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  #1  
Old April 12th 18, 02:44 PM posted to aus.bicycle
FMurtz
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Default Ebikes

I once posted this but got no real answer. Does anyone have an answer?
What are the latest laws in NSW regarding EBikes
Can you still have independent throttles with 200 watts, it seems you
can have 250 watts but only if you pedal, is this the case, is there an
up to date ADR or regulation governing this?
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  #2  
Old April 12th 18, 02:48 PM posted to aus.bicycle
news18
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Default Ebikes

On Thu, 12 Apr 2018 23:44:25 +1000, FMurtz wrote:

I once posted this but got no real answer.

Yes you did, but you decided to ignore it.

Does anyone have an answer?

As before.

  #3  
Old April 12th 18, 10:55 PM posted to aus.bicycle
Zebee Johnstone
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Default Ebikes

In aus.bicycle on Thu, 12 Apr 2018 23:44:25 +1000
FMurtz wrote:
I once posted this but got no real answer. Does anyone have an answer?
What are the latest laws in NSW regarding EBikes
Can you still have independent throttles with 200 watts, it seems you
can have 250 watts but only if you pedal, is this the case, is there an
up to date ADR or regulation governing this?


http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/...dal-cycles.pdf

alternatively look at legislation

latest I can find in nsw is 2014
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/n...28n2014410.pdf

"Note 1. Power-assisted pedal cycle is defined in the Vehicle Standard
(Australian Design Rule— Definitions and Vehicle Categories) 2005
determined under section 7 of the Motor Vehicle Standards Act 1989 of
the Commonwealth. The definition of power-assisted pedal cycle includes
pedalecs within the meaning of that Standard (which may have one or
more auxiliary propulsion motors generating a combined power output not
exceeding 250 watts)."

so that means 250 if pedelec as far as I can see. Which is the same
as the guy at Sydney Electric Bikes told me, that is the throttle is
supposed to only give 200W but the pedal assist can be up to 250.

(And internal combustion engined bikes are now not bicycles...)


https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2012C00326

PEDALEC - A vehicle meeting European Committee for Standardization
EN 15194:2009 or EN 15194:2009+A1:2011 Cycles - Electrically power
assisted cycles - EPAC Bicycles.

Go search for that....

http://www.zbox.com.au/legal.htm also dates to 2014 and says the same
- 200w for throttle, 250 for pedalec. With the caveat that a throttle
only bike still has to be a bike. So the pseudo-scooters you see
with the vestigal pedals are illegal.


Zebee
  #4  
Old April 12th 18, 11:14 PM posted to aus.bicycle
Zebee Johnstone
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Default Ebikes

also
https://consultation.accc.gov.au/pro...%20FINAL. pdf

Zebee
  #5  
Old April 13th 18, 07:57 AM posted to aus.bicycle
news18
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Posts: 6
Default Ebikes

On Thu, 12 Apr 2018 21:55:34 +0000, Zebee Johnstone wrote:

o that means 250 if pedelec as far as I can see. Which is the same as
the guy at Sydney Electric Bikes told me, that is the throttle is
supposed to only give 200W but the pedal assist can be up to 250.


I think he was trying to pass off old stock. The law in NSW was max 200w,
but it was relatively recently increased to 250W in line with limits else
where.

It was Victoria that at one stage had a rule that power assist could only
work if the rider was also pedalling. That rule has since been removed.

BTW, we've done this before that last time numbchum asked this question.

  #6  
Old April 13th 18, 08:33 AM posted to aus.bicycle
Zebee Johnstone
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Posts: 1,954
Default Ebikes

In aus.bicycle on Fri, 13 Apr 2018 06:57:41 -0000 (UTC)
news18 wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2018 21:55:34 +0000, Zebee Johnstone wrote:

o that means 250 if pedelec as far as I can see. Which is the same as
the guy at Sydney Electric Bikes told me, that is the throttle is
supposed to only give 200W but the pedal assist can be up to 250.


I think he was trying to pass off old stock. The law in NSW was max 200w,
but it was relatively recently increased to 250W in line with limits else
where


As all th e things quoted state, it is only 250w if pedalling. The
throttle should only allow 200W.

If you think you can do 250W on a throttle please produce the
legislation.

Zebee
  #7  
Old April 13th 18, 09:00 AM posted to aus.bicycle
news18
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Posts: 6
Default Ebikes

On Fri, 13 Apr 2018 07:33:41 +0000, Zebee Johnstone wrote:

In aus.bicycle on Fri, 13 Apr 2018 06:57:41 -0000 (UTC)
news18 wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2018 21:55:34 +0000, Zebee Johnstone wrote:

o that means 250 if pedelec as far as I can see. Which is the same as
the guy at Sydney Electric Bikes told me, that is the throttle is
supposed to only give 200W but the pedal assist can be up to 250.


I think he was trying to pass off old stock. The law in NSW was max
200w,
but it was relatively recently increased to 250W in line with limits
else where


As all th e things quoted state, it is only 250w if pedalling. The
throttle should only allow 200W.

If you think you can do 250W on a throttle please produce the
legislation.


Lol, are you looking for laws passed by Malcolm "we can ignore the law of
mathematics" Turbull? There is no way your law is enforceable as PLOD has
no way of measuring the power applied through the pedal. Send me your
"excess 200w power ticket".

I did say recent legislation.

  #8  
Old April 13th 18, 12:05 PM posted to aus.bicycle
Zebee Johnstone
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Posts: 1,954
Default Ebikes

In aus.bicycle on Fri, 13 Apr 2018 08:00:26 -0000 (UTC)
news18 wrote:
On Fri, 13 Apr 2018 07:33:41 +0000, Zebee Johnstone wrote:

In aus.bicycle on Fri, 13 Apr 2018 06:57:41 -0000 (UTC)
news18 wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2018 21:55:34 +0000, Zebee Johnstone wrote:

o that means 250 if pedelec as far as I can see. Which is the same as
the guy at Sydney Electric Bikes told me, that is the throttle is
supposed to only give 200W but the pedal assist can be up to 250.

