A Cycling & bikes forum. CycleBanter.com

Go Back   Home » CycleBanter.com forum » rec.bicycles » Techniques
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

All's not fair in love and science



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old May 7th 17, 06:47 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,018
Default All's not fair in love and science

On Sun, 07 May 2017 18:37:05 +0700, John B Slocomb
wrote:

On Sat, 06 May 2017 20:47:00 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sat, 06 May 2017 07:37:23 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

p.s. Here's a pithy analysis I enjoyed greatly:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8utmmWoBSBY


The problem is why people go to college. Conventional wisdom suggests
that it's to obtain a diploma, which is considered a guarantee of
success in future employment. This is totally wrong. College was
original where the upper classes sent their sons to receive
instruction in how to act like a proper gentlemen and member of the
upper class. That meant a classical education:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outline_of_classical_studies
which included proficiency in ancient Greek and Latin. There were
also classes in history, from the perspective of the elite. Etiquette,
propriety, dueling, dance, proper dress, etc were taught so that they
would know how to act at social events. Overall, such an education
worked well for the intended purpose.

Things started to go astray when members of the GUM (great unwashed
masses) noticed that wealthy children were going to college. They
logically deduced that if they also went to college, they too would
become wealthy. Interchanging cause and effect is a problem among the
GUM.

So, they attended college, paid dearly for the privilege, and were
predictably disappointed with the expected wealth did not magically
materialize upon graduation. Not wishing to admit that they had
screwed up and did not achieve their expected goals, they perpetuated
the myth to other members of the GUM, who promptly repeated the
original logic error. The mistake would have been easily discovered
were it not for the substantial number of sons and daughters of the
wealthy, who continue to attend college.


Given that of the 56 signers of the U.S. Declaration of Independence
some 29 had attended collage and 27 had not. So apparently starting a
rebellion doesn't necessarily require a collage education.


Emigration to the colonies was primarily by those who were not doing
very well in European society. If they had the right connections,
joined the proper church, and were popular with the aristocracy, they
stayed in Europe. What the colonies go were the misfits, maladjusted,
greedy, and hot headed day dreamers. Little wonder the colonists were
considered "rabble".

It is apparent that in the world of Real Politics collage is not
necessarily an advantage :-)


I haven't checked, but I suspect that the sons of the great men of the
American revolution attended college or at least had well placed
tutors.

But I believe that you have missed a significant point in the great
Gentry - GUM debate. One attends a collage, just as one dresses for
dinner, not as a matter of education, but rather because that is
simply what a gentleman does.


Sorry. I thought that this was obvious in my rant and did not need to
be mentioned. At least among Jewish families, college was a
requirement, and failing to graduate was a serious disgrace. We
"value an education" includes having it shoved down one's throat, even
if marginally qualified and rebellious. In my case, I was perfectly
happy to continue working as a mobile radio technician, had it not
been for a combination of family pressure and a draft for the war in
Vietnam. While my self destructive tendencies tended to prefer not
going to college, I was perfectly willing to compromise my principles
in order to stay alive and be disowned by the family. While not the
best reason for going to college, it was sufficient.

Just as one does not formally introduce
one's mistress to one's wife.


Yes, that can be a problem. Arranging a menage a trois is best done
in private. However, I don't recall learning that in college, or
having a class on the topic.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Ads
  #32  
Old May 7th 17, 07:02 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,018
Default All's not fair in love and science

On Sun, 7 May 2017 07:51:34 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

I was sitting at the graduation ceremony next to a guy who was also from
Oregon and who, amazingly, knew my wife's family in Hillsboro. His
daughter was getting a masters in accounting. He will never again have
to rely on Turbo Tax. One word: accounting. It's the future.
-- Jay Beattie.


If the family thinks that their daughter is going to provide free tax
services, they're in for a major disappointment. I have a friend with
3 daughters. All have degrees in various specialties. One is a
doctor. The doctor refuses to discuss "business" with the parents and
only provides medical advice when pressured. I did much the same to
my father. When he wanted something repaired, I did everything
possible to avoid taking on the repair and its associated lifetime
warranty. The relatives also had similar expectations. When I would
come home to visit, a collection of things to repair was waiting for
me. Even if the daughter agrees to do the taxes for the family, it
will likely be the lowest priority task. Given the choice of working
on a lucrative clients tax return, or the family return for free, the
family return is likely to require several extensions and become a
rush job for the very last moment.

As for accounting being the future, it's possible. We're heading for
a service economy where everything involving product manufacture is
outsourced to former 3rd world countries. Profit will then be
generated by whomever makes the best deals, or supplies the biggest
bribes. Hiding these behind a wall of numbers cooked for the occasion
will be important with accountants providing the necessary financial
creativity.




