Groupsets

On 6/5/2020 10:26 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 5, 2020 at 10:16:26 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, June 5, 2020 at 9:41:47 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, June 5, 2020 at 5:54:54 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/4/2020 9:54 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 5:38:21 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/4/2020 6:19 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

DT shifters and five speed are fashion -- conspicuous contrarianism.

Really? At what point in time did my good friend, who has ridden her
Trek since the 1980s, transition from "I just love this bike" to "I'm
only doing this to be contrarian"?

I use all my 11 cassette cogs. I could give one up, but why? My little lunch ride today was our standard loop of 16 miles and 1600 feet of climbing, full speed trying to keep up with my buddy. Except for the roll into town (to see the post-riot damage), everything was some degree of up or down. I shifted my way nicely up and down the cassette, enjoying each and every cog.

I'm glad you love those cute little things, but: What did you have
before the 11? Was it a 10? Was there really a time you said "Damn, I
just hate that there are only ten cogs back there! When, oh when, will
they invent an 11?"

I doubt it. You probably told your ten cogs "You are all individuals,
but I love each of you equally!"

Seriously, I _never_ heard a cyclist complain about having the maximum
number of cogs then on the market. But every time the industry did the
N+1 move, there was quiet pride by the new owners who showed off their
N+1 and slight envy by the guys who had only N.

That was GM's 1960s tactic: "Wouldn't you rather have THIS year's model?"


You have all these imagined scenarios. I don't know anyone who went out and bought 11sp simply because it became available. I was riding 10sp until my wife drove my Supersix under a low overhang when it was up on a roof rack. I also had 10sp on my CAAD 9, but that went off to Utah with my son. I know I had some eight speed shifters, and I think I put those on my sons old beater Windsor. My first STI bike was eight speed.

I had 9 speed on my commuter, but I wanted to shift to hydraulic discs, so I went to 11sp. That was probably a mistake, and I should have found some 9speed hydraulic levers. Shimano does make them. So I have some redundant 9sp Tiagra levers sitting in a box downstairs.

I had 7 speed on my old touring bike, which I did upgrade to eight speed STI because the bike was spec'd with bar-ends, which I hate. I gave that bike away. My tandem had seven or eight speed ERGO. I sold that. I have one-speed on my track bike.

Anyway, the difference between 10 and 11 is, of course, one. I was riding 10sp 12-25/26 cassette, so I got a 28 on the 11sp. I like that 28 a lot these days. And I get to keep all my close range gears. What's not to like?

Jay, I'm not saying masses of people threw away 10 speed bikes when 11s
came out.

But I am saying that if someone drove into a garage and wrecked an 8
speed they never complained about, they would buy a 9 speed to replace
it. Repeat for 10, 11 and now perhaps 12.

The important point is this: They were not unhappy with N gears until
N+1 came out. But by golly, when the opportunity arose, they would find
some way to justify N+1.

They just went with the flow. It is easier today to get 11 speed stuff then 7 speed. Don't over analyze this.

Lou

I had to go with 11 speeds because getting 10 speed stuff was more expensive. Shimano isn't rebuildable so the 10 speed stuff is throw-away and the Campy parts to rebuild the levers was getting scarce.

The one weakness of the Shimano Dura Ace 11 appears to be that it doesn't have a cable adjuster for the front derailleur and it is a real bear to get exactly the right cable tension.

I don't get that. You can always put in an in-line barrel adjuster, no? Is there something about Dura Ace that prevents that?

Is this a Shimano thing or a frame thing?

My Trek Domane (originally Ultegra equipped) came stock with a barrel
adjuster installed, since it has internal cabling and no "stops" where a
more traditional adjuster could go.

I've since converted it to Campy, pretty sure I still needed the barrel
adjuster.

Mark J.

On 6/5/2020 1:30 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 5, 2020 at 12:55:32 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
writes:

On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 6:33:04 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
writes:

On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 12:30:27 AM UTC-7, Dennis Davis wrote:
In article ,
jbeattie wrote:

...

I think that the curmudgeon handbook, chapter six, has a lengthy
discussion of the benefits of DT friction shifters. IIRC,
they a (1) slow and imprecise shifting, (2) missed shifts,
(3) conspicuous contrarianism, (4) longevity like an incurable
skin condition, (5) inconvenient location, and (6) conspicuous
contrarianism. Clearly superior to any STI/Ergo like system.

