#161
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Groupsets
On Sunday, June 7, 2020 at 3:38:41 PM UTC-7, Mark J. wrote:
On 6/7/2020 11:42 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Sunday, 7 June 2020 14:25:13 UTC-4, AMuzi wrote: On 6/7/2020 1:14 PM, Mark J. wrote: On 6/7/2020 11:05 AM, AMuzi wrote: On 6/7/2020 9:50 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Sunday, 7 June 2020 10:43:20 UTC-4,  wrote: Op zondag 7 juni 2020 16:35:52 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski: On 6/7/2020 10:17 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Sunday, 7 June 2020 06:35:42 UTC-4, Wolfgang Strobl wrote: Snipped The owner of a bicycle shop, whom I consulted for getting a replacement shifter tried to convince me to use a an older shifter, he called them "Wäscheleinenschalthebel", clotheeslines shifter, because these didn't have this - to him - well known reliability problem. For me, this wasn't an option, because I very much rely on my large handle bar bag. My wife rides a Scott bicycle with the older 105 3x10 version of the group, which actually has these clotheslines. https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/scott.png She actually would like to have a decent handlebar bag, too, but alas, that's not possible her. On the positive side, those shifters work flawlessly, so far. Snipped I've seen people using those exposed "clothesline" shifter cable housings to clip their route crib sheets to. they put the sheets inside a clear plastic cover and then use a couple of binder clips to clip them to those cable housings. Some other people apparently have use the noodles from V-brakes to direct those cable housings away from their handlebar bag. https://thecrazyrandonneur.wordpress...-sti-shifters/ A good tip, I think. I've seen people cram a small handlebar bag in there by just letting those "clothesline" cables flex out of the way. The noodles look much more elegant. -- - Frank Krygowski If you still see the clotheslines models is prove of the reliability of STI. Lou I find it to be quite interesting that Campagnolo had their Ergo shifter cable routed under the handlebar tape/wrap LONG before Shimano did. Cheers Ergos have an undocumented (probably unintended as well) design feature; The gear wire wraps on its capstan in a different plane from STi so although they do fail, they fail less often and the cable stumps don't jam inside. As Ergo riders have discovered, the first frays of a gear wire stick through the rubber cover into the rider's palm, just enough to notice, before the wire breaks altogether. Agree entirely with the Ergo description. I have felt the "Ergo prick in the palm" [restrain your dirty minds!] many times over 20 years using Ergo, but I never knew it was a design feature. Mark J. I suspect that was not intended, but you have to admit you'd not think about gear wire replacement otherwise. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 The other thing I liked about my 2001 (-speed Mirage Ergos was that they could be rebuilt. In fact you could rebuild them as either 8-speed, 9-speed or 10-speed. IIRC the kit was $50.00 Cheers Exactly. I've rebuilt Campy levers 4-5 times (20+ years and I shift a LOT). I'm tolerating the Shimanos that came on my gravel bike a lot more, though, than I did the ones on my Domane - those long since swapped for Campy. Maybe I /can/ store two distinct shift motions in my subconscious - subconscious for when the brain goes on holiday toward the top of long killer climbs. Campy's newer models, at least the mid-range, appear to be non-rebuildable. It would be great if they simply don't /need/ it. I'm not clear on the consensus around recent Shimano brifters. I read fewer complaints about scrapped, malfunctioning and non-repairable Shimano brifters these days than, say, ten years ago. Mark "shifts two ways?" J. I am told by my friend that Record 12 speed are not rebuildable. I think 10 and below are rebuildable, but Andrew can confirm. -- Jay Beattie. |
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#163
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Groupsets
