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torque wrench issues



 
 
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  #101  
Old May 2nd 17, 10:07 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 445
Default torque wrench issues

On Tue, 2 May 2017 19:03:31 +0100, "Ian Field"
wrote:



wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 1 May 2017 21:25:07 +0100, "Ian Field"
wrote:



wrote in message
...
On Mon, 01 May 2017 15:08:31 +0700, John B Slocomb
wrote:

SNIPPED


The usually suggested preparation for welding or brazing galvanized
materials is to grind all the galvanizing off!

ACTUALLY, stripping the zinc with acid is much more effective.
Hydrochloric acid makes short work of zinc and produces zinc chloride,
which can be used as soldering flux - - -

Certainly better than the ****wit who suggested grinding it off and
breathing it as dust instead of fumes.

The steel would probably contaminate it, but it'd have some uses.

Zinc really isn't that toxic - its used in baby powder, hundreds of skin
lotions and winter defence vitamin supplements.

And no one is making all that much commotion about all the scrap zinc
batteries that ended up in landfill. The bogeyman most people think of is
mercury.

That rots out the central nervous system.

And elemental mercury isn't the serious problem it'd made out to be
either - it's the organic compounds (which CAN form in disposal - if
the mercury combines with carbonaceous materials)


I thought it was something like a salt or sulphurous compound - but its a
long time since I read up on it.

And you're being awfully pedantic about the distinction between elements
and their organic compounds for someone with no grasp of etymology.

I have a good grasp of etymology. However, I also have a very good
knowlege of technical terminology and processes - which you obviously
do not - and the etymological derivation of a term is not always the
comonly used or technically correct definition.

Word Origin and History for gal-va-nize Expand

v.

1802, from French galvaniser, from galvanisme (see galvanism ).
Figurative sense of "excite, stimulate (as if by electricity)" first
recorded 1853. Meaning "to coat with metal by means of galvanic
electricity" (especially to plate iron with tin, but now typically to
plate it with zinc) is from 1839.

Also, Galvanic sprouts from the experiments of an Italian by the name
of Luigi Galvani who discovered the electrochemical reacion between 2
dis-similar metals - copper and, you guessed it - ZINC - and Galvanic
as a term has been associated primarily with Zinc ever since..

History of galvanizing. “In 1836, Sorel in France took out the first
of numerous patents for a process of coating steel by dipping it in
molten zinc after first cleaning it. He provided the process with its
name 'galvanizing'."

From WikiPedia:
History and etymology - Galvanization (or galvanizing as it is most
commonly called in that industry) is the process of applying a
protective zinc coating to steel or iron, to prevent rusting. The most
common method is hot-dip galvanizing, in which parts are submerged in
a bath of molten zinc.

The earliest known example of galvanized iron was encountered by
Europeans on 17th-century Indian armor in the Royal Armouries Museum
collection.[1] It was named in English via French from the name of
Italian scientist Luigi Galvani. Originally in the 19th century, the
term "galvanizing" was used to describe the administration of electric
shocks; this was also called Faradism. This usage is the origin of the
metaphorical use of the verb "galvanize", such as to "galvanize into
action" meaning stimulating a complacent person or group to take
action.

In modern usage, the term "galvanizing" has largely come to be
associated with zinc coatings, to the exclusion of other metals.
Galvanic paint, a precursor to hot-dip galvanizing, was patented by
Stanislas Sorel, of Paris, in December 1837



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  #102  
Old May 2nd 17, 10:11 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Ian Field
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 248
Default torque wrench issues



"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message
news
On 5/2/2017 4:46 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 2 May 2017 18:48:54 +0100, "Ian Field"
wrote:



"John B Slocomb" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 1 May 2017 21:14:22 +0100, "Ian Field"
wrote:



wrote in message
...
On Mon, 1 May 2017 07:06:39 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:



Whenever you are working with galvanized steel it is important
that
you take the necessary steps when prepping the metal before
welding.
If you have properly prepped your metal before welding, you will
help
reduce your exposure to zinc oxide fumes.

