dropper seatpost, the racer could get himself into the low aerodynamic position, AND remain seated on the saddle. Overall a much safer position to descend a mountain. So a dropper seatpost would be an easy safety enhancement for professional bicyclists. Who would be against increasing the safety aspect of professional bicycle racing?

IMO, racers can do whatever is within the rules to win a race. But as I
said, it won't be long before anyone who makes a different choice than a
racer will be scorned, at least by some.

Over the years, it's happened with lycra clothes, helmets, clipless
pedals, 6 then 7 then 8 then 9 then 10 then 11 cogs, index shifting,
STI, aero wheels, carbon fiber, aero frames...

Scorned by whom? Who cares if you do or don't wear lycra? Who would care if you do or don't have a dropper post? Do people really make you feel bad because you have DT shifting? Man, I'm avoiding Ohio.

Almost all the scorn I've received has been on this newsgroup. Most recently
it's been about non-electronic shifting. Before that, disc brakes. Before that,
STI. Before that, toe clips instead of clipless, etc.

As I recall, you were being scorned for dismissing anyone with equipment newer than 1987 as being a faddist. You should be scorned for that -- and made to sit in the corner. Nobody cares if you buy new equipment, but just dismissing discs or Di2 as "style" or "fad" is stupid without at least trying it first. I dismissed SIS as a Fisher Price toy for people who couldn't friction shift. I loved it when I got it, and then STI -- which was hugely beneficial in races and still my preferred shifting method (although electricity is not a requirement). I would hate to go back to DT shifting, and I hated bar ends even when they were current. I would whack my knees on them climbing out of the saddle.


There have been a very few times I've gotten person to person scorn. Most common
has been helmet related (or rather, related to my not wearing a helmet). I
recall one young dude (years ago) mocking my 32 tooth rear cog. (That guy's
probably using a bigger one now.) I recall a different dude sort of mocking "all
the stuff" I have on my bike: lights, fenders, handlebar bag.

(Actually, I haven't had downtube shifters since about 1982. I mostly use bar-
end shifters.)

Gear mocking is a thing of the past, except if you get one of those 50t Eagle rear cogs. I would mock you. I got mocked by some stranger racer who I was dogging up Mt. Hamilton in the 70s. I had a 42X28, which was a huge cog. I think the guy was just ****ed off because I was hanging with him on a touring bike. That was the moment I decided to race, and the rest is history. Even after six Tour victories, three Giros and two Vueltas, I look back on that ride up Mt. Hamilton as one of the most important days of my life. Oh wait, I only won those races while day dreaming on my rollers. Never mind. Anyway, mocking can be a good thing. It makes us hard men.

-- Jay Beattie.

Shimano SIS is in my opinion one of the greatest advances in bicycling that made bicycling so much easier for many people. It ranks right up there with the safety bicycle and pneumatic tires. With a properly adjusted SIS (or Brifters) almost anyone can make perfect shifts and do so without the long learning curve that used to be required by so many.

I suspect the "long learning curve" applied to people using Simplex
plastic derailleurs and other European derailleurs of the early 1970s.

My first (1972) "ten speed" had Huret derailleurs. I don't remember
whether shifting was difficult. (I remember my only bicycling friend
giving me a weird compliment on my shifting.) But within a few years I
switched to SunTour slant derailleurs. And I remember being on a
training ride behind guys with Campy derailleurs, watching them grind
around looking for gears as my SunTour shifted with no trouble.

Index shifting is certainly a good thing. However, three of my bikes
still don't have it. One (the Cannondale touring bike) was the subject
of a question for Frank Berto back when _Bicycling_ had real tech
content. Someone asked him how to convert the same bike to index
shifting. Berto (a bona fide expert on bike gearing) said [paraphrasing]
"Why would you bother? That bike shifts beautifully! It's not worth
changing!"

Full disclosu I did put index shifting on my wife's identical bike.
(She leads a pampered life.) But mine is still shifting without clicks.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 12/2/2019 2:14 AM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 1 Dec 2019 21:26:43 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Sunday, 1 December 2019 22:44:13 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 1 Dec 2019 18:54:20 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Sunday, 1 December 2019 20:11:37 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, December 1, 2019 at 4:21:28 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Sunday, December 1, 2019 at 12:17:04 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, December 1, 2019 at 7:17:23 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/30/2019 11:24 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, November 27, 2019 at 10:04:33 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Should pro road racers use dropper posts?

