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More biased "research"! "Woody is a powerful advocate for mountain biker's rights"



 
 
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Old June 1st 08, 06:24 PM posted to alt.mountain-bike,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,sci.environment
Mike Vandeman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,798
Default More biased "research"! "Woody is a powerful advocate for mountain biker's rights"

In case someone cites this guy as some kind of "researcher", as
happened to me, you should know that he is exclusively a mountain
biker and mountain biking advocate. His position on the IMBA Board of
Directors and his being a representative for Kona Bikes say it all. He
is not a "researcher"! He is just a person who read the same "studies"
that I reviewed and debunked in my paper
http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb7. He has never done a lick of
scientific research, and obviously has no understanding of science or
research.

Mike


http://www.americantrails.org/resour...nImpacts.html:

Comparing relative impacts of various trail user groups

A summary of research and studies on factors that affect trails
management strategy and determining uses for each trail.

By Woody Keen
www.traildynamics.com
I am a professional trail builder based in NC and as such I see the
relative impacts of all user groups on a very regular basis. I
recently researched and made comments on this issue for a local state
forest recreational plan and you may use these comments and review of
the research in your efforts there. You will find my comments below
comparing the relative impacts of horses vs. bikes, I hope this is
helpful. Please let me know if I can answer any other questions for
you.
Erosion on a hiking-only trail, the Tennessee Creek Trail in Marin
County, CA

Comparing relative impacts of various trail user groups: The EA
document introduces the concept that different user groups have
varying levels of physical impacts on trails noting that hiking and
biking have similar impacts while horse use has significantly higher
impacts. Unfortunately the document does not really site any specific
research or studies in forming this conclusion and some reviewers of
the EA may read in an opinion based on prejudice instead of reaction
to hard science. As a professional trail designer/builder, perhaps I
have researched this (as it is important to my job) more than the
author of the EA and I can share the research I have re-viewed.

The statements/claims in the EA are certainly well founded and number
of different studies back up the generalizations made.

A 2001 study performed by botanist Richard Reader of the University of
Guelph (Canada) noted that "We've found that hikers have the same
effect as bikers do, regardless of the number of trips along the path.
In reality, both are equally damaging to the environment, but there is
increased trail wear because twice the number of people are now using
the trails." (Impacts of Experimentally Applied Mountain Biking and
Hiking on Vegetation and Soil of a Deciduous Forest - Eden Thurston
and Richard Reader).

A trail impact study from the Aldo Leopold Wilderness Research
Institute comparing hiking impacts to horses and llamas noted: "Horse
traffic resulted in statistically significant higher sediment yields
(the primary indicator of trail deterioration) than either hiker or
llama traffic. The low level (250 passes) horse treatment caused more
impact than the high level (1000 passes) llama treatments, suggesting
that horses can cause at least four times as much impact to trails
under the conditions simulated in this experiment. In addition, under
dry trail conditions horse traffic caused significant reductions in
soil bulk density (a measure of how compacted the soil is) compared to
llama and hiker traffic. Horse traffic also caused significant
increases in soil roughness compared with the other 2 users. This
suggests that the greater impacts of horses on trails is a result of
soil loosening of trail surfaces that are otherwise compacted, thereby
increasing the detachability of soil particles and increasing sediment
yield and erosion." (Llamas, Horses, and Hikers: Do They Cause
Different Amounts of Impact? - Thomas Deluca (University of Montana)
and David Cole (USFS - Wilderness Research Institute) 1998 study)

Don Weir also addresses the differences in compaction of soils by some
users and displacement of soils by others in his book A Guide to the
Impacts of Non-Motorized Trail Use (Don Weir and Associates- Edmonton
Alberta Canada). Weir noted: "Repeated passes by bicycles (and most
other users) tend to compact the soils of a trail tread. Vertical
compaction tends to push particles closer together, thereby increasing
shear strength. An increase in shear strength of the soil will have
greater ability to resist erosive forces."

Weir also notes that: "Research to date has indicated that the degree
of impacts from mountain bikes, relative to those of walkers who have
their own unique forms of impacts, appear to be similar."