A double dose of "conspicuous contrarianism" ("3" and "6"). Isn't
that overkill?

Perhaps (6) is better replaced by:

(6) Requires levels of skill not present in modern cyclists.


...I'm planning to put some Simplex Retrofriction downtube levers on
my next bike...
--
Dennis Davis

I think more accurate would be "requires total lack of skills that
modern cyclists have." Anyone that rides downtube shifters or
centerpull brakes in this day and age is either penniless or stupid or
both.

Thanks, Tom. I'm not penniless, I must be stupid.

Then explain how you have a downtube shifter bike? Unless you make a
effort to collect classic bikes you can't even find downtube shifters
anymore. I had a hard enough time getting bar ends for my touring
bike. And I've never even used it and it is sitting in the backyard

I bought one in 1978, still ride it. Some parts are new.

Wow, all my road bikes from the '70s broke or got stolen -- or both. I still have a '72 Raleigh Pro track bike, but it doesn't have shifters. I have some Campy shifters sitting around from the '70s, and I may turn them into key fobs, or I could glue them to the downtube on my commuter bike and pretend to shift. I hear that will give me superior bike handling skills. They'd probably loosen up even if I glued them on.

-- Jay Beattie.

Little known fact, Tie fighters had Campy Nuovo Record shift levers.

Look here at 0:52
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuKqcfO31is

You can clearly see Darth Vader tighten the D-rings.

Mark J.

On 6/5/2020 8:31 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/5/2020 7:32 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Wed, 3 Jun 2020 16:28:48 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
:

On 6/3/2020 3:33 PM, wrote:
The end result would be a shifting/braking system that
has extremely light touch without ever having to
recharge a battery. What do you gain by electronic
shifting other than automatic compensation for front
chain-line?

I'm puzzled by the high value some people place on a
"light touch,"
whether braking or shifting. ISTM light acting controls
are a benefit
only up to a point.

Of course. But light acting doesn't come for free with
mechanical
devices.

I own and ride a road bike equipped with a an Ultegra 3x10
group from
2010 (6703, AFAIR) and I'm quite happy with it. Changing
gears ist
easy, fast and works like a charm. Except when it it
doesn't. Problem
is, the construction is a mechanical nightmare. I bought
it specifically
because both cables (bowden cable?), both those for
braking and those
for changing gears are routed along the handle bar, so
that there is
enough space between the handles to moutn a large Ortlieb
handlebar bag.
Have look at
https://pluspora.com/posts/296e60b0625701384a38005056264835,
fifth
picture or
https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/20200416/DSC01809.jpg


Changing the inner cable is difficult, when one of the
wires is already
broken. Somehow I damaged an tiny spring while removing
the old cable.
In consequence, the whole expensive grip had to be replaced.
Unfortunately, this happended a few days before heading to
the south of
france for an already booked holiday resort. Problem:
Shimano doesn't
sell that part, anymore, none of our local shops had one
in stock, the
national distributor didn't, either, there aren't any
compatible parts,
neither cheaper nor more expensive ones (neither 105 nor
tiagra are
compatible). After some frantic phone calls, in the very
last minute,
I got a shop who had the part and could be talked into
installing it
(with more time, I'd preferred to install it myself). Pfffht.

So now I own a bike with a very precious shifter, which
works quite well
as long as it lasts.

A year before, during a long vaccation in france, one of
my sons visited
for a few days. For two days, he rent a road bike (a worn
BMC, if I
remember right) equipped with an old Verision of a Di2
group. I took the
opportunity to ride it too for a while, and was surprised
how well and
smoothly it worked.

These parts are certainly expensive, mostly because
Shimano is able to
charge that much money for it, not because these are
complicated. IMHO,
these are much simpler machines than the purely mechanical
6703 parts.

I'm currently not going to buy a new bike, but when I do,
i'll consider
a Di2 group, mostly because it's a much more robust
construct. Some
goodies like some automatic shifting are welcome too, though.

But mainly, I'd really like to get rid of all those
arkwardly routed
cables, which break much to often.

Interesting. I have always used large handlebar bags on
(almost) all bikes. I prefer bar-end shifters, but I route
the cables under the handlebar tape, which is not the
default choice. But I don't have any problem with excess
lever force.

