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Landis - its all making sense now
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Landis - its all making sense now
On 10 May 2007 16:06:42 -0700, Burt wrote:
http://doucheblogcycling.blogspot.co...05/framed.html As conspiracy class theories go, it's as good as anyone else's got. I actually think it's a lot simpler than that, that no actual premeditation (or serious thought of any kind) is required. The lab ****ed up a test, it happens. Someone leaked the result, it got announced. Everyone went into idiot defense mode and started saying really stupid stuff and stuck to it. Ron |
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Landis - its all making sense now
On Thu, 10 May 2007 21:03:49 -0400, RonSonic
wrote: On 10 May 2007 16:06:42 -0700, Burt wrote: http://doucheblogcycling.blogspot.co...05/framed.html As conspiracy class theories go, it's as good as anyone else's got. I actually think it's a lot simpler than that, that no actual premeditation (or serious thought of any kind) is required. The lab ****ed up a test, it happens. Someone leaked the result, it got announced. Everyone went into idiot defense mode and started saying really stupid stuff and stuck to it. Occam's razor fits. -- JT **************************** Remove "remove" to reply Visit http://www.jt10000.com **************************** |
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Landis - its all making sense now
On May 10, 9:03 pm, RonSonic wrote:
On 10 May 2007 16:06:42 -0700, Burt wrote: http://doucheblogcycling.blogspot.co...05/framed.html As conspiracy class theories go, it's as good as anyone else's got. I actually think it's a lot simpler than that, that no actual premeditation (or serious thought of any kind) is required. The lab ****ed up a test, it happens. Someone leaked the result, it got announced. Everyone went into idiot defense mode and started saying really stupid stuff and stuck to it. Ron I agree...my real opinion of what really happened is that the lab made an error in a mass spec analysis that is difficult to run and difficult to interpret (remember, the dates show that the mass spec analysis was actually done before the T/E ratio screening) - It didn't help that the lab analysts don't seem to be able to follow good documentation practices or get sample numbers right. Once the 'A' sample results were leaked by McQuaid, everyone involved HAD to see the result be right, so everyone either went into "cover your ass mode" and/or thought they could use Floyd to turn "state's evidence" on the guy they could never get (LA). The think that I find upsetting about the whole process is the blatent double standard that exists. Sally Jenkins correctly pointed out that if you're an athlete, you're supposed to adhere to a standard of strict liability by which anytime you have a test show up positive for any reason you get fried. If you work at the LNDD, UCI, WADA, USADA, or are a member of the Arbitration Panel, you can **** up, not follow the rules, leak information to the press, etc., etc., and its all okay, so long as you're working toward the "greater good" of trying to catch drug cheats...the fact that those "cheats" may actually be innocent never seems to cross their mind. |
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Landis - its all making sense now
Dans le message de
ups.com, Burt a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré : On May 10, 9:03 pm, RonSonic wrote: On 10 May 2007 16:06:42 -0700, Burt wrote: http://doucheblogcycling.blogspot.co...05/framed.html As conspiracy class theories go, it's as good as anyone else's got. I actually think it's a lot simpler than that, that no actual premeditation (or serious thought of any kind) is required. The lab ****ed up a test, it happens. Someone leaked the result, it got announced. Everyone went into idiot defense mode and started saying really stupid stuff and stuck to it. Ron I agree...my real opinion of what really happened is that the lab made an error in a mass spec analysis that is difficult to run and difficult to interpret (remember, the dates show that the mass spec analysis was actually done before the T/E ratio screening) - It didn't help that the lab analysts don't seem to be able to follow good documentation practices or get sample numbers right. Once the 'A' sample results were leaked by McQuaid, everyone involved HAD to see the result be right, so everyone either went into "cover your ass mode" and/or thought they could use Floyd to turn "state's evidence" on the guy they could never get (LA). The think that I find upsetting about the whole process is the blatent double standard that exists. Sally Jenkins correctly pointed out that if you're an athlete, you're supposed to adhere to a standard of strict