On 6/7/2020 2:05 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/7/2020 9:50 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Sunday, 7 June 2020 10:43:20 UTC-4, Â* wrote: Op zondag 7 juni 2020 16:35:52 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski: On 6/7/2020 10:17 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Sunday, 7 June 2020 06:35:42 UTC-4, Wolfgang StroblÂ* wrote: Snipped The owner of a bicycle shop, whom I consulted for getting a replacement shifter tried to convince me to use a an older shifter, he called them "Wäscheleinenschalthebel", clotheeslines shifter, because these didn't have this - to him - well known reliability problem.Â* For me, this wasn't an option, because I very much rely on my large handle bar bag. My wife rides a Scott bicycle with the older 105 3x10 version of the group, which actually has these clotheslines. https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/scott.png She actually would like to have a decent handlebar bag, too, but alas, that's not possible her. On the positive side, those shifters work flawlessly, so far. Snipped I've seen people using those exposed "clothesline" shifter cable housings to clip their route crib sheets to. they put the sheets inside a clear plastic cover and then use a couple of binder clips to clip them to those cable housings. Some other people apparently have use the noodles from V-brakes to direct those cable housings away from their handlebar bag. https://thecrazyrandonneur.wordpress...-sti-shifters/ A good tip, I think. I've seen people cram a small handlebar bag in there by just letting those "clothesline" cables flex out of the way. The noodles look much more elegant. -- - Frank Krygowski If you still see the clotheslines models is prove of the reliability of STI. Lou I find it to be quite interesting that Campagnolo had their Ergo shifter cable routed under the handlebar tape/wrap LONG before Shimano did. Cheers Ergos have an undocumented (probably unintended as well) design feature;Â* The gear wire wraps on its capstan in a different plane from STi so although they do fail, they fail less often and the cable stumps don't jam inside. As Ergo riders have discovered, the first frays of a gear wire stick through the rubber cover into the rider's palm, just enough to notice, before the wire breaks altogether. That same "design feature" ;-) is built into my bar end shifters. I've made use of it several times. My maintenance doesn't tend toward "replace things on schedule." It's more "if it ain't almost broke, don't fix it." -- - Frank Krygowski |
#164
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On 6/7/2020 10:43 AM, wrote:
Op zondag 7 juni 2020 16:35:52 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski: On 6/7/2020 10:17 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Sunday, 7 June 2020 06:35:42 UTC-4, Wolfgang Strobl wrote: Snipped The owner of a bicycle shop, whom I consulted for getting a replacement shifter tried to convince me to use a an older shifter, he called them "Wäscheleinenschalthebel", clotheeslines shifter, because these didn't have this - to him - well known reliability problem. For me, this wasn't an option, because I very much rely on my large handle bar bag. My wife rides a Scott bicycle with the older 105 3x10 version of the group, which actually has these clotheslines. https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/scott.png She actually would like to have a decent handlebar bag, too, but alas, that's not possible her. On the positive side, those shifters work flawlessly, so far. Snipped I've seen people using those exposed "clothesline" shifter cable housings to clip their route crib sheets to. they put the sheets inside a clear plastic cover and then use a couple of binder clips to clip them to those cable housings. Some other people apparently have use the noodles from V-brakes to direct those cable housings away from their handlebar bag. https://thecrazyrandonneur.wordpress...-sti-shifters/ A good tip, I think. I've seen people cram a small handlebar bag in there by just letting those "clothesline" cables flex out of the way. The noodles look much more elegant. -- - Frank Krygowski If you still see the clotheslines models is prove of the reliability of STI. Or, you're seeing a bike that hasn't been ridden much since 2003. That's the case for the one of those I see most. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#165
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On 6/7/2020 6:38 PM, Mark J. wrote:
Exactly.Â* I've rebuilt Campy levers 4-5 times (20+ years and I shift a LOT).Â* I'm tolerating the Shimanos that came on my gravel bike a lot more, though, than I did the ones on my Domane - those long since swapped for Campy.Â* Maybe I /can/ store two distinct shift motions in my subconscious - subconscious for when the brain goes on holiday toward the top of long killer climbs. Speaking of two distinct shift motions, last week I had my first test ride on a Sram setup, with their oddball shift setup - push a little for higher, push a lot for lower gears. In reading about it, I thought it might be tricky to get used to, but it immediately seemed quite natural to me. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#166