The Weir book is a wonderful resource and a great review of the
literature and research available on the subject of trail impacts. It
cites from many studies from around the word on the subject matter
(many of these studies I have complete copies of the research papers).
A few of these notable sources include:

Cessford (1995) asserts that: "Mountain bikers will exert a downward
force through their tyres (translated to tires - Cessford is from New
Zealand)which comprises the wheel load divided by the contact area, is
likely to be less than that of heavier motorized vehicles, horses, and
heavily laden hikers." (Off Road Impacts of Mountain Bikes: A Review
and Discussion, Science and Research - G.R. Cessford, Department of
Conservation Wellington New Zealand).
Weaver and Dale (1978) found that: "During down slope travel, downhill
stepping (by foot and horse) was more erosive than downhill motor
biking." It should be noted that the modern mountain bike did not
exist at the time of this study, but later studies show that mountain
bikes have far less impacts (equal to hiking) as compared with motor
bikes. (Trampling Effects of Hikers, Motorcycles, and Horses in
Meadows and Forests) - T. Weaver and D. Dale - Journal of Applied
Ecology 1978)

In the Executive Summary of Weir's book, he notes that: "Common belief
holds that wheeled vehicles cause new trails to form more readily than
the actions of feet or hooves, thus justifying the allowance of off
trail travel by hikers and equestrians. Yet, erosion studies cited
above, practically Weaver and Dale (1978, Quinn et al (1981), Soanne
et al (1981) and Cole (1987) , suggest that in many places, "feet and
hooves will trample more than bicycle tires. The instantaneous sheer
forces exerted on a plant by a foot or hoof will have much more of a
tearing effect than the rolling over and crushing force of a bicycle
wheel."

Don Weir also explores the effects/impacts of what he refers to as
biological loading" in his book. He notes: "The amount of excreta
produced by user groups is a function of user type and the residence
time the user is in the area. We can hypothesize that equestrians
produce the most amount by mass; then hikers, who have a longer
residence time; and finally the mountain bikers who have the shortest
residence time and therefore are less likely to need to void".

Perhaps the most widely accepted research on trail impacts of
different users is the Seney/Wilson Study as it compared all the user
groups together in one study (hikers, motorcycles, mountain bikes, and
horses). Some of the findings from the Seney/Wilson Study include:

"The sediment yields reported in part B of Table 4 indicates that
horse plots produced significantly more sediment yield than the
bicycle, control, or hiker plots." "Hiker and bicycle plots were not
significantly different from each other or the control plots." "
Indeed, hikers produced the second largest increase in sediment yield
following the horse treatments, and overall the horse and hiker plots
suggest that hooves and feet make more sediment available for removal
than wheels on pre-wetted soils. The results in Part D of Table 4
indicate horse traffic produced significantly more sediment than other
users on dry plots as well". (Erosional Impact of Hikers, Horses,
Motorcycles, and Off Road Bicycles on Mountain Trails in Montana- John
Wilson and Joseph Seney - Mountain Research and Development 1994)

There are numerous other research reports that compare relative
impacts of different user types on soils, vegetation, and trail tread
surfaces. Most of the readers of my comments are likely to be bored by
now as few are as interested in this subject matter as I am. I will
therefore to cease to cite from these various reports and move on.
Suffice it to say however that Dr. Gary Blank was well founded in his
assertion that horses do indeed have a greater impact on trails than
do hikers or mountain bikes.

Observations in the field by a trained eye will report similar results
to the hard science and note that horse damage to trails is easier to
record. This also follows common sense logic; horses will have greater
impacts due to a much higher combined weight (horse with rider)
concentrated into a smaller surface area (four hooves of which not all
four can be on the ground as the horse moves forward, as compared to a
bicycle tire which has a large contact surface area), and horse are
the only trail user with metal (most trail horses are shoed) to trail
tread contact (tires of mountain bikes and shoes on hikers are
rubber).

Despite numerous reports (coming from science and research),
observations and common sense that horses do indeed have much higher
impacts than the other two user groups (hikers and mtn bikes), I am in
no way suggesting that horses be removed from the DuPont State Forest
trail system. To the contrary, I see DSF as being a wonderful and
important resource for equestrian trail users. We do however need to
recognize the greater impacts and make good decisions about which
trails are appropriate for horse use and which ones are not. Trails
identified as not suitable for horses (so as to protect the trail
resources) always have the option of re-location to better alignments
for sustainability and these options should be exercised in DSF when
at all possible.

There are, however, a number of limiting factors on how quickly these
changes can be made: availability of funding resources for
professional trail construction, volunteer efforts on behalf of the
equestrian community, cooperation with other users on volunteer
projects to improve trail conditions for all users to name a few.
Perhaps a long-term goal for the trail system at DSF could be to
maximize the trail mileage for each user group (to provide for
abundant recreational opportunities and have a very positive effect on
the local economy) while minimizing impacts to the natural resources
through good management decisions and sustainable trail development
practices.

