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Chain Lube?



 
 
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  #91  
Old November 20th 18, 09:42 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 41
Default Chain Lube?

Work is work. Some are just not lazy and like to keep their drivetrain running top notch. It's not that hard to wash the chain once or twice a week - let alone, learn some bike maintenance while cleaning and lubricating a chain. One can start looking at other things like rim wear, brake pads wearing, that salty or nasty stuff on the spokes, grit on the frame, rusty cables, etc.

On Tuesday, November 20, 2018 at 2:39:00 PM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/20/2018 12:28 PM, wrote:
Why not just get something easier:
https://www.ernestolube.com/buy

Because I believe that if you examine the total work required, it won't
be easier.

BTW, I think posts that are blatantly advertising should be labeled as
such.

--
- Frank Krygowski


Ads
  #92  
Old November 21st 18, 12:05 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
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Posts: 805
Default Chain Lube?

On Tue, 20 Nov 2018 11:51:03 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 11/19/2018 11:54 PM, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 23:34:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 11/19/2018 6:50 PM, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 08:52:17 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Sunday, November 18, 2018 at 4:57:31 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 16:18:41 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Sunday, November 18, 2018 at 4:02:50 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 10:35:49 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Saturday, November 17, 2018 at 3:40:25 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 12:25:25 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 11/15/2018 1:25 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

I missed the part that referred back to your original suggestion of
using Dow Molykote D-321 R Dry Film lubricant. However, I prefer to
debate the current point of contention: Will a solvent carrier
transport grease into a chain link (without boiling in oil or pressure
injection)?

Yes. That's how commercial chain lubricants are formulated. The solvent
carrier carries the lubricant onto the pins and rollers.

"PJ1 Black Label is designed for standard non-”O”ring chains. PJ1 Black
Label has a foaming action that penetrates pins and rollers as well as
lubricating the rollers, sprocket and side plates. After penetrating the
inside of the chain, PJ1 Black Label chain lube becomes a sticky
lubricant that bounces back or has a “memory” effect that withstands the
continual mechanical stress of the chain."

For a very thick solid lubricant like wax, it has to be thinned by
heating to penetrate. It now appears that people that use wax also add
oil to the mixture because wax alone doesn't last very long. Perhaps in
the future they'll decide that the oil alone is sufficient. But probably
not. Tradition. It's like people that still change their car's oil every
3000 miles. It's just not possible to make them understand that it does
not provide any advantage. It's called "recreational oil changing" just
as waxing a chain is called "recreational chain waxing."

I remember you mentioning this "foaming action" several times before,
but I am wondering exactly how this "foaming action" forces oil
through the narrow passageway between the side plates. After all we
are talking about a passageway that is very narrow with ambient
pressure on one side and The Lord only knows what pressure on the
other. What contains the tiny little bubbles in the foam that allows
them to apply sufficient pressure to force themselves down into the
dark and dismal depths of the chain?

After all when a glass of beer is served with a head of foam the foam
doesn't seem to exert sufficient pressure to force itself down into
the beer, quite the opposite in fact, the foam seems to rise to the
top.

I might also comment that, in the gas and oil industry, producers
spend considerable time and effort to de-gas, i.e. remove the foam,
from oil before forcing it down a pipeline.

As an aside, can you provide any reference from a reliable source that
describes using a wax as a chain lube as being "recreational chain
waxing"?

After all Frank provided a reference from a source that seems to be
the "last word" in measuring friction losses in the bicycle world that
stated that the lowest losses were from using a wax lubricated chain,
that described in detain how the test was made.
cheers,

John B.

John, the popping of the bubbles that compose the foam puts a pressure inside the foam where it contacts the rollers. I'm not one to have a great deal of faith in this but it does appear to be plenty of lube everywhere including your chainstay and everyone within a yard of the operation.

I'm not sure that this explanation is valid in that a bubble contains
pressure inside the bubble but can only apply pressure outside the
bubble if it is contained in some manner. Think of a balloon. Blow it
up and then it simply floats around bumping into things and doesn't
penetrate a bit. Or, as in my original post, bubbles in a glass of
beer... or for those in an upper financial bracket, bubbles in a glass
of champagne.



The best I've used is Rock and Roll. This contains a Teflon lubricant
in a solvent. You roll the chain and liberally spray the stuff on the
chain/rear cassette for several revolutions of the chain. The solvent
washes off the dirt and old lubricant. You then use a cloth to wipe as
much of the chain dry as possible and then allow the chain to dry
overnight. The Teflon penetrates between the rollers and the solvent
evaporates overnight. So you have a clean chain that actually does
have lubrication that you can actually feel and it is dry so the chain
doesn't pick up dirt or leave muck on the chain rings and cogs. Of
course this stuff is as expensive as gold and you have to use it
fairly often to clean everything.

Amazon has R&R Gold for $6.66 for 4 oz.
cheers,

John B.