liability by which anytime you have a test show up positive for any reason you get fried. If you work at the LNDD, UCI, WADA, USADA, or are a member of the Arbitration Panel, you can **** up, not follow the rules, leak information to the press, etc., etc., and its all okay, so long as you're working toward the "greater good" of trying to catch drug cheats...the fact that those "cheats" may actually be innocent never seems to cross their mind. To follow a slightly different course, presuming innocence (what a laugh !) - -Let's leave the nationality of the lab out of this, and even not discuss its competence. -Let's leave personalities out of it for just a moment ; if you don't like someone, you can always find a way to interpret results against them ; the contrapositive holds true also. So, we know that only ONCE in seven tests did Landis test positive on a Test A. We know that Test B shows that 6/7 times he tests positive on the same samples. Ergo (pardon my "French"), Test A is useless as an indicator of culpability. It should be abandoned. One Test B fails to show exogenous testosterone, when it had to be there. Ergo, Test B is similarly unreliable. If Test A is bad, just shown, then there should be no testing using Test B, since inadequate proof of a violation CAN NOT lead to Test B. If Test B is also faulty, then neither the first Test B, nor the subsequent 6, should be bases for belief of a violation. The principle of disqualifying cheaters is a good one. Nonetheless, when you have a protocol which encourages finding violations, you have an environment which mandates finding them. When the premise is that innocence is presumed (which is not the case under the UCI Pro Tour Code of Ethics), and the proof is deemed inadequate, then the case goes to a quiet death. In short, when neither conduct nor contents are susceptible of overwhelming proof, then you let the guy race. Operation Puerto is different. There has been evidence of _conduct_, and that is clearly punishable under most legal theories. There are legions of prisoners who were convicted of "attempting" to commit a crime, or "conspiring" to commit a crime. Basic legal theory does not demand that one allow bad conduct to culminate in a violation before you are allowed to take action or to convict. The basic problem faced, is that the desire to root out sophisticaed cheats has brought about reliance on scientific testing, which is biased in favor of finding fault, not on finding out reality. And it is all a question of money. More funding for WADA ; more frequent and more costly lab activity ; more control over who decides which racers race ; more bickering over who gets how much of an increasingly rich pot of gold. I'm not being naïve about cheating, but I am not overwhelmed by it. I am overwhelmed by the holier-than-thou practices and statements of the parties who benefit most from the practices : the organizers, the federations, the UCI, the enforcers, and the losers. The latter being all the ones who just can't win any race at all, blaming everything on the misconduct of winners. Tell you what - let's test all NYSE brokers for drugs. Out of "competition". Recreational and otherwise. Cold remedies, too. Alcohol. Caffeine. Same for the military. Same for civil servants. Any time of day, day of week, season. For their entire working life. Suspension on suspicion. Two year bans for first offenses. Lifetime bans for repeaters. -- Bonne route ! Sandy Verneuil-sur-Seine FR |
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Landis - its all making sense now
Sandy wrote:
Tell you what - let's test all NYSE brokers for drugs. Out of "competition". Recreational and otherwise. Cold remedies, too. Alcohol. Caffeine. Same for the military. Same for civil servants. Any time of day, day of week, season. For their entire working life. Suspension on suspicion. Two year bans for first offenses. Lifetime bans for repeaters. Are you out of your mind?! Test NYSE brokers? If that high-pressure, fast-paced environment, with big money at stake and cut-throat competitiors nipping at their heels doesn't _require_ boosting to stay competitive, I don't know what does! It's not at all like cycl.......errrr, nevermind. Of course the brokers I know of that were heroin and ecstasy addicts probably didn't have a Good Doctor to help them choose their drugs wisely. I find it curious that you would even attempt to hold brokers and the military to such an unrealistic standard. No drugs, indeed! It's not like those _jobs_ are of critical global importance - it's not bike racing, Sandy! They probably don't even have their own newsgroups! R |
#7
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Landis - its all making sense now
"Sandy" wrote in message