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/worldto...111819293.html

If they do, it won't be long before anyone who uses an ordinary seatpost
will be scorned as a luddite.

--
- Frank Krygowski

I believe a dropper seatpost in professional road bicycle racing might be a safety benefit. Currently, racers descending a mountain will frequently put their groin and belly and chest onto the top of the toptube to become as aerodynamic as possible. This is a somewhat/definitely unsafe position to control a bicycle when descending. But with a dropper seatpost, the racer could get himself into the low aerodynamic position, AND remain seated on the saddle. Overall a much safer position to descend a mountain. So a dropper seatpost would be an easy safety enhancement for professional bicyclists. Who would be against increasing the safety aspect of professional bicycle racing?

IMO, racers can do whatever is within the rules to win a race. But as I
said, it won't be long before anyone who makes a different choice than a
racer will be scorned, at least by some.

Over the years, it's happened with lycra clothes, helmets, clipless
pedals, 6 then 7 then 8 then 9 then 10 then 11 cogs, index shifting,
STI, aero wheels, carbon fiber, aero frames...

Scorned by whom? Who cares if you do or don't wear lycra? Who would care if you do or don't have a dropper post? Do people really make you feel bad because you have DT shifting? Man, I'm avoiding Ohio.

Almost all the scorn I've received has been on this newsgroup. Most recently
it's been about non-electronic shifting. Before that, disc brakes. Before that,
STI. Before that, toe clips instead of clipless, etc.

As I recall, you were being scorned for dismissing anyone with equipment newer than 1987 as being a faddist. You should be scorned for that -- and made to sit in the corner. Nobody cares if you buy new equipment, but just dismissing discs or Di2 as "style" or "fad" is stupid without at least trying it first. I dismissed SIS as a Fisher Price toy for people who couldn't friction shift. I loved it when I got it, and then STI -- which was hugely beneficial in races and still my preferred shifting method (although electricity is not a requirement). I would hate to go back to DT shifting, and I hated bar ends even when they were current. I would whack my knees on them climbing out of the saddle.


There have been a very few times I've gotten person to person scorn. Most common
has been helmet related (or rather, related to my not wearing a helmet). I
recall one young dude (years ago) mocking my 32 tooth rear cog. (That guy's
probably using a bigger one now.) I recall a different dude sort of mocking "all
the stuff" I have on my bike: lights, fenders, handlebar bag.

(Actually, I haven't had downtube shifters since about 1982. I mostly use bar-
end shifters.)

Gear mocking is a thing of the past, except if you get one of those 50t Eagle rear cogs. I would mock you. I got mocked by some stranger racer who I was dogging up Mt. Hamilton in the 70s. I had a 42X28, which was a huge cog. I think the guy was just ****ed off because I was hanging with him on a touring bike. That was the moment I decided to race, and the rest is history. Even after six Tour victories, three Giros and two Vueltas, I look back on that ride up Mt. Hamilton as one of the most important days of my life. Oh wait, I only won those races while day dreaming on my rollers. Never mind. Anyway, mocking can be a good thing. It makes us hard men.

-- Jay Beattie.

Shimano SIS is in my opinion one of the greatest advances in bicycling that made bicycling so much easier for many people. It ranks right up there with the safety bicycle and pneumatic tires. With a properly adjusted SIS (or Brifters) almost anyone can make perfect shifts and do so without the long learning curve that used to be required by so many.

Cheers

Come on with the long learning curve. A one hour, or maybe shorter
ride?

But, in fact, I am reading that there are fewer cyclists today than
there were 10, or more years ago, and far fewer then there were 40
years ago. In fact it is probable that the 1970's was the high point
in cycling in the U.S. There were 15.2 million bikes sold in 1973
which is the all time high.

Calculating sales versus population we find that 7.19 bikes were sold
per each 100 people in the U.S. in 1973 and in 2015 there were 3.9
bikes sold per 100 people.

