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#31
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All's not fair in love and science
On Sun, 07 May 2017 18:37:05 +0700, John B Slocomb
wrote: On Sat, 06 May 2017 20:47:00 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Sat, 06 May 2017 07:37:23 -0500, AMuzi wrote: p.s. Here's a pithy analysis I enjoyed greatly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8utmmWoBSBY The problem is why people go to college. Conventional wisdom suggests that it's to obtain a diploma, which is considered a guarantee of success in future employment. This is totally wrong. College was original where the upper classes sent their sons to receive instruction in how to act like a proper gentlemen and member of the upper class. That meant a classical education: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outline_of_classical_studies which included proficiency in ancient Greek and Latin. There were also classes in history, from the perspective of the elite. Etiquette, propriety, dueling, dance, proper dress, etc were taught so that they would know how to act at social events. Overall, such an education worked well for the intended purpose. Things started to go astray when members of the GUM (great unwashed masses) noticed that wealthy children were going to college. They logically deduced that if they also went to college, they too would become wealthy. Interchanging cause and effect is a problem among the GUM. So, they attended college, paid dearly for the privilege, and were predictably disappointed with the expected wealth did not magically materialize upon graduation. Not wishing to admit that they had screwed up and did not achieve their expected goals, they perpetuated the myth to other members of the GUM, who promptly repeated the original logic error. The mistake would have been easily discovered were it not for the substantial number of sons and daughters of the wealthy, who continue to attend college. Given that of the 56 signers of the U.S. Declaration of Independence some 29 had attended collage and 27 had not. So apparently starting a rebellion doesn't necessarily require a collage education. Emigration to the colonies was primarily by those who were not doing very well in European society. If they had the right connections, joined the proper church, and were popular with the aristocracy, they stayed in Europe. What the colonies go were the misfits, maladjusted, greedy, and hot headed day dreamers. Little wonder the colonists were considered "rabble". It is apparent that in the world of Real Politics collage is not necessarily an advantage :-) I haven't checked, but I suspect that the sons of the great men of the American revolution attended college or at least had well placed tutors. But I believe that you have missed a significant point in the great Gentry - GUM debate. One attends a collage, just as one dresses for dinner, not as a matter of education, but rather because that is simply what a gentleman does. Sorry. I thought that this was obvious in my rant and did not need to be mentioned. At least among Jewish families, college was a requirement, and failing to graduate was a serious disgrace. We "value an education" includes having it shoved down one's throat, even if marginally qualified and rebellious. In my case, I was perfectly happy to continue working as a mobile radio technician, had it not been for a combination of family pressure and a draft for the war in Vietnam. While my self destructive tendencies tended to prefer not going to college, I was perfectly willing to compromise my principles in order to stay alive and be disowned by the family. While not the best reason for going to college, it was sufficient. Just as one does not formally introduce one's mistress to one's wife. Yes, that can be a problem. Arranging a menage a trois is best done in private. However, I don't recall learning that in college, or having a class on the topic. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
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#32
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All's not fair in love and science
On Sun, 7 May 2017 07:51:34 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote: I was sitting at the graduation ceremony next to a guy who was also from Oregon and who, amazingly, knew my wife's family in Hillsboro. His daughter was getting a masters in accounting. He will never again have to rely on Turbo Tax. One word: accounting. It's the future. -- Jay Beattie. If the family thinks that their daughter is going to provide free tax services, they're in for a major disappointment. I have a friend with 3 daughters. All have degrees in various specialties. One is a doctor. The doctor refuses to discuss "business" with the parents and only provides medical advice when pressured. I did much the same to my father. When he wanted something repaired, I did everything possible to avoid taking on the repair and its associated lifetime warranty. The relatives also had similar expectations. When I would come home to visit, a collection of things to repair was waiting for me. Even if the daughter agrees to do the taxes for the family, it will likely be the lowest priority task. Given the choice of working on a lucrative clients tax return, or the family return for free, the family return is likely to require several extensions and become a rush job for the very last moment. As for accounting being the future, it's possible. We're heading for a service economy where everything involving product manufacture is outsourced to former 3rd world countries. Profit will then be generated by whomever makes the best deals, or supplies the biggest bribes. Hiding these behind a wall of numbers cooked for the occasion will be important with accountants providing the necessary financial creativity. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#33