--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #33  
Old May 7th 17, 07:37 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,018
Default All's not fair in love and science

On Sun, 7 May 2017 11:53:20 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/6/2017 11:47 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:


"23 Famous Dropouts Who Turned Out Just Fine"
https://www.buzzfeed.com/ashleyperez/23-famous-dropouts-who-turned-out-just-fine
"8 Hugely Successful People Who Didn't Graduate College"
https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/249683


I believe very strongly that there are many people in college who should
not be there, either because they lack the intellectual horsepower, or
because there are other pursuits that would do them and us much more good.


Probably true. The problem is that it's not always obvious until
AFTER they have entered college, that they are unsuited for a college
education. Even if the student is academically deficient, there is
usually an attempt by relatives to "try it for a few semesters and see
if you like it" style of encouragement.

There's also a big problem of motivation. One might assume that
everyone in college is there "to get an education". Far from the case
and it was much worse in the 1960's when the draft was going full
blast. College was where one hid from the draft, found a husband,
fulfilled the expectations of the family, burned some government
program money for minorities, avoided having to go to work, etc. I
also saw a few professional students, who would spend their entire
careers in college, taking advanced post graduate classes, and
eventually going to work for the college. Most of these motivations
are not very worthwhile, but without a way to weed them out, will
probably persist after your purge of those with insufficient
intellectual power ejects them from the colleges. Looking back, I
suspect I would have been one of the losers. My marginal grades were
the result of having to work at an outside job for much of college
"career".

But to examine your lists in context, we should compare with the list of
people who dropped out of college and did badly. Also with the list of
people who never started college and did badly. I'm thinking those are
longer lists.


Very true. Failure is always an option. The problem is that
attempting to do a proper study of the success rate of diploma holders
is difficult and error prone. The problem is that we have a huge
number of phony diplomas, fake skools, and diploma mills. A friend
was hiring an engineer and took the unusual step of actually verifying
the college credentials of some of the applicants. I don't recall the
numbers, but more than half the applicants held fake, dubious,
counterfeit, or fabricated diplomas. Many of the skools mentioned did
not exist. Yet, when he asked applicants if they have a degree, all
insisted the resume and employment application were honest and true.
https://www.google.com/search?q=fake+college+diploma&tbm=isch
https://www.diplomacompany.com/buy-fake-college-diplomas.html
https://www.diplomacompany.com/buy-fake-transcripts.html
So, when you count and tabulate the number of failures, you might
consider eliminating those who never graduated or obtained a proper
education.

Drivel: When I needed to do a warranty document, I created it with
some diploma mill software I picked up somewhere.
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/diploma.html
I have it hanging on the wall of my office. I frequently get asked
"Is that your college diploma"?

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #34  
Old May 7th 17, 08:07 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,018
Default All's not fair in love and science

On Sun, 07 May 2017 11:52:21 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

Education is a fine thing, as are discipline, curiosity and
perseverance. The University system is not equivalent to
education, although they may sometimes overlap, however
coincidentally.


During my time in college, I was repeatedly told that I was learning
how to learn. Much of what I would need to learn would arrive after
graduation, and that I should be prepared to continue my learning
experience for the rest of my life using the methods I learn in
college. Sounds good, but it's mostly baloney.

What college really did was force me to use short term methods of
learning, also known as cramming. These are generally useless as the
information is forgotten immediately after the exam. Done
consistently, it's a wonder college graduates are able to recall
anything.

The college also tends to overload students, but not make any
distinction between what is important and what is useless trivia. Then
overloaded, I like to emphasize what is important and ignore or delay
the unimportant. The inability to offer a distinction required that I
exert equal effort on both the important and the trivial. While it is
difficult for instructors to predict what might be important to a
student in later life, it is not impossible.

The result of these methods of learning is a student who soon forgets
everything he's told, wastes time on trivial things, and doesn't
really understand how things work or interact. This might be
functional in some situations, but hardly ideal for a career in any
technical profession.

Richard Feynman explained it nicely in "Surely You’re Joking, Mr.
Feynman" where he demonstrated the memorization and understanding are
quite different:
http://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #35  
Old May 7th 17, 08:34 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default All's not fair in love and science

On 5/7/2017 2:37 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 7 May 2017 11:53:20 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/6/2017 11:47 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:


"23 Famous Dropouts Who Turned Out Just Fine"
https://www.buzzfeed.com/ashleyperez/23-famous-dropouts-who-turned-out-just-fine
"8 Hugely Successful People Who Didn't Graduate College"
https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/249683


I believe very strongly that there are many people in college who should
not be there, either because they lack the intellectual horsepower, or
because there are other pursuits that would do them and us much more good.