I'm sympathetic toward your problem of exotic parts and
expensive replacements. I greatly prefer mechanical
simplicity, and devices I can easily understand, strip and
fix in the middle of nowhere. That still keeps me away from
STI and di2.

I recently read in _Bicycle Quarterly_ magazine about a bike
tour in the remote Andes mountains. The tourists arrived
with brand new bikes with di2 shifting. In the remote
village where they started, they learned one bike's rear
derailleur did not work. One guy worked for hours with no
success, no idea of what was wrong. Next day he made a phone
call to a shop thousands of miles away and was given some
tricks to try. Fortunately, one of them worked. If it
hadn't, the trip might have been canceled.

I doubt I'll tour the Andes, but I don't want to be even 20
miles from home and have problems like that.



Agreed, poor planning. There are places where you can't even
flash the system software, a trivial setup step here.

Note that I'm not dissing Di2 or any electronic system but
there are places where it's not the best choice. Along
those same lines, the farther you get from our consumer
society the most common tire/tube available is 26-decimal.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 6/4/2020 12:02 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/4/2020 11:43 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/4/2020 10:48 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 3, 2020 at 7:12:54 PM UTC-7, Frank
Krygowski wrote:

Adjusting pads is sort of a side issue, since I was
talking only about
force on the controls. Although to me, not needing to
adjust hydraulic
disc pads is kind of balanced by needing to prissily
clean things with
cotton swabs when replacing pads.

I don't clean my disc calipers with cotton swabs.Â* I just
drop in a set of pads.

Admittedly, I haven't done it because I don't use those
brakes. But these guys
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQXFFgRButoÂ* seem to say
it's important to get the Q-tips out. See about 2:20 and
about 3:20 onward.

Is that only for super grungy brakes?


No Q-tips on shop time. We use auto disc brake cleaner (which is dirt
cheap) in refillable sprayers with a clean wiper, compressed air to finish.

Yow! Do you have a vent hood in the shop? That stuff's pretty toxic, I
believe.

I'll admit I use it too, but only outdoors, and any rags used get
quarantined outdoors too until they "outgas."

Mark J.

On 6/5/2020 9:46 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/5/2020 8:31 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/5/2020 7:32 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Wed, 3 Jun 2020 16:28:48 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
:

On 6/3/2020 3:33 PM, wrote:
The end result would be a shifting/braking system that
has extremely light touch without ever having to
recharge a battery. What do you gain by electronic
shifting other than automatic compensation for front
chain-line?

I'm puzzled by the high value some people place on a
"light touch,"
whether braking or shifting. ISTM light acting controls
are a benefit
only up to a point.

Of course. But light acting doesn't come for free with
mechanical
devices.

I own and ride a road bike equipped with a an Ultegra 3x10
group from
2010 (6703, AFAIR) and I'm quite happy with it.Â* Changing
gears ist
easy, fast and works like a charm. Except when it it
doesn't.Â* Problem
is, the construction is a mechanical nightmare. I bought
it specifically
because both cables (bowden cable?), both those for
braking and those
for changing gears are routed along the handle bar, so
that there is
enough space between the handles to moutn a large Ortlieb
handlebar bag.
Have look at
https://pluspora.com/posts/296e60b0625701384a38005056264835,
fifth
picture or
https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/20200416/DSC01809.jpg


Changing the inner cable is difficult, when one of the
wires is already
broken. Somehow I damaged an tiny spring while removing
the old cable.
In consequence, the whole expensive grip had to be replaced.
Unfortunately, this happended a few days before heading to
the south of
france for an already booked holiday resort.Â* Problem:
Shimano doesn't
sell that part, anymore, none of our local shops had one
in stock, the
national distributor didn't, either, there aren't any
compatible parts,
neither cheaper nor more expensive ones (neither 105 nor
tiagra are
compatible).Â*Â* After some frantic phone calls, in the very
last minute,
I got a shop who had the part and could be talked into
installing it
(with more time, I'd preferred to install it myself). Pfffht.

So now I own a bike with a very precious shifter, which
works quite well
as long as it lasts.

A year before, during a long vaccation in france, one of
my sons visited
for a few days.Â* For two days, he rent a road bike (a worn
BMC, if I
remember right) equipped with an old Verision of a Di2
group. I took the
opportunity to ride it too for a while, and was surprised
how well and
smoothly it worked.