I believe that in addition to relative impacts, there are a number of
factors that should be taken into consideration in the trails
management strategy and determining trail uses for each trail in DSF.
Certainly the relative impacts of user types needs to be considered
and impacts monitored to make resource protection decisions. Other
factors include:

1. Need and demand for trail resources. The EA pointed out that the
Southern Appalachian Assessment of 1996 concluded that recreational
opportunities in natural appearing and remote settings were abundant
with exceptions for mountain biking and horseback riding (and other
uses not allowed in DSF). This report seems to indicate that hiking
opportunities were ample and not limited in any way. Taking this into
consideration, perhaps an emphasis needs to be placed on developing
sustainable recreational opportunities for those trail activities
being generally under served (horseback riding and mountain biking).

2. Contributions of the various user groups giving back to the trail
system (sweat equity). Equestrians and mountain bikers have led the
charge of volunteer projects much more so than hikers. In fact, hiking
groups are not working in the forest as a user group except working
with and under the supervision of mountain bike leaders. The typical
public FODF workday profile is: Blue Ridge Bike Club members providing
the leadership and knowledge as well as club owned tools, 75- 90%
workers from the mountain bike community and a small fraction coming
from the hiking community. The equestrian community holds its own
separate workdays with the leadership coming from the Pisgah
Trailblazers and this group has been fairly consistent in holding work
weekends from the forest inception to present.

The focus of projects by different groups has been quite different.
The hiking community has no projects located in DSF they can call
their own, and have only contributed some (but limited help) to the
mountain bike community based projects. Projects performed under the
leadership of the mountain bike community have focused on the
following trail tread improvements: providing for better drainage for
trails to control water issues (adding grade dips and knicks to poorly
designed trails, all over the forest on many trails), armoring steep
sections of trail to protect the native soils from erosion (Longside
Trail, Cedar Rock Trail, Burnt Mountain, bottom of Jim Branch Trail),
designing and building sustainable new trails and re-locations for
poorly designed trails (Galax Trail, Reasonover Creek trail re-route
during the IMBA Epic, Hickory Mountain Trail re-route at the old rifle
range, the new addition to the Airstrip Trail, Pine Tree Extension
from Staton Road to Sheep Mountain, the Switchback Trail),
construction of needed trail structures (switchbacks like those found
on the Galax trail) and providing for educational opportunities for
all trail users though public trail schools.

Imaging what DuPont's trail system would look like without these
significant contributions and improvements from the mountain bike
community is daunting and needless to say there would have been a much
larger impact on the resources (soil loss due to erosion) without
these projects. The equestrian projects in the forest seem to focus on
quite different projects: corridor clearing (brushing back of trails),
work around the barn area (weed eating and cutting grass, fence work
on the paddocks, fireplace ring and wood storage), signing and marking
trails in the earlier stages of development, providing horse tie outs
at key attractions to protect the trees, and some (but limited)
drainage work on bad mud hole areas such as Turkey Knob trail. No
doubt these have been important contributions to the forest and
projects that forest staff would have likely not been able to
accomplish without the help. However, due to the cited greater impacts
to trail tread surface caused by horse use there should be a suggested
shift and more energy could be directed at mitigating impacts by
contributing more to trail tread related projects (perhaps working
with the mountain bike community who are educated and experienced in
this type of work).

3. Numbers of users within the various user groups and predicted
future use patterns as compared with needed trail mileage for average
length of stay. A number of sources have indicated that DSF averages
3000-5000 visitors per week. The EA document (and Trails Master Plan)
breaks down the visitation into the most common forms of recreation:
hiking (57%), mountain biking (25%), horseback riding (7%) and trail
running (5%). National statistics find that there are the following
numbers of trail users in America: 73.3 million hikers, 43.1 million
single track mountain bikers, and 4.3 million horse back riders
(sources: Outdoor Industry Association 2003 Participation Study and
the American Horseman's Council).

