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Will e-bikes expand cycling?



 
 
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  #21  
Old November 3rd 19, 07:14 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 549
Default Will e-bikes expand cycling?

On Sunday, November 3, 2019 at 3:20:41 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, November 3, 2019 at 5:10:12 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Sunday, November 3, 2019 at 12:37:44 AM UTC+1, pH wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 11:38:01 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 5:55:17 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:

snip


I find the 250watt motor will give me a steady 13-14mph or so on the flat just for how it performs. The elation kit was throttle only, hot pedal assist.
(a lot of the European offerings also appear to be pedal assist only, no throttle. Some have throttles also, I think..

Anyway, lots of fun reading at "electricbike DOT com".

pH

A follow-up to my own post...
The electric assist bike now lives up in Napa to use when I'm visiting my Mom. I still ride "normal" bikes in general, my good old '80s Cannondale touring bike and a recumbent Easy Racer.

When I rode to Trader Joes today I saw only 1 assist bike, a mid drive. Lots of "normal" bikes today. I'll try to keep a count of what I see over a week and report later.

pH


When I would sit on the sidewalk on a nice day along a popular route about 7 out of 10 non road bikes or ATB bikes that pass are electric assisted.. It is an epidemic here in the Netherlands. So to the question 'does E-bikes expand cycling?' Definitely!


eBiking expands eBiking which resembles cycling but isn't. For many, it's just a way of beating traffic -- and all you have to do is move your legs around, simulate cylcing, and you can go 25-30mph in a bike lane -- up hill.. Half the eBikes I see around here are basically eMotorcycles and should be in traffic and not in bike lanes.

-- Jay Beattie.



Most of E bikes here respect the 25 km/hr E assist limit. The people however aren't used going 25 km/hr but are also thrilled by that speed with no effort and do stupid things hence the increase in accidents involving E bikes..
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  #22  
Old November 3rd 19, 08:22 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 4,666
Default Will e-bikes expand cycling?

On Sunday, 3 November 2019 09:20:41 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, November 3, 2019 at 5:10:12 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Sunday, November 3, 2019 at 12:37:44 AM UTC+1, pH wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 11:38:01 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 5:55:17 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:

snip


I find the 250watt motor will give me a steady 13-14mph or so on the flat just for how it performs. The elation kit was throttle only, hot pedal assist.
(a lot of the European offerings also appear to be pedal assist only, no throttle. Some have throttles also, I think..

Anyway, lots of fun reading at "electricbike DOT com".

pH

A follow-up to my own post...
The electric assist bike now lives up in Napa to use when I'm visiting my Mom. I still ride "normal" bikes in general, my good old '80s Cannondale touring bike and a recumbent Easy Racer.

When I rode to Trader Joes today I saw only 1 assist bike, a mid drive. Lots of "normal" bikes today. I'll try to keep a count of what I see over a week and report later.

pH


When I would sit on the sidewalk on a nice day along a popular route about 7 out of 10 non road bikes or ATB bikes that pass are electric assisted.. It is an epidemic here in the Netherlands. So to the question 'does E-bikes expand cycling?' Definitely!


eBiking expands eBiking which resembles cycling but isn't. For many, it's just a way of beating traffic -- and all you have to do is move your legs around, simulate cylcing, and you can go 25-30mph in a bike lane -- up hill.. Half the eBikes I see around here are basically eMotorcycles and should be in traffic and not in bike lanes.

-- Jay Beattie.


Ditto 1000%!

Cheers
  #23  
Old November 3rd 19, 08:23 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 4,666
Default Will e-bikes expand cycling?

On Sunday, 3 November 2019 13:00:48 UTC-5, sms wrote:
On 11/3/2019 6:20 AM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

eBiking expands eBiking which resembles cycling but isn't. For many, it's just a way of beating traffic -- and all you have to do is move your legs around, simulate cylcing, and you can go 25-30mph in a bike lane -- up hill. Half the eBikes I see around here are basically eMotorcycles and should be in traffic and not in bike lanes.


True. They are taking advantage of the bicycle infrastructure to avoid
congestion. But as long as they aren't going 25MPH on an MUP, I think
that it's okay.


The problem is that many of them, at least here, are doing a very high rate of speed on MUPs; or even on sidewalks as I've seen a few do..

Cheers
  #24  
Old November 3rd 19, 08:44 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
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Posts: 8,708
Default Will e-bikes expand cycling?

On 11/3/2019 5:10 AM, wrote:

snip

When I would sit on the sidewalk on a nice day along a popular route about 7 out of 10 non road bikes or ATB bikes that pass are electric assisted. It is an epidemic here in the Netherlands. So to the question 'does E-bikes expand cycling?' Definitely!