These parts are certainly expensive, mostly because
Shimano is able to
charge that much money for it, not because these are
complicated. IMHO,
these are much simpler machines than the purely mechanical
6703 parts.

I'm currently not going to buy a new bike, but when I do,
i'll consider
a Di2 group, mostly because it's a much more robust
construct.Â* Some
goodies like some automatic shifting are welcome too, though.

But mainly, I'd really like to get rid of all those
arkwardly routed
cables, which break much to often.

Interesting. I have always used large handlebar bags on
(almost) all bikes. I prefer bar-end shifters, but I route
the cables under the handlebar tape, which is not the
default choice. But I don't have any problem with excess
lever force.

I'm sympathetic toward your problem of exotic parts and
expensive replacements. I greatly prefer mechanical
simplicity, and devices I can easily understand, strip and
fix in the middle of nowhere. That still keeps me away from
STI and di2.

I recently read in _Bicycle Quarterly_ magazine about a bike
tour in the remote Andes mountains. The tourists arrived
with brand new bikes with di2 shifting. In the remote
village where they started, they learned one bike's rear
derailleur did not work. One guy worked for hours with no
success, no idea of what was wrong. Next day he made a phone
call to a shop thousands of miles away and was given some
tricks to try. Fortunately, one of them worked. If it
hadn't, the trip might have been canceled.

I doubt I'll tour the Andes, but I don't want to be even 20
miles from home and have problems like that.



Agreed, poor planning. There are places where you can't even flash the
system software, a trivial setup step here.

Note that I'm not dissing Di2 or any electronic system but there are
places where it's not the best choice.Â* Along those same lines, the
farther you get from our consumer society the most common tire/tube
available is 26-decimal.

Yep. On our coast-to-coast, my daughter got a 3/4" slice through her
Terry front tire. That tire was really rare, something like 24" x 1". In
North Dakota, replacements just didn't exist.

We got by with lots of booting, stitching and next day air shipping to a
bike shop hundreds of miles away. But we should have carried a spare.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Friday, June 5, 2020 at 8:16:16 PM UTC+2, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 05.06.2020 um 17:54 schrieb Frank Krygowski:
Anyway, the difference between 10 and 11 is, of course, one. I was
riding 10sp 12-25/26 cassette, so I got a 28 on the 11sp.Â* I like that
28 a lot these days. And I get to keep all my close range gears.
What's not to like?

But I am saying that if someone drove into a garage and wrecked an 8
speed they never complained about, they would buy a 9 speed to replace
it. Repeat for 10, 11 and now perhaps 12.

Actually, 10 years ago a bike dealer strongly recommended to my wife to
put 3 x 8 rather than 3 x 9 on her quite expensive bike, due to
longevity of the chain.
The low-end gravel bike I bought last week even haS 2 x 8 (with a 450%
range form 34 - 34 to 50 - 11).

Rolf

A gravel bike bought last week 2*8? That is odd. What shifters are on that bike?

Lou

On Saturday, June 6, 2020 at 2:40:59 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/5/2020 12:41 PM, wrote:
On Friday, June 5, 2020 at 5:54:54 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/4/2020 9:54 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 5:38:21 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/4/2020 6:19 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

DT shifters and five speed are fashion -- conspicuous contrarianism..

Really? At what point in time did my good friend, who has ridden her
Trek since the 1980s, transition from "I just love this bike" to "I'm
only doing this to be contrarian"?

I use all my 11 cassette cogs. I could give one up, but why? My little lunch ride today was our standard loop of 16 miles and 1600 feet of climbing, full speed trying to keep up with my buddy. Except for the roll into town (to see the post-riot damage), everything was some degree of up or down. I shifted my way nicely up and down the cassette, enjoying each and every cog.

I'm glad you love those cute little things, but: What did you have
before the 11? Was it a 10? Was there really a time you said "Damn, I
just hate that there are only ten cogs back there! When, oh when, will
they invent an 11?"

I doubt it. You probably told your ten cogs "You are all individuals,
but I love each of you equally!"

Seriously, I _never_ heard a cyclist complain about having the maximum
number of cogs then on the market. But every time the industry did the
N+1 move, there was quiet pride by the new owners who showed off their
N+1 and slight envy by the guys who had only N.