All of these could certainly be broken down into sub categories, but
perhaps the most important split would be looking at causal walkers
(the typical waterfall tourist) differently from serious hikers.
Hikers and walkers need the least amount of trail to make an outing
experience due to the slower pace of travel and average time spent in
the forest. Trail runners can range from those just catching a
one-hour workout traveling an average of 4-6 miles to long distance
backcountry runners who travel distances and speeds more similar to
mountain bikers. The Trails Master Plan Survey found that mountain
bikers and equestrians had the longest average stay as compared with
other users and also traveled more trail distance per visit. All of
this information can be used in the planning process and trails
management to make sure each user group has ample trail mileage to
accommodate desired experiences.


http://www.imba.com/contacts/board.html:

Board Of Directors

Woody Keen
Cedar Mountain, NC


Woody Keen, Cedar Mountain, North Carolina. Woody has been a leading
mountain bike advocate for more than a decade. Keen and his wife JoJo
were instrumental in creating the top-notch mountain bike trail system
in the Dupont (North Carolina) State Forest, where he continues to
serve as the volunteer trails coordinator. Keen is co-owner of a
full-service trailbuilding company, Trail Dynamics. He has a special
interest in creating sustainable freeriding opportunities.


http://www.appvoices.org/index.php?/...l l/issue/541

Local mountain bike advocate Woody Keen, who also serves on the board
for FODF, echoes her sentiments. “Everyone had to roll up their
sleeves to get this done. It’s not too often you can beat big money
development.”


http://www.blueridgebicycleclub.org/topten.html:


Mountain Bikers - Top Ten Reasons Why You Should Join The BRBC

by Woody Keen

Greetings fellow bicyclists,

Recently there has been much discussion about a whether the list
server should be open or closed to nonmembers. As you know, the
officers voted to keep this service open to all. We would, however,
like to take a moment to remind you of what the club has accomplished,
and why you should support our efforts through your membership. I am
only a mountain biker, so I can only focus on that. Perhaps someone
else can contribute what we have done in the road bike area.