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On 6/7/2020 6:00 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, June 7, 2020 at 3:38:41 PM UTC-7, Mark J. wrote: On 6/7/2020 11:42 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Sunday, 7 June 2020 14:25:13 UTC-4, AMuzi wrote: On 6/7/2020 1:14 PM, Mark J. wrote: On 6/7/2020 11:05 AM, AMuzi wrote: On 6/7/2020 9:50 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Sunday, 7 June 2020 10:43:20 UTC-4,  wrote: Op zondag 7 juni 2020 16:35:52 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski: On 6/7/2020 10:17 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Sunday, 7 June 2020 06:35:42 UTC-4, Wolfgang Strobl wrote: Snipped The owner of a bicycle shop, whom I consulted for getting a replacement shifter tried to convince me to use a an older shifter, he called them "Wäscheleinenschalthebel", clotheeslines shifter, because these didn't have this - to him - well known reliability problem. For me, this wasn't an option, because I very much rely on my large handle bar bag. My wife rides a Scott bicycle with the older 105 3x10 version of the group, which actually has these clotheslines. https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/scott.png She actually would like to have a decent handlebar bag, too, but alas, that's not possible her. On the positive side, those shifters work flawlessly, so far. Snipped I've seen people using those exposed "clothesline" shifter cable housings to clip their route crib sheets to. they put the sheets inside a clear plastic cover and then use a couple of binder clips to clip them to those cable housings. Some other people apparently have use the noodles from V-brakes to direct those cable housings away from their handlebar bag. https://thecrazyrandonneur.wordpress...-sti-shifters/ A good tip, I think. I've seen people cram a small handlebar bag in there by just letting those "clothesline" cables flex out of the way. The noodles look much more elegant. -- - Frank Krygowski If you still see the clotheslines models is prove of the reliability of STI. Lou I find it to be quite interesting that Campagnolo had their Ergo shifter cable routed under the handlebar tape/wrap LONG before Shimano did. Cheers Ergos have an undocumented (probably unintended as well) design feature; The gear wire wraps on its capstan in a different plane from STi so although they do fail, they fail less often and the cable stumps don't jam inside. As Ergo riders have discovered, the first frays of a gear wire stick through the rubber cover into the rider's palm, just enough to notice, before the wire breaks altogether. Agree entirely with the Ergo description. I have felt the "Ergo prick in the palm" [restrain your dirty minds!] many times over 20 years using Ergo, but I never knew it was a design feature. Mark J. I suspect that was not intended, but you have to admit you'd not think about gear wire replacement otherwise. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 The other thing I liked about my 2001 (-speed Mirage Ergos was that they could be rebuilt. In fact you could rebuild them as either 8-speed, 9-speed or 10-speed. IIRC the kit was $50.00 Cheers Exactly. I've rebuilt Campy levers 4-5 times (20+ years and I shift a LOT). I'm tolerating the Shimanos that came on my gravel bike a lot more, though, than I did the ones on my Domane - those long since swapped for Campy. Maybe I /can/ store two distinct shift motions in my subconscious - subconscious for when the brain goes on holiday toward the top of long killer climbs. Campy's newer models, at least the mid-range, appear to be non-rebuildable. It would be great if they simply don't /need/ it. I'm not clear on the consensus around recent Shimano brifters. I read fewer complaints about scrapped, malfunctioning and non-repairable Shimano brifters these days than, say, ten years ago. Mark "shifts two ways?" J. I am told by my friend that Record 12 speed are not rebuildable. I think 10 and below are rebuildable, but Andrew can confirm. -- Jay Beattie. Yes that's right. Second version Ergo (1998~2007) are the peak of serviceability. Prior can't go Ten and 2006 up are much lighter due to metal extraction in the design process. That said, late model Ergos are indeed really light and the replacement body is not too expensive, very available and swap out quickly. For those who care about taxonomy, original Ergo are 'pointy top', second are 'round top'. The various 2006-up models curve inward when viewed from above -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#167