That was GM's 1960s tactic: "Wouldn't you rather have THIS year's model?"


You have all these imagined scenarios. I don't know anyone who went out and bought 11sp simply because it became available. I was riding 10sp until my wife drove my Supersix under a low overhang when it was up on a roof rack. I also had 10sp on my CAAD 9, but that went off to Utah with my son.. I know I had some eight speed shifters, and I think I put those on my sons old beater Windsor. My first STI bike was eight speed.

I had 9 speed on my commuter, but I wanted to shift to hydraulic discs, so I went to 11sp. That was probably a mistake, and I should have found some 9speed hydraulic levers. Shimano does make them. So I have some redundant 9sp Tiagra levers sitting in a box downstairs.

I had 7 speed on my old touring bike, which I did upgrade to eight speed STI because the bike was spec'd with bar-ends, which I hate. I gave that bike away. My tandem had seven or eight speed ERGO. I sold that. I have one-speed on my track bike.

Anyway, the difference between 10 and 11 is, of course, one. I was riding 10sp 12-25/26 cassette, so I got a 28 on the 11sp. I like that 28 a lot these days. And I get to keep all my close range gears. What's not to like?

Jay, I'm not saying masses of people threw away 10 speed bikes when 11s
came out.

But I am saying that if someone drove into a garage and wrecked an 8
speed they never complained about, they would buy a 9 speed to replace
it. Repeat for 10, 11 and now perhaps 12.

The important point is this: They were not unhappy with N gears until
N+1 came out. But by golly, when the opportunity arose, they would find
some way to justify N+1.

They just went with the flow. It is easier today to get 11 speed stuff then 7 speed. Don't over analyze this.

But for many, many cyclists the 'analyzing' amounts to "Do I need a new
bike because I have less than 11 cogs? Do I need a new bike because mine
has downtube shifters?" And their answer is "No, I like my bike fine. It
works for me." IOW, they made a rational decision based on the
advantages of what's new vs. the disadvantages of spending for a new bike..

But Jay has said those people are motivated by conspicuous
contrarianism, which is false. You have implied those people are in
danger in traffic, or ... what? When they race in The Hell of the North?
That just doesn't matter to most people.

Fact is, there are countless people who have bikes they loved in 1985,
and they still love those bikes. They should not be mocked or made
nervous about their safety. If their stuff works for them, leave them
alone.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Should be mocked or made nervous about their safety? You draw strange conclusions. I never said or implied that. I only said that their are situations that it is not wise to shift with a DT shifter and it doesn't matter with a brifter. If you don't shift in that situation you are not in danger with DT shifter. You implied that people that are using brifters lack the riding skills to ride with only one hand on the handlebar. That is utter nonsense.. Everbody can ride with only one hand on the handlebar riding straight on good pavement.

Lou

On Saturday, June 6, 2020 at 2:46:29 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/5/2020 3:59 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/5/2020 1:16 PM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 05.06.2020 um 17:54 schrieb Frank Krygowski:
Anyway, the difference between 10 and 11 is, of course,
one. I was riding 10sp 12-25/26 cassette, so I got a 28
on the 11sp.ÂÂ* I like that 28 a lot these days. And I get
to keep all my close range gears. What's not to like?

But I am saying that if someone drove into a garage and
wrecked an 8 speed they never complained about, they would
buy a 9 speed to replace it. Repeat for 10, 11 and now
perhaps 12.

Actually, 10 years ago a bike dealer strongly recommended to
my wife to put 3 x 8 rather than 3 x 9 on her quite
expensive bike, due to longevity of the chain.
The low-end gravel bike I bought last week even haS 2 x 8
(with a 450% range form 34 - 34 to 50 - 11).

Rolf

We still build the occasional compact 7 and 3x7 expedition touring bikes
for the same reason- 7 chain is much more durable and field serviceable
which matters if you expect to be beyond civilization (carrying water,
fuel, food on the bike).

For most riders, a telephone call to uber is sufficient for the rare
chain problem or tire gash.

Yes, and that's an illustration of different priorities. For me, "field
serviceable" is important. And the only time I've used Uber is to get to
or from a foreign airport. I'd hate to admit I needed it to finish a
bike ride.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Field serviceable is highly overrated. Never had to call anyone to finish my ride not even when I knocked off my Di2 RD last winter. You are not the only one with 35 years of cycling history.