And, lets see, a 1973 bike had down tube shifters, 10 speeds, tubular
tires and rim brakes.

So all the magic automatic, electric, razzmatazz, doesn't seem to have
increased the numbers of bike riders, does it?

--
cheers,

John B.

I knew a lot of people back in the days of friction shifting who had a very hard time learning to shift so that there was no noise from a chain that wasn't properly engaged on a cog or chainring. So, yes for them it was a long learning curve. In fact some of them never got the hang of clean shifts. For those people SIS was a real blessing.

Cheers

Seriously?

I can't even remember "learning to shift". Nearly 30 years ago now and
that was all there was so I just got on and rode the beast. Probably
I missed some shifts and miss shifted but as there was no other way to
get the thing to change gears I just got used to it. Memory is
sometimes not as clear as it might be but I certainly don't remember
it being especially traumatic to shift.

Rather like driving a stick shift car with a foot clutch. It did take
a bit of practice but if you wanted to drive the folk's car to the
Saturday night barn dance you when you were 16 years old you just did
it.

It's too late to check this out, but I bet back in the mid-1990s there
was tight correlation between those who used index shifting and those
who drove automatic transmissions.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 12/2/2019 12:49 PM, wrote:
On Monday, December 2, 2019 at 1:44:11 AM UTC+1, Duane wrote:
wrote:
On Sunday, December 1, 2019 at 4:17:23 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/30/2019 11:24 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, November 27, 2019 at 10:04:33 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Should pro road racers use dropper posts?

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/worldto...111819293.html

If they do, it won't be long before anyone who uses an ordinary seatpost
will be scorned as a luddite.

--
- Frank Krygowski

I believe a dropper seatpost in professional road bicycle racing might
be a safety benefit. Currently, racers descending a mountain will
frequently put their groin and belly and chest onto the top of the
toptube to become as aerodynamic as possible. This is a
somewhat/definitely unsafe position to control a bicycle when
descending. But with a dropper seatpost, the racer could get himself
into the low aerodynamic position, AND remain seated on the saddle.
Overall a much safer position to descend a mountain. So a dropper
seatpost would be an easy safety enhancement for professional
bicyclists. Who would be against increasing the safety aspect of
professional bicycle racing?

IMO, racers can do whatever is within the rules to win a race. But as I
said, it won't be long before anyone who makes a different choice than a
racer will be scorned, at least by some.

Scorned? Really? Maybe by some idiots, but in general?


Over the years, it's happened with lycra clothes, helmets, clipless
pedals, 6 then 7 then 8 then 9 then 10 then 11 cogs, index shifting,
STI, aero wheels, carbon fiber, aero frames...

Not over here. I heard that the US is a ****ed up country but this I can't believe.

Lou



Seems to me that the scorning comes from the other way around. Just check
the recent posts here about Di2.

I was flabbergasted too. Is Frank not frequently 'accusing' us of:
- being a victim of marketing,
- using parts that are unreliable without any experience with them himself,
- using equipment with un noticeable advantages/gain according to his standards.
- that we are non racers and we don't need any of the new stuff even if we are telling him that it makes our rides more pleasant,
- keep bugging us about wearing a helmet,

He has to show me one post where I mock about his choice of equipment. I think we are very nice to him. Concerning modern equipment Frank and John B are the Statler and Waldorf of rec.bicycles.tech

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpYEJx7PkWE

Well, should I "show you" the post you just made?

Or how about if I quote from Nov. 23:

One day, I'm sure, Shimano will introduce "thought shifting" triggered
by some bio-electronic technology. I'm sure it will have fans who will
say "I can't believe I used to have to move my fingers to shift." I'm
sure you will be one of those fans; and I'm sure I won't.

- Frank Krygowski

There is another attempt to ridicule things Frank. Lets do the same.
If you are scared by simple hardware and software that poll 4 simple
switches and when it detects that a switch is actuated it sends a
predetermined amount of pulses and a direction signal to the right
stepper motor maybe you should consider a bike with a wheel you can
flip to get the other gear like in the very old days. Why risk a
failure of a cable or a complex mechanical device such as a derailleur
with multiple pivots and a springs that can fail. Then of course you
only have two gears and you have to stop and get off the bike first
but hey you are not racing so it shouldn't matter.