John, you don't seem to have the engineering concept. A lubricant bubble doesn't "bounce" off of anything. If the chain is dry each bubble progressive pops and wets and area. The next bubble floats along this lubricated surface until it in turn reaches an unlubricated surface etc. The bubbles are similar to your balloon idea save they have a very weak surface tension which is disturbed by anything other than the lubricant itself.

Fine, I can agree with that but the idea that bubbles, for some
reason, aid in forcing the lubricant into cracks and crevices is, at
least in the descriptions offered to date, seems to be a factor of
advertising not reality.



Only about one part in eight of Rock and Roll is Teflon (the actual lubricant). A four ounce bottle is good for at the most, two application of a clean chain or one of a dirty one. I'd say that makes it expensive, wouldn't you?

Gee, I don't know. In a previous post I offered the suggestion that
cyclists probably shouldn't talk about prices and quoted TREK's prices
to their top road and mountain bikes - $12,000 and $9,000 if I
remember. And certainly TREK wouldn't be making them if they couldn't
sell them.

$6.66 on a $12,000 bicycle sounds like chicken feed.

cheers,

John B.

John, how much have you paid for chain lube over the last year? I bought the 16 ounce bottle of Rock and Roll two years ago.

Over the last year? Nothing!

You see, I've been using hot wax for about 4 years now and while, yes,
I bought some blocks of wax 4 years ago, or about that, I haven't
spent a penny since.

I paid twice as much as I should for chain wax.

See, I bought a box of canning paraffin wax many, many years ago -
probably decades ago, really. I used about half of it to mix up the
concoction I used at the time. (I forget whether that one had a bit of
motor oil or a bit of gear lube, but it doesn't matter.)

When I saw my supply was finally getting low, I bought another pound of
canning wax. Gulfwax brand, $4.29 says the price tag still on the box.
But I procrastinated making the new batch, then I forgot I bought that
box. I bought another one. $4.29 down the drain!

Finally, rummaging around elsewhere, I found the half pound from the
purchase years ago. The cardboard box it came in is rotted, but the wax
looks fine. So really, that's $8.58 down the drain in - what? - just ten
years or so!


Ah but you are forgetting the LPG or CNG that you burn in your
blowtorch to heat the chain :-)


You're right! Damn, this may be costing me as much as a dollar per year!
:-(



Well, as they say, take care of the pennies, and the pounds will look
after themselves :-)

cheers,

John B.


  #93  
Old November 21st 18, 12:11 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 805
Default Chain Lube?

On Tue, 20 Nov 2018 09:28:48 -0800 (PST),
wrote:


Because I read the advertisements at your site and it sounds like
"snake oil" to me.

https://tinyurl.com/y9jxdhu3
"Snake Oil" - "comes from the 19th-century American practice of
selling cure-all elixirs in traveling medicine shows. Snake oil
salesmen would falsely claim that the potions would cure any
ailments."

cheers,

John B.


  #95  
Old November 21st 18, 12:50 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
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Posts: 9,477
Default Chain Lube?

On 11/19/2018 12:06 PM, wrote:
On Monday, November 19, 2018 at 9:45:31 AM UTC-8, sms wrote:
On 11/19/2018 8:56 AM,
wrote:

snip

"The “King of Lubes” has three chain lubes: The EXTREME,
ABSOLUTE DRY, and GOLD. All three are formulated to clean and lube at the same time when applied. "


Not sure if I believe this. It's like combined shampoo and conditioner.

I suppose that I'll continue with the old-school method of cleaning a
chain with petroleum based solvent and then lubricating it with chain lube.

With a chain cleaner, I can clean a chain five minutes or so and then
recycle dirty solvent.


Well, I didn't believe it either but after trying it, it appears to work pretty well but you're wiping off the chain for a long time after using the stuff.


The issue is that it takes several solvent changes before the solvent
runs clean.

From my web site on chain cleaning and lubrication:

Why is this method the best?

1. The links are in motion as the pass through the solvent, with the
rollers spinning and the links flexing. You cannot obtain this sort of
link action with the chain off the bike in a bottle of solvent, or in a
parts cleaner. As Sheldon Brown writes, "The on-the-bike system has the
advantage that the cleaning machine flexes the links and spins the
rollers. This scrubbing action may do a better job of cleaning the innards."

2. The chain gets cleaner with each repetition of the process, with the
dirty solvent removed, the contaminants don't remain in the process.

3.Solvents such as kerosene do not leave rust-causing moisture in the
chain like water-based solvents do.

4. Keeping the chain on the bicycle eliminates weakening the chain by
rivet extraction. As Sheldon Brown writes, "...modern chains have rivets
that are tighter fitting into the chain plates. The new rivets are
difficult to remove and reinstall without damaging either the rivet or
the side plate."

5. It requires very little time.

6. The Chain Master avoids spattering solvent on the wheel and tire.
  #96  
Old November 21st 18, 01:17 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 805
Default Chain Lube?