Not an epidemic in the U.S., at least in my area. It's pretty flat here
so commuting with an e-bike, versus a regular bike, isn't going to
entice people out of their cars yet.

I see a few DIY conversions, some well-done, some awful.

One thing with the DIY conversions is that you want to avoid most of the
mid-drive conversions. Mid-drive e-bikes should have a frame designed to
mount the motor properly. You can buy these frames but the reality is
that by the time you buy the frame, the motor, and all the parts, you're
better off buying a complete Bafang mid-drive equipped bike, which are
available starting at around $1700. Two years ago I saw one good
retrofit design from Korea at Interbike but it never made it to production.

One exception is the TSDZ2 mid-drive kit, and it's one of the few kits
that can work with dual front chainrings and a front derailleur.

Most commutes around here are 10-15 miles and a front-wheel conversion
with a 15 mile range and a top speed of 15MPH is sufficient (you can buy
a second charger and charge at work or carry the charger along with
you). These kits are available for around $400. If you want a second
battery included it's about $475. $400 is complete with a battery, brake
sensor, controller, LCD display, phone holder, even tools, and you can
get them in 26", 27.5", or 700c, with or without support for disc brakes.


  #25  
Old November 4th 19, 02:45 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
news18
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Posts: 580
Default Will e-bikes expand cycling?

On Sat, 02 Nov 2019 11:37:59 -0700, wb6dwp wrote:


(Apparently electric motors like to spin fast and are more efficient at
high rpm.)


This is why I've only vaguely followed e-bikes for decades. They were of
no use to slow riders. The only result of riding slow would be to burn
out the batteries from high discharge rates.

The there are lots of great battery articles and howtos, etc. there as
well. The 21700 Tesla Li-ion cell appears to be making inroads along w/
the usual 18650 battery format technology.


Pricing will be interesting as a new local lithium miner has just moth
balled their mine claiming lack of demand. The last time I priced lithum
batteries for a project, it was $30K for lead and $300K for lithium, if i
could get them. The usual battery snake oil seems to have shifted to
thier sale now.


A few years ago during the latest gas crunch I thought I saw $5/gallon
gas on the horizon, so I bought a mid-drive kit from an Australian
company called "Elation".
250W motor, 10 AH 48V system. They have since gone out of business.

.......
I find the 250watt motor will give me a steady 13-14mph or so on the
flat just for how it performs. The elation kit was throttle only, hot
pedal assist.


Over here, the mania, including bicycle bodies, screams pedelec only, but
a reading of the legislation does not say that. which is why eleation
might have shut up shop as the various states have now adopted the same
laws across tha nation,

(a lot of the European offerings also appear to be pedal assist only, no
throttle. Some have throttles also, I think..


The hint on pedelecs was to use a lower gear so the sensor that drove the
motor was fooled by the chain ring rotating. That was in reply to someone
who posted on a local forum that they had pushed(walked) a pedelec hire
trike for miles whenthe chain broke .He was told he should have just sat
on it and rotated the pedals.

That advice/hint would depend on the sensor still being based on crank
rotation and not some sensor pedalling

Anyway, lots of fun reading at "electricbike DOT com".


Sounds like a very useful site from your comments. Thanks.

  #26  
Old November 4th 19, 03:27 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
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Posts: 1,291
Default Will e-bikes expand cycling?

On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 01:45:33 -0000 (UTC), news18
wrote:

On Sat, 02 Nov 2019 11:37:59 -0700, wb6dwp wrote:


(Apparently electric motors like to spin fast and are more efficient at
high rpm.)


This is why I've only vaguely followed e-bikes for decades. They were of
no use to slow riders. The only result of riding slow would be to burn
out the batteries from high discharge rates.


Internal combustion vehicles suffer from the same malady. Thus the
"transmission" fitted to nearly all of them. Machinery using
electrical motors almost invariably use a speed reduction system of
some sort to reduce the high motor rpm to a lower speed that can be
utilized by the machinery.

The problem is solvable :-)

Or to be more accurate "the problem has been solved" see
https://electrek.co/2019/04/21/elect...ctric-bicycle/




The there are lots of great battery articles and howtos, etc. there as
well. The 21700 Tesla Li-ion cell appears to be making inroads along w/
the usual 18650 battery format technology.


Pricing will be interesting as a new local lithium miner has just moth
balled their mine claiming lack of demand. The last time I priced lithum
batteries for a project, it was $30K for lead and $300K for lithium, if i
could get them. The usual battery snake oil seems to have shifted to
thier sale now.