The usually suggested preparation for welding or brazing galvanized
materials is to grind all the galvanizing off!

Welding a joint with zinc still on the area would weaken the weld
but
who
am I to suggest that you're right?

Smokers have very high amounts of cadmium in their bodies. If you've
smoked for 50 years you probably have the maximum allowable amount
of
cadmium in your body. You can get cadmium in your body by touching
it.
The
amount into your plasma is as high as 0.07%. The half-life of
cadmium in
the body is about 10 years if memory serves.

But both zinc and cadmium would normally only accumulate to
dangerous
levels at a rate that wouldn't harm you until long after you're dead
unless you're a smoker.
Or a careless welder.
Brazing spelter containing cadmium can make you sicker than a dog in
short order if you are breathing the fumes - as can the fumes from
welding galvanized steel. It only takes a few minutes to get you
wretching and puking and aching to the point you almost wish you
could die.

"galvanised" is galvanic protection - which can include any of several
toxic
heavy metals.


While yes, galvanizing is a galvanic protection if you go into a store
and ask for "galvanized iron" you get zinc coated steel.

Some people here seem to think it can only mean zinc.

No, "galvanized", in common U.S. usage, does mean zinc coated.

Etymology is far too complex for Americans to cope with.

And our Limey brethren tend to Bull**** a lot.


Well, more accurately, it's one Limey. I've got British friends who are
intelligent, diplomatic and knowledgeable. IOW, they're quite different
from Ian.


Maybe they just don't know you that well.

  #103  
Old May 2nd 17, 10:11 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 445
Default torque wrench issues

On Tue, 2 May 2017 19:09:32 +0100, "Ian Field"
wrote:



"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message
news
On 5/1/2017 2:49 PM, Ian Field wrote:

wrote:
On Sun, 30 Apr 2017 21:30:36 +0100, "Ian Field" wrote:

Never heard of any warnings against welding zinc passivated steel -
only
know of cadmium plating being very dangerous.

You will only weld or braze galvanized steel in a poorly ventilated
space ONCE unless you are REALLY stupid.

I have never become aware of the dire consequences of welding zinc plated
that are being spouted here.

"galvanised" can be plated with *ANY* metal that has a higher galvanic
affinity than the host metal. Including cadmium and various other toxic
heavy metals.

Cadmium poisoning is cumulative and has various routes into the body -
its a long slow painful journey to a Darwin award.

For a few years I worked assembling electronic equipment on cadmium
plated chassis - I've seen with my own eyes the extent to which the
plating rubs off on your hands.

But if you're too stupid to take it from someone who's been there -
Darwin awaits you with outstretched arms.


Can you not see your post's internal inconsistency?

You have multiple people who have given citations as well as related
experiences about welding zinc galvanized steel, but you discount them
saying "I have never become aware [of that problem]."


I have done and seen others do; things that they claim are instantly
injurous - at no time have I observed any such effect.

My cites are what I've seen with my own eyes.

An old proverb about statistics pretty much says it all. You can present
published papers to say anything you want.


My cites are what I have personally experienced, and what I have
observed others experience, as well as the warnings and instruction
given to welders by OHSA and CWI instructors.

I challenge you to weld hot dipped galvanized steel in a poorly
ventilated space and then tell me after breathing those fumes that I
don't know what I'm talking about. I can pretty well guarantee that if
you attempt it you will end up as sick as you have ever been in your
life. It won't kill you, but it just might make you wish you COULD
die!!!

Been there, Done that, sure as HELL will never do it again!!!!!
  #104  
Old May 2nd 17, 10:12 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Ian Field
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 248
Default torque wrench issues



wrote in message
...
On Tue, 2 May 2017 19:03:31 +0100, "Ian Field"
wrote:



wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 1 May 2017 21:25:07 +0100, "Ian Field"
wrote:



wrote in message
m...
On Mon, 01 May 2017 15:08:31 +0700, John B Slocomb
wrote:

SNIPPED


The usually suggested preparation for welding or brazing galvanized
materials is to grind all the galvanizing off!