... To follow a slightly different course, presuming innocence (what a laugh !) - -Let's leave the nationality of the lab out of this, and even not discuss its competence. -Let's leave personalities out of it for just a moment ; if you don't like someone, you can always find a way to interpret results against them ; the contrapositive holds true also. So, we know that only ONCE in seven tests did Landis test positive on a Test A. We know that Test B shows that 6/7 times he tests positive on the same samples. Ergo (pardon my "French"), Test A is useless as an indicator of culpability. It should be abandoned. One Test B fails to show exogenous testosterone, when it had to be there. Ergo, Test B is similarly unreliable. If Test A is bad, just shown, then there should be no testing using Test B, since inadequate proof of a violation CAN NOT lead to Test B. If Test B is also faulty, then neither the first Test B, nor the subsequent 6, should be bases for belief of a violation. The principle of disqualifying cheaters is a good one. Nonetheless, when you have a protocol which encourages finding violations, you have an environment which mandates finding them. When the premise is that innocence is presumed (which is not the case under the UCI Pro Tour Code of Ethics), and the proof is deemed inadequate, then the case goes to a quiet death. In short, when neither conduct nor contents are susceptible of overwhelming proof, then you let the guy race. Operation Puerto is different. There has been evidence of _conduct_, and that is clearly punishable under most legal theories. There are legions of prisoners who were convicted of "attempting" to commit a crime, or "conspiring" to commit a crime. Basic legal theory does not demand that one allow bad conduct to culminate in a violation before you are allowed to take action or to convict. The basic problem faced, is that the desire to root out sophisticaed cheats has brought about reliance on scientific testing, which is biased in favor of finding fault, not on finding out reality. And it is all a question of money. More funding for WADA ; more frequent and more costly lab activity ; more control over who decides which racers race ; more bickering over who gets how much of an increasingly rich pot of gold. I'm not being naïve about cheating, but I am not overwhelmed by it. I am overwhelmed by the holier-than-thou practices and statements of the parties who benefit most from the practices : the organizers, the federations, the UCI, the enforcers, and the losers. The latter being all the ones who just can't win any race at all, blaming everything on the misconduct of winners. Tell you what - let's test all NYSE brokers for drugs. Out of "competition". Recreational and otherwise. Cold remedies, too. Alcohol. Caffeine. Same for the military. Same for civil servants. Any time of day, day of week, season. For their entire working life. Suspension on suspicion. Two year bans for first offenses. Lifetime bans for repeaters. Very well stated Sandy. |
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Landis - its all making sense now
On May 11, 5:59 am, "Sandy" wrote:
Tell you what - let's test all NYSE brokers for drugs. Out of "competition". Recreational and otherwise. Cold remedies, too. Alcohol. Caffeine. Same for the military. Same for civil servants. Any time of day, day of week, season. For their entire working life. Suspension on suspicion. Two year bans for first offenses. Lifetime bans for repeaters. dumbass, this is the stupidest line of argument i've heard. many professions have rules one agrees to abide by as part of the job, this is not unique to the cycling profession. brokers can be punished for breaking the rules (which would constitute cheating at their job) even if they aren't charged with a crime. military personnel can also be penalized for breaking rules that aren't written into law. |
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Landis - its all making sense now
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#10
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Landis - its all making sense now
Sandy wrote:
So, we know that only ONCE in seven tests did Landis test positive on a Test A. We know that Test B shows that 6/7 times he tests positive on the same samples. Ergo (pardon my "French"), Test A is useless as an indicator of culpability. It should be abandoned. One Test B fails to show exogenous testosterone, when it had to be there. Ergo, Test B is similarly unreliable. Your argument hinges on knowing which of those seven tests was the one that tested negative. If it was the first one, it is possible that he didn't start topping up until between the first and second test dates. I don't think this piece of information (which test date was not positive) was made public. |
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