A few years ago during the latest gas crunch I thought I saw $5/gallon
gas on the horizon, so I bought a mid-drive kit from an Australian
company called "Elation".
250W motor, 10 AH 48V system. They have since gone out of business.

......
I find the 250watt motor will give me a steady 13-14mph or so on the
flat just for how it performs. The elation kit was throttle only, hot
pedal assist.


Over here, the mania, including bicycle bodies, screams pedelec only, but
a reading of the legislation does not say that. which is why eleation
might have shut up shop as the various states have now adopted the same
laws across tha nation,

(a lot of the European offerings also appear to be pedal assist only, no
throttle. Some have throttles also, I think..


The hint on pedelecs was to use a lower gear so the sensor that drove the
motor was fooled by the chain ring rotating. That was in reply to someone
who posted on a local forum that they had pushed(walked) a pedelec hire
trike for miles whenthe chain broke .He was told he should have just sat
on it and rotated the pedals.

That advice/hint would depend on the sensor still being based on crank
rotation and not some sensor pedalling

Anyway, lots of fun reading at "electricbike DOT com".


Sounds like a very useful site from your comments. Thanks.

--
cheers,

John B.

  #27  
Old November 4th 19, 04:00 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 4,666
Default Will e-bikes expand cycling?

On Sunday, 3 November 2019 21:27:16 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 01:45:33 -0000 (UTC), news18
wrote:

On Sat, 02 Nov 2019 11:37:59 -0700, wb6dwp wrote:


(Apparently electric motors like to spin fast and are more efficient at
high rpm.)


This is why I've only vaguely followed e-bikes for decades. They were of
no use to slow riders. The only result of riding slow would be to burn
out the batteries from high discharge rates.


Internal combustion vehicles suffer from the same malady. Thus the
"transmission" fitted to nearly all of them. Machinery using
electrical motors almost invariably use a speed reduction system of
some sort to reduce the high motor rpm to a lower speed that can be
utilized by the machinery.

The problem is solvable :-)

Or to be more accurate "the problem has been solved" see
https://electrek.co/2019/04/21/elect...ctric-bicycle/




The there are lots of great battery articles and howtos, etc. there as
well. The 21700 Tesla Li-ion cell appears to be making inroads along w/
the usual 18650 battery format technology.


Pricing will be interesting as a new local lithium miner has just moth
balled their mine claiming lack of demand. The last time I priced lithum
batteries for a project, it was $30K for lead and $300K for lithium, if i
could get them. The usual battery snake oil seems to have shifted to
thier sale now.


A few years ago during the latest gas crunch I thought I saw $5/gallon
gas on the horizon, so I bought a mid-drive kit from an Australian
company called "Elation".
250W motor, 10 AH 48V system. They have since gone out of business.

......
I find the 250watt motor will give me a steady 13-14mph or so on the
flat just for how it performs. The elation kit was throttle only, hot
pedal assist.


Over here, the mania, including bicycle bodies, screams pedelec only, but
a reading of the legislation does not say that. which is why eleation
might have shut up shop as the various states have now adopted the same
laws across tha nation,

(a lot of the European offerings also appear to be pedal assist only, no
throttle. Some have throttles also, I think..


The hint on pedelecs was to use a lower gear so the sensor that drove the
motor was fooled by the chain ring rotating. That was in reply to someone
who posted on a local forum that they had pushed(walked) a pedelec hire
trike for miles whenthe chain broke .He was told he should have just sat
on it and rotated the pedals.

That advice/hint would depend on the sensor still being based on crank
rotation and not some sensor pedalling

Anyway, lots of fun reading at "electricbike DOT com".


Sounds like a very useful site from your comments. Thanks.

--
cheers,

John B.


In keeping with the title of this thread. I don't think that E-bikes will do much for bicycling per se. I DO think that E-bikes will do a LOT for E-motor-biking though. Every E-bike Ive seen in my region was being used as an Electric Motorbike NOT a bicycle.

Cheers
  #28  
Old November 4th 19, 04:38 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,291
Default Will e-bikes expand cycling?

On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 19:00:48 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Sunday, 3 November 2019 21:27:16 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 01:45:33 -0000 (UTC), news18
wrote:

On Sat, 02 Nov 2019 11:37:59 -0700, wb6dwp wrote:


(Apparently electric motors like to spin fast and are more efficient at
high rpm.)

This is why I've only vaguely followed e-bikes for decades. They were of
no use to slow riders. The only result of riding slow would be to burn
out the batteries from high discharge rates.