ACTUALLY, stripping the zinc with acid is much more effective.
Hydrochloric acid makes short work of zinc and produces zinc chloride,
which can be used as soldering flux - - -

Certainly better than the ****wit who suggested grinding it off and
breathing it as dust instead of fumes.

The steel would probably contaminate it, but it'd have some uses.

Zinc really isn't that toxic - its used in baby powder, hundreds of skin
lotions and winter defence vitamin supplements.

And no one is making all that much commotion about all the scrap zinc
batteries that ended up in landfill. The bogeyman most people think of
is
mercury.

That rots out the central nervous system.
And elemental mercury isn't the serious problem it'd made out to be
either - it's the organic compounds (which CAN form in disposal - if
the mercury combines with carbonaceous materials)


I thought it was something like a salt or sulphurous compound - but its a
long time since I read up on it.

And you're being awfully pedantic about the distinction between elements
and their organic compounds for someone with no grasp of etymology.

I have a good grasp of etymology. However, I also have a very good
knowlege of technical terminology and processes - which you obviously
do not - and the etymological derivation of a term is not always the
comonly used or technically correct definition.


Yes - I'm sure "common usage" is a perfectly good excuse.

  #105  
Old May 2nd 17, 10:14 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 445
Default torque wrench issues

On Tue, 2 May 2017 19:11:29 +0100, "Ian Field"
wrote:



"John B Slocomb" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 01 May 2017 22:25:59 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 1 May 2017 22:00:31 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/1/2017 2:49 PM, Ian Field wrote:

wrote:
On Sun, 30 Apr 2017 21:30:36 +0100, "Ian Field" wrote:

Never heard of any warnings against welding zinc passivated steel -
only
know of cadmium plating being very dangerous.

You will only weld or braze galvanized steel in a poorly ventilated
space ONCE unless you are REALLY stupid.

I have never become aware of the dire consequences of welding zinc
plated that are being spouted here.

"galvanised" can be plated with *ANY* metal that has a higher galvanic
affinity than the host metal. Including cadmium and various other toxic
heavy metals.

Cadmium poisoning is cumulative and has various routes into the body -
its a long slow painful journey to a Darwin award.

For a few years I worked assembling electronic equipment on cadmium
plated chassis - I've seen with my own eyes the extent to which the
plating rubs off on your hands.

But if you're too stupid to take it from someone who's been there -
Darwin awaits you with outstretched arms.

Can you not see your post's internal inconsistency?

You have multiple people who have given citations as well as related
experiences about welding zinc galvanized steel, but you discount them
saying "I have never become aware [of that problem]."

Yet you insult those who YOU think are "too stupid to take it from
someone who's been there..."

Sheesh.
Must be the painted cow's twin brother - - -


Nah, just another old guy with 20 or 30 years in the trade telling you
that you are full of it.


A bit more than that, and more than one trade - one thing you're not full of
is practical experience.

Well, I've had LOTS of practical experience and more than one trade.
I won't go through it again for your benefit, because it won't change
your mind anyway. A lot of the guys on the list know my history and
experience.
  #106  
Old May 2nd 17, 10:15 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 445
Default torque wrench issues

On Tue, 2 May 2017 19:12:39 +0100, "Ian Field"
wrote:



"John B Slocomb" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 1 May 2017 19:49:36 +0100, "Ian Field"
wrote:

a great deal deleted


know of cadmium plating being very dangerous.
You will only weld or braze galvanized steel in a poorly ventilated
space ONCE unless you are REALLY stupid.

I have never become aware of the dire consequences of welding zinc plated
that are being spouted here.

"galvanised" can be plated with *ANY* metal that has a higher galvanic
affinity than the host metal. Including cadmium and various other toxic
heavy metals.