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All's not fair in love and science
On Sun, 7 May 2017 11:53:20 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 5/6/2017 11:47 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: "23 Famous Dropouts Who Turned Out Just Fine" https://www.buzzfeed.com/ashleyperez/23-famous-dropouts-who-turned-out-just-fine "8 Hugely Successful People Who Didn't Graduate College" https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/249683 I believe very strongly that there are many people in college who should not be there, either because they lack the intellectual horsepower, or because there are other pursuits that would do them and us much more good. Probably true. The problem is that it's not always obvious until AFTER they have entered college, that they are unsuited for a college education. Even if the student is academically deficient, there is usually an attempt by relatives to "try it for a few semesters and see if you like it" style of encouragement. There's also a big problem of motivation. One might assume that everyone in college is there "to get an education". Far from the case and it was much worse in the 1960's when the draft was going full blast. College was where one hid from the draft, found a husband, fulfilled the expectations of the family, burned some government program money for minorities, avoided having to go to work, etc. I also saw a few professional students, who would spend their entire careers in college, taking advanced post graduate classes, and eventually going to work for the college. Most of these motivations are not very worthwhile, but without a way to weed them out, will probably persist after your purge of those with insufficient intellectual power ejects them from the colleges. Looking back, I suspect I would have been one of the losers. My marginal grades were the result of having to work at an outside job for much of college "career". But to examine your lists in context, we should compare with the list of people who dropped out of college and did badly. Also with the list of people who never started college and did badly. I'm thinking those are longer lists. Very true. Failure is always an option. The problem is that attempting to do a proper study of the success rate of diploma holders is difficult and error prone. The problem is that we have a huge number of phony diplomas, fake skools, and diploma mills. A friend was hiring an engineer and took the unusual step of actually verifying the college credentials of some of the applicants. I don't recall the numbers, but more than half the applicants held fake, dubious, counterfeit, or fabricated diplomas. Many of the skools mentioned did not exist. Yet, when he asked applicants if they have a degree, all insisted the resume and employment application were honest and true. https://www.google.com/search?q=fake+college+diploma&tbm=isch https://www.diplomacompany.com/buy-fake-college-diplomas.html https://www.diplomacompany.com/buy-fake-transcripts.html So, when you count and tabulate the number of failures, you might consider eliminating those who never graduated or obtained a proper education. Drivel: When I needed to do a warranty document, I created it with some diploma mill software I picked up somewhere. http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/diploma.html I have it hanging on the wall of my office. I frequently get asked "Is that your college diploma"? -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#34
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All's not fair in love and science
On Sun, 07 May 2017 11:52:21 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
Education is a fine thing, as are discipline, curiosity and perseverance. The University system is not equivalent to education, although they may sometimes overlap, however coincidentally. During my time in college, I was repeatedly told that I was learning how to learn. Much of what I would need to learn would arrive after graduation, and that I should be prepared to continue my learning experience for the rest of my life using the methods I learn in college. Sounds good, but it's mostly baloney. What college really did was force me to use short term methods of learning, also known as cramming. These are generally useless as the information is forgotten immediately after the exam. Done consistently, it's a wonder college graduates are able to recall anything. The college also tends to overload students, but not make any distinction between what is important and what is useless trivia. Then overloaded, I like to emphasize what is important and ignore or delay the unimportant. The inability to offer a distinction required that I exert equal effort on both the important and the trivial. While it is difficult for instructors to predict what might be important to a student in later life, it is not impossible. The result of these methods of learning is a student who soon forgets everything he's told, wastes time on trivial things, and doesn't really understand how things work or interact. This might be functional in some situations, but hardly ideal for a career in any technical profession. Richard Feynman explained it nicely in "Surely You’re Joking, Mr. Feynman" where he demonstrated the memorization and understanding are quite different: http://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#35
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All's not fair in love and science