As a mountain biker, you really would not have anywhere to ride your
bike without the efforts of the BRBC. This is not just a cliché, but
in fact quite true. All the local mountain bike trails are open to you
because of the efforts of the club and its members. Let's take a
closer look. Here are the top ten reasons to join the BRBC if you are
a mountain biker.
Pisgah National Forest. All of the current trails open to bikes were
the result of BRBC input back in the late 1980s. Early mountain bike
guru Ed Erwin worked with other mountain bikers to represent the BRBC
and the mountain bike community in influencing the USDA Forest Service
(formerly called the USFS) to open up trails to bikes. This effort was
quite successful, and today most of these early designations still
stand. Over half of all trails in the Pisgah district are open to
bikes. This is many more than any other USFS district in western North
Carolina. In the district where the Tsali trail is, the four loops in
that system are the only single-track trails legal to ride on. In
Pisgah, you have many more choices than that. This abundance of great
riding comes to you via the hard work of the BRBC and its members.
Dupont State Forest. Almost all trails in Dupont are open to bikes,
thanks to the early efforts of Chuck Ramsey, and later, yours truly.
Chuck served on the Advisory Committee from day one, representing
mountain bikers. I was invited to join that committee later. Chuck and
I hosted trail workdays on behalf of the BRBC. We worked with other
trail users from the very beginning of the development of that forest.
To this day, the mountain bike community has a very large voice with
land managers in Dupont. As you know, a 2200 acre tract of land was
threatened with development in the heart of the forest. BRBC members
worked with equestrians and Sierra Club members to keep this travesty
from happening. We were successful in our efforts, and today there is
a playground of over 10,000 acres with 80+ miles of trail, thanks in
part to the BRBC.
Alexander Mountain Bike Facility - Buncombe County. This was a project
that was headed up by the WNC Bicycle Dealers Association, working
with RTP grant money to make this a reality. The idea was to have a
venue to put on races close to Asheville, but also provide another
place to ride and train. The BRBC provided much of the labor to make
the trails there a reality, and many hours of seat equity were poured
into this system. Perhaps this is not an ideal place to ride. However,
any open trail is better than a closed one. It also served its purpose
in terms of a race venue, which was good because there was nowhere to
do so (USFS will not issue a permit for such) and it reduced possible
impact to already heavily used trails.
Richmond Hill - Asheville City Parks. When Asheville announced a new
city park, they also contacted the BRBC about developing a trail
network for mountain bikes. In fact, mountain bike trails and disc
golf were the only two uses the city really wanted to develop in this
new park. Without an organized club such as the BRBC, the trails there
would not have been open to bikes. Land managers want to deal with
groups of users, not individuals. I have only been to Richmond Hill
once, but I see great potential for this in-town ride venue.
Linear Wildlife Openings in Pisgah. As you know, the USFS closed off
25 miles of road to mountain bikes and horses. These roads were gated
off to create what they call Linear Wildlife Openings. The BRBC
(though members Julie White, Chuck Ramsey, JoJo and Woody Keen)
appealed the decision and showed that we are a force to reckon with.
The BRBC lost its appeal, but I can assure you we would have had many
more of these gated roads without the input and voice we had during
the process.
Trail Schools. The BRBC has helped to host two IMBA trail building
schools in Dupont State Forest. A write-up on one of our schools is
available online at the IMBA website. In both of these schools, the
mountain bike community proved to other trail users that we care
deeply about the trails we use, and showed our pledge to improve them.
Everyone attending both schools learned a lot. We established that
mountain bikers more often than not have great knowledge about
sustainable trail design and building, as well as proper maintenance
techniques. Because of these two schools in Dupont, land managers
there see us as the experts, and you do not find non-mountain bike
friendly structures popping up on trails (such as ugly non-functional
water bars).
IMBA Epics. In fall of 2001, the BRBC hosted an IMBA Epic Ride in
Dupont. This highlighted the fact that we have great riding in the
area, and are willing to share with others. A full write-up on the
Dupont Epic is online at the IMBA website. The Epic we held was the
first really big Epic IMBA had ever held; over 70 riders participated.
To this day, it was one of the most successful. We had a fun work
project which yielded a great trail, and we followed it up with a
wonderful ride. The 35 mile route is clearly one of the best long
rides in the area. All of this was possible because of the BRBC and
its dedicated mountain bike members.
Tool grants. As we all know, working on trails is our insurance policy
for being able to ride them. It is referred to as sweat equity.
Indeed, without it, you would have nowhere to ride that expensive
mountain bike. The club has funded tools out of the general budget,
but has also been successful at getting grants to purchase tools. We
received a $3,000 tool grant several years ago, and this allowed us to
purchase enough hand tools to outfit several crews. Without the club,
we would not have all the nice dirt digging tools that the BRBC now
owns.
Dingo purchase. Speaking of dirt digging tools, the Dingo is the “mack
daddy” tool. It will allow us to do much more than we could ever
accomplish using hand tools. We have many new trails for Dupont and
other areas, and the Dingo will help see these dreams become
realities. Without the pledge from club funds, the Dingo purchase
(using grant money) would not have happened.
Regular Club Sponsored Mountain Bike Rides. BRBC trail rides have been
happening for many years, and Jeremy Arnold has cranked up the volume
here recently. These rides are a great way to learn new loops and meet
other cool dirt-heads.
There you have it: ten concrete reasons why you should be a member of
the BRBC. It is easy and fun to be a member. The application form is
online at the BRBC website. Even if you are not a "club person", you
can support our efforts with your $25 membership and do nothing else.
If you are reading this and own a mountain bike, you are indeed
benefiting from the ongoing efforts of the club. We need your support
to accomplish even more great projects in the upcoming year. Whether
you ride a $300 or $3000 bike, membership in the BRBC is a cheap
investment to keep you rolling out in the dirt.

Woody Keen


Home | Top | Mail

© Blue Ridge Bicycle Club Inc. 2004


http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=23323:

Greetings all,

Sorry for such a delayed response to Jeremy's question, I have been
busy and
have not had a chance to find out the answer. I finally spoke to
District
Ranger Randy Burgess last night and we chated for quite some time
including
discusion on Farlow Gap trail. I had noticed that it did not show up
on the
quaterly review for proposed projects and was afraid the decision had
been
made.

I was plesantly surprised to learn the Randy had pulled it from the
proposals list and that means that Farlow Gap will remain open to
bikes.
This issue started when a hiker was aparently run off the trail by a
mtn
biker and filed an official compaint with the USFS. Rnady told me that
he
and his family had also had one bad encounter with riders going to
fast on
another trail in Pisgah when they were out hiking one day. He did tell
me
that all other encounters with bikers were positive and he noted that
if
hikers are looking to get away from mtn bikes that there were plenty
of
hiking only trails providing that experience.

Randy is a really good guy and rides a mtn bike a little bit. We have
a
meeting set up for next week at Bent Creek and he noted he may bring
his
bike if we promised not to laugh at him.