I can only assume that you are not from a country where English is the
common language as the definition of "galvanized" in the U.S. (and
likely in other English speaking countries) is, and I quote, "Covered
with Zinc".


I'm in an English speaking country that's heard of etymology.

You mayb be an etymologist and a Brit, but you have little or no
technical knowlege from what you keep saying.
  #107  
Old May 2nd 17, 10:22 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Ian Field
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 248
Default torque wrench issues



wrote in message
...
On Tue, 2 May 2017 19:09:32 +0100, "Ian Field"
wrote:



"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message
news
On 5/1/2017 2:49 PM, Ian Field wrote:

wrote:
On Sun, 30 Apr 2017 21:30:36 +0100, "Ian Field" wrote:

Never heard of any warnings against welding zinc passivated steel -
only
know of cadmium plating being very dangerous.

You will only weld or braze galvanized steel in a poorly ventilated
space ONCE unless you are REALLY stupid.

I have never become aware of the dire consequences of welding zinc
plated
that are being spouted here.

"galvanised" can be plated with *ANY* metal that has a higher galvanic
affinity than the host metal. Including cadmium and various other toxic
heavy metals.

Cadmium poisoning is cumulative and has various routes into the body -
its a long slow painful journey to a Darwin award.

For a few years I worked assembling electronic equipment on cadmium
plated chassis - I've seen with my own eyes the extent to which the
plating rubs off on your hands.

But if you're too stupid to take it from someone who's been there -
Darwin awaits you with outstretched arms.

Can you not see your post's internal inconsistency?

You have multiple people who have given citations as well as related
experiences about welding zinc galvanized steel, but you discount them
saying "I have never become aware [of that problem]."


I have done and seen others do; things that they claim are instantly
injurous - at no time have I observed any such effect.

My cites are what I've seen with my own eyes.

An old proverb about statistics pretty much says it all. You can present
published papers to say anything you want.


My cites are what I have personally experienced, and what I have
observed others experience, as well as the warnings and instruction
given to welders by OHSA and CWI instructors.

I challenge you to weld hot dipped galvanized steel in a poorly
ventilated space


You've already made your opinion abundantly clear.

I wouldn't weld *ANYTHING* in a poorly ventilated space.

Maybe you would, and you're projecting..............

  #108  
Old May 3rd 17, 01:30 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 333
Default torque wrench issues

On Tue, 2 May 2017 18:48:54 +0100, "Ian Field"
wrote:



"John B Slocomb" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 1 May 2017 21:14:22 +0100, "Ian Field"
wrote:



wrote in message
...
On Mon, 1 May 2017 07:06:39 -0700 (PDT), wrote:



Whenever you are working with galvanized steel it is important that
you take the necessary steps when prepping the metal before welding.
If you have properly prepped your metal before welding, you will help
reduce your exposure to zinc oxide fumes.

The usually suggested preparation for welding or brazing galvanized
materials is to grind all the galvanizing off!

Welding a joint with zinc still on the area would weaken the weld but
who
am I to suggest that you're right?

Smokers have very high amounts of cadmium in their bodies. If you've
smoked for 50 years you probably have the maximum allowable amount of
cadmium in your body. You can get cadmium in your body by touching it.
The
amount into your plasma is as high as 0.07%. The half-life of cadmium in
the body is about 10 years if memory serves.

But both zinc and cadmium would normally only accumulate to dangerous
levels at a rate that wouldn't harm you until long after you're dead
unless you're a smoker.
Or a careless welder.
Brazing spelter containing cadmium can make you sicker than a dog in
short order if you are breathing the fumes - as can the fumes from
welding galvanized steel. It only takes a few minutes to get you
wretching and puking and aching to the point you almost wish you
could die.

"galvanised" is galvanic protection - which can include any of several
toxic
heavy metals.


While yes, galvanizing is a galvanic protection if you go into a store
and ask for "galvanized iron" you get zinc coated steel.

Some people here seem to think it can only mean zinc.


No, "galvanized", in common U.S. usage, does mean zinc coated.