I think he was trying to pass off old stock. The law in NSW was max
200w,
but it was relatively recently increased to 250W in line with limits
else where


As all th e things quoted state, it is only 250w if pedalling. The
throttle should only allow 200W.

If you think you can do 250W on a throttle please produce the
legislation.


Lol, are you looking for laws passed by Malcolm "we can ignore the law of
mathematics" Turbull? There is no way your law is enforceable as PLOD has
no way of measuring the power applied through the pedal. Send me your
"excess 200w power ticket".


If it isn't stamped with the appropriate certificate marks, the plod
can require you to take it and get it tested, else confiscate it until
it is tested.

That is stated in one of the links provided that you didn't read.

I did say recent legislation.


And you haven't provided any. Because there isn't any. If you think
there is, then provide links to same.

Zebee
  #9  
Old April 13th 18, 03:11 PM posted to aus.bicycle
news18
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Posts: 6
Default Ebikes

On Fri, 13 Apr 2018 11:05:42 +0000, Zebee Johnstone wrote:


If it isn't stamped with the appropriate certificate marks, the plod can
require you to take it and get it tested, else confiscate it until it is
tested.


So you stamp it. Hint, those links say it must meet a European Enbike
standard, it doesn't say it has to be one, aka EU commercial product.

That is stated in one of the links provided that you didn't read.


Page number?

[quoted text muted]


And you haven't provided any. Because there isn't any. If you think
there is, then provide links to same.


Its the bit where it says the motor can provide 250W for extended periods.

Hint, from a previous post in the newsgroup during the Vic period
requiring you to pedal at the same time. You didn't actually have to put
power into the bicycle, just rotate the pedal so the sensor detected the
chain ring rotating. It was a post about problems someone had with a
broken chain where he pushed the trike for hundreds of metre and someone
pointed out that all he had to do was rotate the chain wheel. YMMV.

What PLOD will be looking at is sustained speed above 25kms per hour on
the flat. That was in one of your links. So you don't use power assist to
speed along and Plod wont get suspicious. Plod really just looks that
your wearing a helment. Now that ICE assist is banned, it is the major
reason for pulling bicycle riders over.

Lol, the only time Plod ever tried to pull me over was on a dual use path
way as they throught my lighting was a motorcycle (stealth mode Lol).
then they started laughing as they realised I had a 50watt halogen as my
front light.

The e-bike stuff they reference is a quideline and it comes down to you
actually breaking one of the other road rules for them to ping you. One
of my bicycle building plans was a cargo trike with about 500 watt power
assist. Since the plan was for really low gears for hills, the ebnike
would have never been fast enough to warrant attention for speed. Oddity
yes, but speed never.
  #10  
Old April 13th 18, 09:24 PM posted to aus.bicycle
Zebee Johnstone
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Posts: 1,954
Default Ebikes

In aus.bicycle on Fri, 13 Apr 2018 14:11:22 -0000 (UTC)
news18 wrote:
On Fri, 13 Apr 2018 11:05:42 +0000, Zebee Johnstone wrote:


If it isn't stamped with the appropriate certificate marks, the plod can
require you to take it and get it tested, else confiscate it until it is
tested.


So you stamp it. Hint, those links say it must meet a European Enbike
standard, it doesn't say it has to be one, aka EU commercial product.


As I know from a motorcycle standard kerfuffle a few years ago, if
there is a crackdown they'll want commercial stamping. If there isn't
then it's all moot really.

From the RMS's vehicle standard PDF

"The vehicle must be certified by the manufacturer, and labelled as
complying with EN 15194. The label must include the manufacturer’s
name, the motor’s cut-off speed in km/h and its continuous rated power
in watts."


"ON-ROAD ENFORCEMENT
Police carrying out on-road enforcement may ask the owner and/or user of
a power-assisted pedal cycle to provide evidence that the power output
does not exceed the applicable limit. If that evidence is not readily
available, such as from the compliance label, it may be necessary to
test the vehicle on a certified dynamometer (‘dyno’) to determine
the maximum power output of its motor/s. "

Sure, you can create a label. You could probably create a fairly good
looking one and that would work.

It's still illegal if the bike provides more power than 250W sustained
when pedalling and 200W throttle only.


And you haven't provided any. Because there isn't any. If you think
there is, then provide links to same.


What PLOD will be looking at is sustained speed above 25kms per hour on
the flat. That was in one of your links. So you don't use power assist to
speed along and Plod wont get suspicious. Plod really just looks that
your wearing a helment. Now that ICE assist is banned, it is the major
reason for pulling bicycle riders over.


It is always possible to avoid police. And it is always possible to
use illegal equipment and have a good chance of getting away with it.

However the question was not "can I do something illegal and get away
with it" the question was "what is legal".

I have heard but can't verify that a motor rated at more than 250W can
be restricted by the manufacturer to 250 continuous but have more
torque so shift more weight faster up to the rated speed.

I expect that at some point soonish some twonk on an e-bike, hotted up
or no, will kill a ped on a shared path, or illegally riding on a
footpath. It will be a slow news day and the shockjocks will need a
bogeyman to howl about. Else the RMS will be getting heat to do more
bicycle work and will want to fight back because they hate anything
that isn't cars.

Either way there will be an ebike focused operation. Probably CBD
and surround focused as that's the target rich environment but it will
happen.


Zebee
 




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