Way too many of you reading this contribute very little to the local
mtn
bike advocacy efforts. I will ask of three things of you moving
forward:

1. Every reaction you have with other trail users(horses and hikers)
is an
opportunity to make an impression, make it a positive one by slowing
down,
yielding the trail if needed and talking with other trail users. Ask
them
how thier hike is, talk about the good weather, warn them of any
hazards
ahead and tell them to have a nice day. This simple action will
continue to
help secure our riding priviliages for years to come.

2. Come out and do some trailwork once in a while. The last 2 years
have
really taking a toll on local trails with lots of rain and increased
trail
use. As a mtn bike community, we need to make sure we are giving back
to the
trail systems that we enjoy so much.

3.Join BRBC. Our local club needs your support and we are always
working
hard to improve riding conditions (both mtn and road) for locals and
visitors alike. We can't do it without your support. Ask at your local
bike
shop how you can join the club and get involved.

Woody Keen- BRBC Trails Resource Director


http://www.konaeurope.com/advocacy/p.../profiles.htm:

Woody Keen - Southeast Kona Rep
Woody is based in North Carolina and has worked for Kona since 1995.
He is a an active member of the Blue Ridge Bike Club, IMBA, the Sierra
Club, Southern Utah Wilderness Alliance, The Conservation Network,
Carolina Mountain Land Conservancy, The Access Fund, Foothills Trail
Conference, and the Friends of Dupont Forest.

Woody and his local club hosted a very successful IMBA Trail School In
March 2001, with over 70 attendees, and were chosen to host an IMBA
EPIC Ride in October 2001. In the Spring of 2000, Woody helped formed
Friends of the Falls, a grassroots group fighting a gated housing
development located within a state forest. The area has incredible
trails highlighted by spectacular waterfalls, some of which were
featured in the Last of the Mohicans feature film. After a 6 month
struggle and campaign the state acquired the land in question through
eminent domain and it is now a playground for all outdoor enthusiasts
instead of houses and country clubs.

Woody is a powerful advocate for mountain biker's rights. He says: "If
you think advocacy work doesn't pay off, think again. I would be happy
to take you for a ride in the Falls area and prove you wrong. I am
thrilled to see smiles of faces of everyone who comes here. It is
truly a Mecca for mountain biking and other trail users.

"We have to give back to the trails we use. I enjoy teachingpeople how
to build and maintain sustainable trails. I do volunteer work with
Boy/Girl Scouts, local summer camps, college and universities, and the
Blue Ridge Bike Club/Friends of Dupont Forest. Everyone enjoys getting
dirty, they just need to learn how to do it in a productive way. I
also do a fair bit of work by myself, I probably have 500 hours in
since the first of the year. There is nothing better than riding a
section of trail that you built. While others just breeze by
unknowingly; you study the drainages, crib walls, sweeping turns,
swithbacks and marvel and the beauty of full bench cuts."

"I was first attracted to Kona due to their advocacy efforts, the Buck
a Bike program was very cool. I could only work for a company who
gives back as much as Kona does. I used to own a rock climbing
equipment supplier and when I sold that I got into the bike industry
to have fun. Kona is all about having fun. And of course Kona bikes
are numero uno."
--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
Ads
  #2  
Old June 2nd 08, 01:36 AM posted to alt.mountain-bike,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,sci.environment
Siskuwihane[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 534
Default Mike Can't Get A Woody.

On Jun 1, 1:24*pm, Mike Vandeman wrote:


Sorry to hear you can't make children.
  #3  
Old June 2nd 08, 03:57 PM posted to alt.mountain-bike,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,sci.environment
Mike Vandeman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,798
Default Mike Can't Get A Woody.

On Sun, 1 Jun 2008 17:36:43 -0700 (PDT), Siskuwihane
wrote:

On Jun 1, 1:24*pm, Mike Vandeman wrote:


Sorry to hear you can't make children.


Liar.
--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
  #4  
Old June 2nd 08, 09:18 PM posted to alt.mountain-bike,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,sci.environment
Siskuwihane[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 534
Default Mike Can't Get A Woody.

On Jun 2, 10:57*am, Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Sun, 1 Jun 2008 17:36:43 -0700 (PDT), Siskuwihane

wrote:
On Jun 1, 1:24*pm, Mike Vandeman wrote:


Sorry to hear you can't make children.


Liar.


Straight from the horses ass...

Michael J. Vandeman wrote:

"I agree, which is why I have a vasectomy & no kids. But that has
nothing to do with mountain biking."


http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...58ef591b58ea7?...


 




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