Etymology is far too complex for Americans to cope with.


Perhaps so. And quite obviously logic is not a subject that the
"British" are familiar with.

I use "British" with some trepidation as I have met with a large
number of folks from the "tiny island nation" and not a single one,
when asked, has ever identified themselves as "Oh, I'm British".
  #109  
Old May 3rd 17, 01:30 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 333
Default torque wrench issues

On Tue, 2 May 2017 19:09:32 +0100, "Ian Field"
wrote:



"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message
news
On 5/1/2017 2:49 PM, Ian Field wrote:

wrote:
On Sun, 30 Apr 2017 21:30:36 +0100, "Ian Field" wrote:

Never heard of any warnings against welding zinc passivated steel -
only
know of cadmium plating being very dangerous.

You will only weld or braze galvanized steel in a poorly ventilated
space ONCE unless you are REALLY stupid.

I have never become aware of the dire consequences of welding zinc plated
that are being spouted here.

"galvanised" can be plated with *ANY* metal that has a higher galvanic
affinity than the host metal. Including cadmium and various other toxic
heavy metals.

Cadmium poisoning is cumulative and has various routes into the body -
its a long slow painful journey to a Darwin award.

For a few years I worked assembling electronic equipment on cadmium
plated chassis - I've seen with my own eyes the extent to which the
plating rubs off on your hands.

But if you're too stupid to take it from someone who's been there -
Darwin awaits you with outstretched arms.


Can you not see your post's internal inconsistency?

You have multiple people who have given citations as well as related
experiences about welding zinc galvanized steel, but you discount them
saying "I have never become aware [of that problem]."


I have done and seen others do; things that they claim are instantly
injurous - at no time have I observed any such effect.

My cites are what I've seen with my own eyes.


But Ian, old chap, when discussing the "ouch-ouch" sickness you state
your reference as "what I read". Now you are claiming "my own eyes" as
a reference. A bit of a disparity there, don't you know.

An old proverb about statistics pretty much says it all. You can present
published papers to say anything you want.


And apparently you are doing just that, "presenting what you want", as
justification for your claims.
  #110  
Old May 3rd 17, 01:30 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 333
Default torque wrench issues

On Tue, 2 May 2017 19:11:29 +0100, "Ian Field"
wrote:



"John B Slocomb" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 01 May 2017 22:25:59 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 1 May 2017 22:00:31 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/1/2017 2:49 PM, Ian Field wrote:

wrote:
On Sun, 30 Apr 2017 21:30:36 +0100, "Ian Field" wrote:

Never heard of any warnings against welding zinc passivated steel -
only
know of cadmium plating being very dangerous.

You will only weld or braze galvanized steel in a poorly ventilated
space ONCE unless you are REALLY stupid.

I have never become aware of the dire consequences of welding zinc
plated that are being spouted here.

"galvanised" can be plated with *ANY* metal that has a higher galvanic
affinity than the host metal. Including cadmium and various other toxic
heavy metals.

Cadmium poisoning is cumulative and has various routes into the body -
its a long slow painful journey to a Darwin award.

For a few years I worked assembling electronic equipment on cadmium
plated chassis - I've seen with my own eyes the extent to which the
plating rubs off on your hands.

But if you're too stupid to take it from someone who's been there -
Darwin awaits you with outstretched arms.

Can you not see your post's internal inconsistency?

You have multiple people who have given citations as well as related
experiences about welding zinc galvanized steel, but you discount them
saying "I have never become aware [of that problem]."

Yet you insult those who YOU think are "too stupid to take it from
someone who's been there..."

Sheesh.
Must be the painted cow's twin brother - - -


Nah, just another old guy with 20 or 30 years in the trade telling you
that you are full of it.


A bit more than that, and more than one trade - one thing you're not full of
is practical experience.


Well, as I've said, I earned my living for forty years doing it. But I
bow to your, obviously, superior knowledge. And your name is
Methuselah, one supposes.

 




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