Probably true. The problem is that it's not always obvious until
AFTER they have entered college, that they are unsuited for a college
education. Even if the student is academically deficient, there is
usually an attempt by relatives to "try it for a few semesters and see
if you like it" style of encouragement.

There's also a big problem of motivation. One might assume that
everyone in college is there "to get an education". Far from the case
and it was much worse in the 1960's when the draft was going full
blast. College was where one hid from the draft, found a husband,
fulfilled the expectations of the family, burned some government
program money for minorities, avoided having to go to work, etc...


Yet another problem is guidance counseling in American high schools. At
least around here, guidance counselors get big brownie points if a kid
they counseled gets into a prestige school, and some brownie points if a
kid gets into any college. They barely get a nod if a kid becomes a
machinist, welder, plumber, carpenter, heavy equipment operator. But we
need those guys (and girls). And they deserve more respect.

(For all I know, a counselor may get their salary docked if a kid
becomes an electronic repairman or a bike shop owner.)

So the guidance counselors try to push everyone into college. Needless
to say, the accountability stops there. If the kid flunks out and that
makes him get depressed, turn to drugs and alcohol and enter a life of
crime, the guidance counselor hears no flack.

When I was 17 or 18, I really had no idea what to do with my life. I
was considering fields as disparate as music, graphic arts, science and
more. So I took the initiative to go to the guidance counselor and say
"You've given me all those achievement and aptitude and attitude tests.
What do they show? What should I do?" The guy looked at my test
results and said "It doesn't matter. You'll do fine no matter what you
do," and pushed me out the door.

I'll concede, I did do fine. But I would have felt much better if I
were able to attack the career problem with some competent guidance.

I honestly think guiding young people into appropriate careers would be
one of the best things we could do for society. As it is, when most
people are asked how they like their job, the typical answer "Eh, it's OK."


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #36  
Old May 7th 17, 08:44 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default All's not fair in love and science

On 5/7/2017 1:47 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Arranging a menage a trois is best done
in private. However, I don't recall learning that in college, or
having a class on the topic.


I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that the topic is now covered in
some college classes.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #37  
Old May 7th 17, 10:02 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default All's not fair in love and science

On Sunday, May 7, 2017 at 11:02:47 AM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 7 May 2017 07:51:34 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

I was sitting at the graduation ceremony next to a guy who was also from
Oregon and who, amazingly, knew my wife's family in Hillsboro. His
daughter was getting a masters in accounting. He will never again have
to rely on Turbo Tax. One word: accounting. It's the future.
-- Jay Beattie.


If the family thinks that their daughter is going to provide free tax
services, they're in for a major disappointment. I have a friend with
3 daughters. All have degrees in various specialties. One is a
doctor. The doctor refuses to discuss "business" with the parents and
only provides medical advice when pressured. I did much the same to
my father. When he wanted something repaired, I did everything
possible to avoid taking on the repair and its associated lifetime
warranty. The relatives also had similar expectations. When I would
come home to visit, a collection of things to repair was waiting for
me. Even if the daughter agrees to do the taxes for the family, it
will likely be the lowest priority task. Given the choice of working
on a lucrative clients tax return, or the family return for free, the
family return is likely to require several extensions and become a
rush job for the very last moment.

As for accounting being the future, it's possible. We're heading for
a service economy where everything involving product manufacture is
outsourced to former 3rd world countries. Profit will then be
generated by whomever makes the best deals, or supplies the biggest
bribes. Hiding these behind a wall of numbers cooked for the occasion
will be important with accountants providing the necessary financial
creativity.


Doctors are ethically prohibited from treating immediate family members, subject to certain exceptions. http://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/...oet1-1205.html So your friend's daughter at least has an excuse for not treating her father.

My sister is an accountant (among other things), and she does pro bono tax returns for poor people, which always seemed odd -- endless 1040 EZ forms? But, as it turns out, she does a lot of returns for illegal immigrants in Sonoma County (grape pickers, among others), and they have odd issues -- like paying into our Social Security system. They get a special "look the other way" number, and just like a roach motel, the money goes in, but it doesn't come out -- except to current citizen retirees. And now that Trump is cracking the whip on illegal immigration, the grape growers are have trouble getting their grapes picked. The legals won't pick grapes for $16/hr. https://www.marketplace.org/2017/03/...-farm-wages-go

I told my son he could pick grapes in Napa for $40K a year with benefits, but he wasn't interested. Slacker!

-- Jay Beattie.