Lou

wrote:
On Friday, June 5, 2020 at 1:44:29 PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
wrote:


Most cars don't leak oil anymore but a lot of Trucks still do so riding
in the wet CAN cover your disks in oil. Aluminum rims and caliper brakes
seem less sensitive to this. I can't tell you how pleased I am to get
back on aluminum rims.

Part of my commute has a lot of industrial, and thus do get oily bits, thus
far I’ve yet to have a issue with oil on the brakes due to surface, bar the
occasional groan.

Roger Merriman

The brakes on my Redline groan a lot. I think that has something to do
with them being polished from use. They didn't do that bef

My wife gets that, due to her being too gentle, disks like a little bit of
rough!

I solved that by taking her bike for ride and fairly hard braking.

Roger Merriman

Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/5/2020 4:54 PM, wrote:
On Friday, June 5, 2020 at 12:49:35 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/5/2020 11:49 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 4:01:48 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/4/2020 5:29 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 12:30:27 AM UTC-7, Dennis Davis wrote:
In article ,
jbeattie wrote:

...

I think that the curmudgeon handbook, chapter six, has a lengthy
discussion of the benefits of DT friction shifters. IIRC,
they a (1) slow and imprecise shifting, (2) missed shifts,
(3) conspicuous contrarianism, (4) longevity like an incurable
skin condition, (5) inconvenient location, and (6) conspicuous
contrarianism. Clearly superior to any STI/Ergo like system.

A double dose of "conspicuous contrarianism" ("3" and "6"). Isn't
that overkill?

Perhaps (6) is better replaced by:

(6) Requires levels of skill not present in modern cyclists.


...I'm planning to put some Simplex Retrofriction downtube levers on
my next bike...
--
Dennis Davis

I think more accurate would be "requires total lack of skills that
modern cyclists have." Anyone that rides downtube shifters or
centerpull brakes in this day and age is either penniless or stupid or both.


harumph.
I have a Zeus Alfa centerpull on the front of my three speed
to replace the Universal 61 destroyed when a rental truck
ran me down. It's been no trouble at all since installed,
1998 or so.



And you have wrists like Hercules trying to get a bike to stop. Even
the change from the 2015 Campy brakes to the Skeleton brakes made a
huge difference in hand pressure.

There is a descent I did yesterday where the road comes around a turn
and comes to a stop sign with about a 16% grade. Just the carbon rim
pads make it almost impossible to stop at the stop sign until I
changed over to Campy Carbon pads. It made such a huge difference in
hand pressure I wonder what it is going to do to brake surface life.

The aluminum rims I'm now using on the Madone are like a return to heaven.

The cantilever Brakes I was using on my cyclocross bikes make stopping
under difficult conditions scary until I changed to V-brakes. The very
fact that so many people have changed to disk brakes is proof that
people did NOT like not having effective brakes. Not having to worry
about how effective your brakes are makes a huge difference in the way people ride.

You would be wrong about that. One or two fingers are enough
for most riding and it will lock up with moderate hand
pressure (unlike the very cute but crappy performance
Sturmey drum rear).

Then again my front rim's a Red Label. On chinese carbon
wonder wheels, all bets are off.

On the gravel/cyclocross bikes I had with cantilever brakes and Campy
aluminum rims you have to pull with all of your might to stop the bike
returning on that particular downgrade stop sign. I would prey no cars
were coming for that I could roll it.

Installing V-brakes made all of the difference in the world.

Classic cantilevers do require a bit more skill to set up and adjust
correctly. I suspect that's the problem you had.

We have classic cantilevers on our tandem, just like most tandems over
the past 50 years or so. I've never, ever had a problem stopping or
controlling speed. I did set them up with somewhat shorter transverse
cables than normal, but not tremendously unusual.

Try this: https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html



Your tandem probably had medium, designs much like Mountain bikes did, but
CX bikes tend to have the wide, which have a low mechanical advantage and
thus my experience was similar to Tom, I did mitigate by using some Kool
Stop pads, which did mildly improve braking if at the cost of terrifying
wear rate.

The difference moving to mechanical disks which are far from top end, is
light and day.

In fairness would be fine (wide canti) on CX tracks or like, for Gravel
tracks and even on tarmac on the steeper/bigger stuff lacks the bite.

Roger Merriman