Lou

As I said in response to another mocking post: No, I'm not afraid of
electronics. If I were, I wouldn't have been able to design and set up
our school's first Industrial Robotics lab.

But I do value simplicity and repairability more than many, especially
on bicycles. And I don't think anything that's best for racers must be
best for all (or even most) cycling enthusiasts.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Monday, December 2, 2019 at 7:45:26 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/2/2019 12:49 PM, wrote:
On Monday, December 2, 2019 at 1:44:11 AM UTC+1, Duane wrote:
wrote:
On Sunday, December 1, 2019 at 4:17:23 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/30/2019 11:24 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, November 27, 2019 at 10:04:33 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Should pro road racers use dropper posts?

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/worldto...111819293.html

If they do, it won't be long before anyone who uses an ordinary seatpost
will be scorned as a luddite.

--
- Frank Krygowski

I believe a dropper seatpost in professional road bicycle racing might
be a safety benefit. Currently, racers descending a mountain will
frequently put their groin and belly and chest onto the top of the
toptube to become as aerodynamic as possible. This is a
somewhat/definitely unsafe position to control a bicycle when
descending. But with a dropper seatpost, the racer could get himself
into the low aerodynamic position, AND remain seated on the saddle.
Overall a much safer position to descend a mountain. So a dropper
seatpost would be an easy safety enhancement for professional
bicyclists. Who would be against increasing the safety aspect of
professional bicycle racing?

IMO, racers can do whatever is within the rules to win a race. But as I
said, it won't be long before anyone who makes a different choice than a
racer will be scorned, at least by some.

Scorned? Really? Maybe by some idiots, but in general?


Over the years, it's happened with lycra clothes, helmets, clipless
pedals, 6 then 7 then 8 then 9 then 10 then 11 cogs, index shifting,
STI, aero wheels, carbon fiber, aero frames...

Not over here. I heard that the US is a ****ed up country but this I can't believe.

Lou



Seems to me that the scorning comes from the other way around. Just check
the recent posts here about Di2.

I was flabbergasted too. Is Frank not frequently 'accusing' us of:
- being a victim of marketing,
- using parts that are unreliable without any experience with them himself,
- using equipment with un noticeable advantages/gain according to his standards.
- that we are non racers and we don't need any of the new stuff even if we are telling him that it makes our rides more pleasant,
- keep bugging us about wearing a helmet,

He has to show me one post where I mock about his choice of equipment. I think we are very nice to him. Concerning modern equipment Frank and John B are the Statler and Waldorf of rec.bicycles.tech

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpYEJx7PkWE

Well, should I "show you" the post you just made?

Or how about if I quote from Nov. 23:

One day, I'm sure, Shimano will introduce "thought shifting" triggered
by some bio-electronic technology. I'm sure it will have fans who will
say "I can't believe I used to have to move my fingers to shift." I'm
sure you will be one of those fans; and I'm sure I won't.

- Frank Krygowski

There is another attempt to ridicule things Frank. Lets do the same.
If you are scared by simple hardware and software that poll 4 simple
switches and when it detects that a switch is actuated it sends a
predetermined amount of pulses and a direction signal to the right
stepper motor maybe you should consider a bike with a wheel you can
flip to get the other gear like in the very old days. Why risk a
failure of a cable or a complex mechanical device such as a derailleur
with multiple pivots and a springs that can fail. Then of course you
only have two gears and you have to stop and get off the bike first
but hey you are not racing so it shouldn't matter.

Lou

As I said in response to another mocking post: No, I'm not afraid of
electronics. If I were, I wouldn't have been able to design and set up
our school's first Industrial Robotics lab.

But I do value simplicity and repairability more than many, especially
on bicycles. And I don't think anything that's best for racers must be
best for all (or even most) cycling enthusiasts.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Gee Frank that is not mocking your choice for downtube shifters or whatever equipment you prefer to ride. It was an answer to your childish 'extrapolation' of electronic shifting.

Lou