  #38  
Old May 7th 17, 11:42 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andrew Chaplin
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 206
Default All's not fair in love and science

Jeff Liebermann wrote in
:

Emigration to the colonies was primarily by those who were not doing
very well in European society. If they had the right connections,
joined the proper church, and were popular with the aristocracy, they
stayed in Europe. What the colonies go were the misfits, maladjusted,
greedy, and hot headed day dreamers. Little wonder the colonists were
considered "rabble".


The 13 Colonies got religious non-conformists, Australia got political and
(minor) criminal prisoners, and Canada got Scots--Canada won.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
  #39  
Old May 8th 17, 12:44 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,345
Default All's not fair in love and science

On Sunday, May 7, 2017 at 2:02:40 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, May 7, 2017 at 11:02:47 AM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 7 May 2017 07:51:34 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

I was sitting at the graduation ceremony next to a guy who was also from
Oregon and who, amazingly, knew my wife's family in Hillsboro. His
daughter was getting a masters in accounting. He will never again have
to rely on Turbo Tax. One word: accounting. It's the future.
-- Jay Beattie.


If the family thinks that their daughter is going to provide free tax
services, they're in for a major disappointment. I have a friend with
3 daughters. All have degrees in various specialties. One is a
doctor. The doctor refuses to discuss "business" with the parents and
only provides medical advice when pressured. I did much the same to
my father. When he wanted something repaired, I did everything
possible to avoid taking on the repair and its associated lifetime
warranty. The relatives also had similar expectations. When I would
come home to visit, a collection of things to repair was waiting for
me. Even if the daughter agrees to do the taxes for the family, it
will likely be the lowest priority task. Given the choice of working
on a lucrative clients tax return, or the family return for free, the
family return is likely to require several extensions and become a
rush job for the very last moment.

As for accounting being the future, it's possible. We're heading for
a service economy where everything involving product manufacture is
outsourced to former 3rd world countries. Profit will then be
generated by whomever makes the best deals, or supplies the biggest
bribes. Hiding these behind a wall of numbers cooked for the occasion
will be important with accountants providing the necessary financial
creativity.


Doctors are ethically prohibited from treating immediate family members, subject to certain exceptions. http://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/...oet1-1205.html So your friend's daughter at least has an excuse for not treating her father.

My sister is an accountant (among other things), and she does pro bono tax returns for poor people, which always seemed odd -- endless 1040 EZ forms? But, as it turns out, she does a lot of returns for illegal immigrants in Sonoma County (grape pickers, among others), and they have odd issues -- like paying into our Social Security system. They get a special "look the other way" number, and just like a roach motel, the money goes in, but it doesn't come out -- except to current citizen retirees. And now that Trump is cracking the whip on illegal immigration, the grape growers are have trouble getting their grapes picked. The legals won't pick grapes for $16/hr. https://www.marketplace.org/2017/03/...-farm-wages-go

I told my son he could pick grapes in Napa for $40K a year with benefits, but he wasn't interested. Slacker!

-- Jay Beattie.


Jay, I think that you misunderstand the laws. Most of the agricultural workers can get green cards. And yes,they STILL have to pay into the Social Security and Medicare systems and just like you and I they can collect on them after they've achieved citizenship which they put in for when they get their green cards. This is the same as anyone here working and holding H-1B or H-2 visas.

This is one of the problems with illegal aliens. They have the country overrun with people that have tried to bypass the legal system and are slowing up actual citizenship.
  #40  
Old May 8th 17, 12:46 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,345
Default All's not fair in love and science

On Sunday, May 7, 2017 at 3:45:51 PM UTC-7, Andrew Chaplin wrote:
Jeff Liebermann wrote in
:

Emigration to the colonies was primarily by those who were not doing
very well in European society. If they had the right connections,
joined the proper church, and were popular with the aristocracy, they
stayed in Europe. What the colonies go were the misfits, maladjusted,
greedy, and hot headed day dreamers. Little wonder the colonists were
considered "rabble".


The 13 Colonies got religious non-conformists, Australia got political and
(minor) criminal prisoners, and Canada got Scots--Canada won.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)


You mean that Canada got the worst part of the deal? There's a term "drunker than a Scotsman" for a reason you know.
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
I love Usenet almost as much as I love bicycles. Zoot Katz General 7 April 8th 08 07:36 AM
I love Usenet almost as much as I love bicycles. Zoot Katz Social Issues 7 April 8th 08 07:36 AM
I love Usenet almost as much as I love bicycles. Zoot Katz Techniques 6 April 6th 08 09:35 PM
I love Darren Bedford! (But I love Danielle more!) drewation Unicycling 6 January 28th 05 09:58 PM
science fair Rob-the-unrepentant Unicycling 5 January 6th 04 03:25 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:54 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 CycleBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.