Internal combustion vehicles suffer from the same malady. Thus the
"transmission" fitted to nearly all of them. Machinery using
electrical motors almost invariably use a speed reduction system of
some sort to reduce the high motor rpm to a lower speed that can be
utilized by the machinery.

The problem is solvable :-)

Or to be more accurate "the problem has been solved" see
https://electrek.co/2019/04/21/elect...ctric-bicycle/




The there are lots of great battery articles and howtos, etc. there as
well. The 21700 Tesla Li-ion cell appears to be making inroads along w/
the usual 18650 battery format technology.

Pricing will be interesting as a new local lithium miner has just moth
balled their mine claiming lack of demand. The last time I priced lithum
batteries for a project, it was $30K for lead and $300K for lithium, if i
could get them. The usual battery snake oil seems to have shifted to
thier sale now.


A few years ago during the latest gas crunch I thought I saw $5/gallon
gas on the horizon, so I bought a mid-drive kit from an Australian
company called "Elation".
250W motor, 10 AH 48V system. They have since gone out of business.

......
I find the 250watt motor will give me a steady 13-14mph or so on the
flat just for how it performs. The elation kit was throttle only, hot
pedal assist.

Over here, the mania, including bicycle bodies, screams pedelec only, but
a reading of the legislation does not say that. which is why eleation
might have shut up shop as the various states have now adopted the same
laws across tha nation,

(a lot of the European offerings also appear to be pedal assist only, no
throttle. Some have throttles also, I think..

The hint on pedelecs was to use a lower gear so the sensor that drove the
motor was fooled by the chain ring rotating. That was in reply to someone
who posted on a local forum that they had pushed(walked) a pedelec hire
trike for miles whenthe chain broke .He was told he should have just sat
on it and rotated the pedals.

That advice/hint would depend on the sensor still being based on crank
rotation and not some sensor pedalling

Anyway, lots of fun reading at "electricbike DOT com".

Sounds like a very useful site from your comments. Thanks.

--
cheers,

John B.


In keeping with the title of this thread. I don't think that E-bikes will do much for bicycling per se. I DO think that E-bikes will do a LOT for E-motor-biking though. Every E-bike Ive seen in my region was being used as an Electric Motorbike NOT a bicycle.

Cheers


There have been a number of motors that could be fitted to a bicycle
and invarialbly, as you say, they turned the human powered bicycle
into a motor cycle.

Having lived in a number of developing countries I have observed a the
exact same pattern, or development, from walking to driving a car and
I suspect that it is human nature as the exact same thing happens
everywhere I've been. Walking to bicycling, bicycle to small
motorcycle, small motorcycle to large motorcycle, large motorcycle to
auto.

No body wants to walk if they can get a ride :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

  #29  
Old November 4th 19, 06:47 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
news18
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 580
Default Will e-bikes expand cycling?

On Mon, 04 Nov 2019 09:27:11 +0700, John B. wrote:

On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 01:45:33 -0000 (UTC), news18
wrote:

On Sat, 02 Nov 2019 11:37:59 -0700, wb6dwp wrote:


(Apparently electric motors like to spin fast and are more efficient
at high rpm.)


This is why I've only vaguely followed e-bikes for decades. They were of
no use to slow riders. The only result of riding slow would be to burn
out the batteries from high discharge rates.


Internal combustion vehicles suffer from the same malady. Thus the
"transmission" fitted to nearly all of them. Machinery using electrical
motors almost invariably use a speed reduction system of some sort to
reduce the high motor rpm to a lower speed that can be utilized by the
machinery.

The problem is solvable :-)

Or to be more accurate "the problem has been solved" see
https://electrek.co/2019/04/21/elect...ctric-bicycle/


The marketing and price(no doubt) of a Jaguar combined with the
performance and utility of the Trabant. Woops, it has no utility except
to show your gullability. What's the book on life of the website?
  #30  
Old November 4th 19, 08:28 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,708
Default Will e-bikes expand cycling?

On 11/3/2019 7:38 PM, John B. wrote:

snip

Having lived in a number of developing countries I have observed a the
exact same pattern, or development, from walking to driving a car and
I suspect that it is human nature as the exact same thing happens
everywhere I've been. Walking to bicycling, bicycle to small
motorcycle, small motorcycle to large motorcycle, large motorcycle to
auto.

No body wants to walk if they can get a ride :-)


Until the developing country develops the typical problems with
automobiles. Traffic congestion. Cost and availability of parking. Cost
of insurance. Lack of mass transit infrastructure. Being able to take
advantage of bicycle infrastructure, including bikes on transit, with
essentially what is a limited-range motorcycle, can be extremely useful.
 




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