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On 6/7/2020 4:00 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, June 7, 2020 at 3:38:41 PM UTC-7, Mark J. wrote: On 6/7/2020 11:42 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Sunday, 7 June 2020 14:25:13 UTC-4, AMuzi wrote: On 6/7/2020 1:14 PM, Mark J. wrote: On 6/7/2020 11:05 AM, AMuzi wrote: On 6/7/2020 9:50 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Sunday, 7 June 2020 10:43:20 UTC-4,  wrote: Op zondag 7 juni 2020 16:35:52 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski: On 6/7/2020 10:17 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Sunday, 7 June 2020 06:35:42 UTC-4, Wolfgang Strobl wrote: Snipped The owner of a bicycle shop, whom I consulted for getting a replacement shifter tried to convince me to use a an older shifter, he called them "Wäscheleinenschalthebel", clotheeslines shifter, because these didn't have this - to him - well known reliability problem. For me, this wasn't an option, because I very much rely on my large handle bar bag. My wife rides a Scott bicycle with the older 105 3x10 version of the group, which actually has these clotheslines. https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/scott.png She actually would like to have a decent handlebar bag, too, but alas, that's not possible her. On the positive side, those shifters work flawlessly, so far. Snipped I've seen people using those exposed "clothesline" shifter cable housings to clip their route crib sheets to. they put the sheets inside a clear plastic cover and then use a couple of binder clips to clip them to those cable housings. Some other people apparently have use the noodles from V-brakes to direct those cable housings away from their handlebar bag. https://thecrazyrandonneur.wordpress...-sti-shifters/ A good tip, I think. I've seen people cram a small handlebar bag in there by just letting those "clothesline" cables flex out of the way. The noodles look much more elegant. -- - Frank Krygowski If you still see the clotheslines models is prove of the reliability of STI. Lou I find it to be quite interesting that Campagnolo had their Ergo shifter cable routed under the handlebar tape/wrap LONG before Shimano did. Cheers Ergos have an undocumented (probably unintended as well) design feature; The gear wire wraps on its capstan in a different plane from STi so although they do fail, they fail less often and the cable stumps don't jam inside. As Ergo riders have discovered, the first frays of a gear wire stick through the rubber cover into the rider's palm, just enough to notice, before the wire breaks altogether. Agree entirely with the Ergo description. I have felt the "Ergo prick in the palm" [restrain your dirty minds!] many times over 20 years using Ergo, but I never knew it was a design feature. Mark J. I suspect that was not intended, but you have to admit you'd not think about gear wire replacement otherwise. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 The other thing I liked about my 2001 (-speed Mirage Ergos was that they could be rebuilt. In fact you could rebuild them as either 8-speed, 9-speed or 10-speed. IIRC the kit was $50.00 Cheers Exactly. I've rebuilt Campy levers 4-5 times (20+ years and I shift a LOT). I'm tolerating the Shimanos that came on my gravel bike a lot more, though, than I did the ones on my Domane - those long since swapped for Campy. Maybe I /can/ store two distinct shift motions in my subconscious - subconscious for when the brain goes on holiday toward the top of long killer climbs. Campy's newer models, at least the mid-range, appear to be non-rebuildable. It would be great if they simply don't /need/ it. I'm not clear on the consensus around recent Shimano brifters. I read fewer complaints about scrapped, malfunctioning and non-repairable Shimano brifters these days than, say, ten years ago. Mark "shifts two ways?" J. I am told by my friend that Record 12 speed are not rebuildable. I think 10 and below are rebuildable, but Andrew can confirm. I did a "consult" for a friend's setup last year; recent Athena 10 I think, or some similar mid-range model. The lever was *completely* different on the exterior from the Chorus/Centaur models of ~2005. IIRC, the Athenas I looked at were "Powershift" as compared to "Ultrashift." I thought I read at that time that Powershift isn't rebuildable. Wouldn't surprise me if the 12s aren't rebuildable either, or maybe it's all the newer Campy stuff. Designs change. Sometimes for the better, we'll see about this one. Mark J. |
#168
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On 6/6/20 1:54 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