On 5/7/2017 2:37 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 7 May 2017 11:53:20 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 5/6/2017 11:47 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: "23 Famous Dropouts Who Turned Out Just Fine" https://www.buzzfeed.com/ashleyperez/23-famous-dropouts-who-turned-out-just-fine "8 Hugely Successful People Who Didn't Graduate College" https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/249683 I believe very strongly that there are many people in college who should not be there, either because they lack the intellectual horsepower, or because there are other pursuits that would do them and us much more good. Probably true. The problem is that it's not always obvious until AFTER they have entered college, that they are unsuited for a college education. Even if the student is academically deficient, there is usually an attempt by relatives to "try it for a few semesters and see if you like it" style of encouragement. There's also a big problem of motivation. One might assume that everyone in college is there "to get an education". Far from the case and it was much worse in the 1960's when the draft was going full blast. College was where one hid from the draft, found a husband, fulfilled the expectations of the family, burned some government program money for minorities, avoided having to go to work, etc... Yet another problem is guidance counseling in American high schools. At least around here, guidance counselors get big brownie points if a kid they counseled gets into a prestige school, and some brownie points if a kid gets into any college. They barely get a nod if a kid becomes a machinist, welder, plumber, carpenter, heavy equipment operator. But we need those guys (and girls). And they deserve more respect. (For all I know, a counselor may get their salary docked if a kid becomes an electronic repairman or a bike shop owner.) So the guidance counselors try to push everyone into college. Needless to say, the accountability stops there. If the kid flunks out and that makes him get depressed, turn to drugs and alcohol and enter a life of crime, the guidance counselor hears no flack. When I was 17 or 18, I really had no idea what to do with my life. I was considering fields as disparate as music, graphic arts, science and more. So I took the initiative to go to the guidance counselor and say "You've given me all those achievement and aptitude and attitude tests. What do they show? What should I do?" The guy looked at my test results and said "It doesn't matter. You'll do fine no matter what you do," and pushed me out the door. I'll concede, I did do fine. But I would have felt much better if I were able to attack the career problem with some competent guidance. I honestly think guiding young people into appropriate careers would be one of the best things we could do for society. As it is, when most people are asked how they like their job, the typical answer "Eh, it's OK." -- - Frank Krygowski |
#36
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All's not fair in love and science
On 5/7/2017 1:47 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Arranging a menage a trois is best done in private. However, I don't recall learning that in college, or having a class on the topic. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that the topic is now covered in some college classes. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#37
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All's not fair in love and science
On Sunday, May 7, 2017 at 11:02:47 AM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 7 May 2017 07:51:34 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie wrote: I was sitting at the graduation ceremony next to a guy who was also from Oregon and who, amazingly, knew my wife's family in Hillsboro. His daughter was getting a masters in accounting. He will never again have to rely on Turbo Tax. One word: accounting. It's the future. -- Jay Beattie. If the family thinks that their daughter is going to provide free tax services, they're in for a major disappointment. I have a friend with 3 daughters. All have degrees in various specialties. One is a doctor. The doctor refuses to discuss "business" with the parents and only provides medical advice when pressured. I did much the same to my father. When he wanted something repaired, I did everything possible to avoid taking on the repair and its associated lifetime warranty. The relatives also had similar expectations. When I would come home to visit, a collection of things to repair was waiting for me. Even if the daughter agrees to do the taxes for the family, it will likely be the lowest priority task. Given the choice of working on a lucrative clients tax return, or the family return for free, the family return is likely to require several extensions and become a rush job for the very last moment. As for accounting being the future, it's possible. We're heading for a service economy where everything involving product manufacture is outsourced to former 3rd world countries. Profit will then be generated by whomever makes the best deals, or supplies the biggest bribes. Hiding these behind a wall of numbers cooked for the occasion will be important with accountants providing the necessary financial creativity. Doctors are ethically prohibited from treating immediate family members, subject to certain exceptions. http://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/...oet1-1205.html So your friend's daughter at least has an excuse for not treating her father. My sister is an accountant (among other things), and she does pro bono tax returns for poor people, which always seemed odd -- endless 1040 EZ forms? But, as it turns out, she does a lot of returns for illegal immigrants in Sonoma County (grape pickers, among others), and they have odd issues -- like paying into our Social Security system. They get a special "look the other way" number, and just like a roach motel, the money goes in, but it doesn't come out -- except to current citizen retirees. And now that Trump is cracking the whip on illegal immigration, the grape growers are have trouble getting their grapes picked. The legals won't pick grapes for $16/hr. https://www.marketplace.org/2017/03/...-farm-wages-go I told my son he could pick grapes in Napa for $40K a year with benefits, but he wasn't interested. Slacker! -- Jay Beattie. |