On Tue, 20 Nov 2018 15:50:11 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 11/19/2018 12:06 PM, wrote:
On Monday, November 19, 2018 at 9:45:31 AM UTC-8, sms wrote:
On 11/19/2018 8:56 AM,
wrote:

snip

"The “King of Lubes” has three chain lubes: The EXTREME,
ABSOLUTE DRY, and GOLD. All three are formulated to clean and lube at the same time when applied. "

Not sure if I believe this. It's like combined shampoo and conditioner.

I suppose that I'll continue with the old-school method of cleaning a
chain with petroleum based solvent and then lubricating it with chain lube.

With a chain cleaner, I can clean a chain five minutes or so and then
recycle dirty solvent.


Well, I didn't believe it either but after trying it, it appears to work pretty well but you're wiping off the chain for a long time after using the stuff.


The issue is that it takes several solvent changes before the solvent
runs clean.

From my web site on chain cleaning and lubrication:

Why is this method the best?

1. The links are in motion as the pass through the solvent, with the
rollers spinning and the links flexing. You cannot obtain this sort of
link action with the chain off the bike in a bottle of solvent, or in a
parts cleaner. As Sheldon Brown writes, "The on-the-bike system has the
advantage that the cleaning machine flexes the links and spins the
rollers. This scrubbing action may do a better job of cleaning the innards."

2. The chain gets cleaner with each repetition of the process, with the
dirty solvent removed, the contaminants don't remain in the process.

3.Solvents such as kerosene do not leave rust-causing moisture in the
chain like water-based solvents do.

4. Keeping the chain on the bicycle eliminates weakening the chain by
rivet extraction. As Sheldon Brown writes, "...modern chains have rivets
that are tighter fitting into the chain plates. The new rivets are
difficult to remove and reinstall without damaging either the rivet or
the side plate."

5. It requires very little time.

6. The Chain Master avoids spattering solvent on the wheel and tire.



I'm sorry to say but "From my web site" is not a valid reference.

It simply illustrates one of the many illusions that you, and perhaps
some others experience.

(valid - well grounded in logic or truth)

cheers,

John B.


  #97  
Old November 21st 18, 02:34 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Ralph Barone[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 853
Default Chain Lube?

wrote:
Work is work. Some are just not lazy and like to keep their drivetrain
running top notch. It's not that hard to wash the chain once or twice a
week - let alone, learn some bike maintenance while cleaning and
lubricating a chain. One can start looking at other things like rim wear,
brake pads wearing, that salty or nasty stuff on the spokes, grit on the
frame, rusty cables, etc.

On Tuesday, November 20, 2018 at 2:39:00 PM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/20/2018 12:28 PM, wrote:
Why not just get something easier:
https://www.ernestolube.com/buy

Because I believe that if you examine the total work required, it won't
be easier.

BTW, I think posts that are blatantly advertising should be labeled as
such.

--
- Frank Krygowski




Wash my chain twice a week? No thanks. This is the 21st century. I don't
want my bike maintenance to look like a page out of a 1950's British sports
car manual.

  #99  
Old November 21st 18, 01:37 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 41
Default Chain Lube?

No snakes were hurt. On Tuesday, November 20, 2018 at 5:11:43 PM UTC-6, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 20 Nov 2018 09:28:48 -0800 (PST),
wrote:


Because I read the advertisements at your site and it sounds like
"snake oil" to me.

https://tinyurl.com/y9jxdhu3
"Snake Oil" - "comes from the 19th-century American practice of
selling cure-all elixirs in traveling medicine shows. Snake oil
salesmen would falsely claim that the potions would cure any
ailments."

cheers,

John B.


  #100  
Old November 21st 18, 01:46 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 41
Default Chain Lube?

On Tuesday, November 20, 2018 at 7:34:35 PM UTC-6, Ralph Barone wrote:
wrote:
Work is work. Some are just not lazy and like to keep their drivetrain
running top notch. It's not that hard to wash the chain once or twice a
week - let alone, learn some bike maintenance while cleaning and
lubricating a chain. One can start looking at other things like rim wear,
brake pads wearing, that salty or nasty stuff on the spokes, grit on the
frame, rusty cables, etc.

On Tuesday, November 20, 2018 at 2:39:00 PM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/20/2018 12:28 PM, wrote:
Why not just get something easier:
https://www.ernestolube.com/buy

Because I believe that if you examine the total work required, it won't
be easier.

BTW, I think posts that are blatantly advertising should be labeled as
such.

--
- Frank Krygowski




Wash my chain twice a week? No thanks. This is the 21st century. I don't
want my bike maintenance to look like a page out of a 1950's British sports
car manual.


I am speaking from experience, riding in salty road environment. If I lived in a dryer climate, thats different story. In non-salty months I lube the chain once I start hearing a different tone. But right now, with the salt on the road and bike paths, I'm more comfortable cleaning it and keeping it smooth.

When I hear other riders with squeaky chains. Makes me cringe. I just want to pull them aside so I can do an emergency vasectomy... I mean, emergency bike chain lube'ing.
 




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