What matters is total gear range for a given task or terrain. Minimizing percent change between gears is far, far less critical. But that's what the industry has been selling for a long time. That's why I find it frustrating to ride my gravel bike at times on the road compared to my road bike. The percent change between gears on the gravel bike in the vicinity of gearing that I want to use on the road is bigger than on my road bike and consequently I cannot find a gear that is close to right. -- JS |
#169
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On 6/7/2020 9:28 PM, James wrote:
On 6/6/20 1:54 am, Frank Krygowski wrote: What matters is total gear range for a given task or terrain. Minimizing percent change between gears is far, far less critical. But that's what the industry has been selling for a long time. That's why I find it frustrating to ride my gravel bike at times on the road compared to my road bike.Â* The percent change between gears on the gravel bike in the vicinity of gearing that I want to use on the road is bigger than on my road bike and consequently I cannot find a gear that is close to right. I think it's obvious that people have different tolerances for that. Perhaps it's due in part to their habitual levels of exertion - that is, faster people are more likely to demand exactly the right gear ratio. But then there's my fast friend who seldom shifts her gears... -- - Frank Krygowski |
#170
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Groupsets
On Sunday, June 7, 2020 at 5:10:26 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/7/2020 2:12 PM, AMuzi wrote: On 6/7/2020 10:09 AM, wrote: On Sunday, June 7, 2020 at 5:04:30 PM UTC+2, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Sunday, 7 June 2020 10:53:16 UTC-4, jbeattieÂ* wrote: On Sunday, June 7, 2020 at 3:35:42 AM UTC-7, Wolfgang Strobl wrote: Am Fri, 5 Jun 2020 21:31:26 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski : On 6/5/2020 7:32 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote: I own and ride a road bike equipped with a an Ultegra 3x10 group from 2010 (6703, AFAIR) and I'm quite happy with it.Â* Changing gears ist easy, fast and works like a charm. Except when it it doesn't. Problem is, the construction is a mechanical nightmare. I bought it specifically because both cables (bowden cable?), both those for braking and those for changing gears are routed along the handle bar, so that there is enough space between the handles to moutn a large Ortlieb handlebar bag. Have look at https://pluspora.com/posts/296e60b0625701384a38005056264835, fifth picture or https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/20200416/DSC01809.jpg Changing the inner cable is difficult, when one of the wires is already broken. Somehow I damaged an tiny spring while removing the old cable. In consequence, the whole expensive grip had to be replaced. ... But mainly, I'd really like to get rid of all those arkwardly routed cables, which break much to often. Interesting. I have always used large handlebar bags on (almost) all bikes. So do I. 197x ff: https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/loire1.jpg 1996-2010: https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/IMG-2461.JPG Gadzooks. No offense, but that last photo looks like a dumpster find -- except for the undoubtedly expensive hydro rim brakes. What do you use for a fun, fast ride? I hope you at least remove the kickstand. -- Jay Beattie. Wolfgang Strobl, in regards to IMG_2461, how do you stay on t hat saddle? Don't your arms get sore? Cheers That puzzles me too. Lou Well and truly, people like what they like. Inexplicably. I'm noting who is being tolerant of others' choices and who is not. When I saw Wolfgang's photo, I thought "Hmm. His handlebar bag is tilted. Mine are level. Looks like that bike has done some real traveling! Oh, he's got a kickstand like my friend Jim. Hmm, what's that headlight? Wow, he tilts his saddle a lot." Then I clicked away. Not a bit of that was deprecatory. But others' reflex seemed to be "You should ride what I ride!" I thought it looked like a dirty beater. I could hear the thing rattle, and the chain rings look like they're shark-toothed. Tape is shot, rear fender broken, and wash the thing. Even my commuter is in better shape, and I'm known for deferred maintenance. If he just got back from a trans-Siberia ride, I get it, but if that is just a riding around bike, Lou needs to give him some tips. And for just riding around, do you really have a handlebar bag that big? You could put two Chihuahuas in there. -- Jay Beattie. |
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