#38
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All's not fair in love and science
Jeff Liebermann wrote in
: Emigration to the colonies was primarily by those who were not doing very well in European society. If they had the right connections, joined the proper church, and were popular with the aristocracy, they stayed in Europe. What the colonies go were the misfits, maladjusted, greedy, and hot headed day dreamers. Little wonder the colonists were considered "rabble". The 13 Colonies got religious non-conformists, Australia got political and (minor) criminal prisoners, and Canada got Scots--Canada won. -- Andrew Chaplin SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO (If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.) |
#39
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All's not fair in love and science
On Sunday, May 7, 2017 at 2:02:40 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, May 7, 2017 at 11:02:47 AM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Sun, 7 May 2017 07:51:34 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie wrote: I was sitting at the graduation ceremony next to a guy who was also from Oregon and who, amazingly, knew my wife's family in Hillsboro. His daughter was getting a masters in accounting. He will never again have to rely on Turbo Tax. One word: accounting. It's the future. -- Jay Beattie. If the family thinks that their daughter is going to provide free tax services, they're in for a major disappointment. I have a friend with 3 daughters. All have degrees in various specialties. One is a doctor. The doctor refuses to discuss "business" with the parents and only provides medical advice when pressured. I did much the same to my father. When he wanted something repaired, I did everything possible to avoid taking on the repair and its associated lifetime warranty. The relatives also had similar expectations. When I would come home to visit, a collection of things to repair was waiting for me. Even if the daughter agrees to do the taxes for the family, it will likely be the lowest priority task. Given the choice of working on a lucrative clients tax return, or the family return for free, the family return is likely to require several extensions and become a rush job for the very last moment. As for accounting being the future, it's possible. We're heading for a service economy where everything involving product manufacture is outsourced to former 3rd world countries. Profit will then be generated by whomever makes the best deals, or supplies the biggest bribes. Hiding these behind a wall of numbers cooked for the occasion will be important with accountants providing the necessary financial creativity. Doctors are ethically prohibited from treating immediate family members, subject to certain exceptions. http://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/...oet1-1205.html So your friend's daughter at least has an excuse for not treating her father. My sister is an accountant (among other things), and she does pro bono tax returns for poor people, which always seemed odd -- endless 1040 EZ forms? But, as it turns out, she does a lot of returns for illegal immigrants in Sonoma County (grape pickers, among others), and they have odd issues -- like paying into our Social Security system. They get a special "look the other way" number, and just like a roach motel, the money goes in, but it doesn't come out -- except to current citizen retirees. And now that Trump is cracking the whip on illegal immigration, the grape growers are have trouble getting their grapes picked. The legals won't pick grapes for $16/hr. https://www.marketplace.org/2017/03/...-farm-wages-go I told my son he could pick grapes in Napa for $40K a year with benefits, but he wasn't interested. Slacker! -- Jay Beattie. Jay, I think that you misunderstand the laws. Most of the agricultural workers can get green cards. And yes,they STILL have to pay into the Social Security and Medicare systems and just like you and I they can collect on them after they've achieved citizenship which they put in for when they get their green cards. This is the same as anyone here working and holding H-1B or H-2 visas. This is one of the problems with illegal aliens. They have the country overrun with people that have tried to bypass the legal system and are slowing up actual citizenship. |
#40
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All's not fair in love and science
On Sunday, May 7, 2017 at 3:45:51 PM UTC-7, Andrew Chaplin wrote:
Jeff Liebermann wrote in : Emigration to the colonies was primarily by those who were not doing very well in European society. If they had the right connections, joined the proper church, and were popular with the aristocracy, they stayed in Europe. What the colonies go were the misfits, maladjusted, greedy, and hot headed day dreamers. Little wonder the colonists were considered "rabble". The 13 Colonies got religious non-conformists, Australia got political and (minor) criminal prisoners, and Canada got Scots--Canada won. -- Andrew Chaplin SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO (If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.) You mean that Canada got the worst part of the deal? There's a term "drunker than a Scotsman" for a reason you know. |
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