too polite automobile drivers.

"After you, Alphonse." "No, after YOU" The dynamic I see here is each
trying to be nice, and BOTH end up losing. And if one eventually decides to
give in and go, there is a danger that the other do so also, at the same
time. The driver of the car is well aware that this could be fatal to the
cyclist, so is loathe to break the tie. The cyclist is well aware that this
could be fatal to him, so he is also loathe to do so.

The best way to avoid this is at the very beginning. If someone waves you
on, the politest, safest and most efficient choice is to accept the
courtesy. (Unless, of course, there are other cars contributing to the
hazard, in which case, just point and smile.)

In article ,
Luke writes:
In article , catzz66
wrote:

bob syr wrote:
...

This is becoming a real problem; I suppose I should be thankful that
these folks and making an effort to be polite, but I am starting to
dread approaching intersections with all-way stop signs. Is there
some way we can advertise to auto drivers that their politeness is
welcome, but let's not be ridiculous with it?

Bob Syr

When I first started riding, I was more rigid and would insist that
motorists with the right of way drive on, but now I accept their
generosity. Learn how to smile and give a friendly wave as you move on
and it can become your default response. It doesn't make sense to me to
do anything else. If someone is nice enough to wave me on, I
acknowledge them with a smile and wave and then go.

I agree.

To the OP: Habituate yourself to timing your arrival at 4 way stops in
order to let queued cars the opportunity to proceed prior to reaching
the intersection, then rolling on through when the way is clear. That's
definitely preferable to stopping and starting.

And in the cases when you, the cyclist, and a car reach the
intersection simultaneously I recommend you take the initiative. Be
assertive: slow down but don't stop; make eye contact; signal with your
hands your direction (left, right, or straight through) then, if your
intent is acknowledged and the way is clear, roll on through.

No it's not a complete stop but I find the operation, done correctly,
speeds everyone's passage through a 4 way stop, and is rarely begrudged
by motorists. What drivers often resent, rightly or not, is cyclists
conveying ambiguity or unnecessarily delaying them.

No rider who follows ROW convention when there are other
street/road users around should ever have to feel guilty.

Holy mackerel! Just get in line and do the 4-way stop
thing, like everybody else.

It's just that easy.

If somebody deigns to fsck-up traffic flow by either
improperly yielding or stealing ROW, that's their prob,
as they demonstrate their lack of social skills to the
world. But we're civilized, sociable, and above all
that nonsense, aren't we?


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

Bill Sornson wrote:
catzz66 wrote:

bob syr wrote:

...

This is becoming a real problem; I suppose I should be thankful that
these folks and making an effort to be polite, but I am starting to
dread approaching intersections with all-way stop signs. Is there
some way we can advertise to auto drivers that their politeness is
welcome, but let's not be ridiculous with it?

Bob Syr

When I first started riding, I was more rigid and would insist that
motorists with the right of way drive on, but now I accept their
generosity. Learn how to smile and give a friendly wave as you move
on and it can become your default response. It doesn't make sense to
me to do anything else. If someone is nice enough to wave me on, I
acknowledge them with a smile and wave and then go.


Not always a safe thing to do, however. Trouble is that not all drivers
think alike, so one waving you thru might conflict with the next one (or one
coming from a different direction). Best bet is to /generally/ follow
standard traffic rules.



I agree with you about following traffic rules. I think it is important
to be predictable and obey traffic signals and signage. We're talking
about what happens when you do that and motorists make eye contact with
you and wave you on in situations where it they would otherwise have the
right of way.

On Jun 7, 5:57*am, bob syr wrote:
Hi Group - it's been a long time.

Been riding bicycle about a year, less the winter. *It's getting good;
I'm getting better going up upgrades and riding in high gear more
(more strength in legs). *I plan on putting a couple of pannier
baskets on the back and use the bike for grocery shopping. *The store
is about a mile away and the route has a few hills I can't quite make
yet, but I will, I hope, before the month is out.

First, a word about 'local' shopping by bike. Perhaps you missed the
thread;
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...02ea360075852#
(-:
Better than panniers I would suggest.
http://www.instructables.com/id/Loca...-a-cat-basket/


Anyway, I've been having this problem with automobile drivers.

Sometimes drivers think it's fun to blow their horn or make other
noise when they pass. *And there are others who "flip you the bird"
for some reason I'm not generally aware of. *Well, fortunately these
drivers are in the minority. *Annoying as these drivers may be, they
are NOT the ones I'm having a problem with.

Some . . *in fact many . . *auto drivers are overly polite, especially
at 4-way stop signs. *I should mention I'm an older guy, lower '60s,
so maybe that's why they're doubly polite, and I'm grateful. *I still
sometimes have a problem starting to pedal from a full stop, so I like
the intersection to be empty of traffic while I take off to cross on
the bike. *I'm happy to wait.

Ok, I've come from the opposite side of this problem. I've always
tended to cycle on the highest gear, but now a days, what with a new
bike an' all (7 gear, Prestige) and perhaps getting a bit older myself
I find that I'm more inclined be more ready to remember that I'm
cycling and so not at work and so can allow myself to ease up a bit.
That means, albeit a bit of a habit to break, I make a point of not
always staying in gear 7 (or 21 on the previous bike)
I'm even getting quite good at the highest gear habit breaking thing
because even on short distance interchanges, I manage to start off on
5, go to 6 and then 7 and on approaching the junction, down to 5 again
to have an easy time taking off again. And I'm allowed. It's not work
after all!

So, I suggest you try that too.


Today this guy waved me to cross in front of him while other cars were
stopped at the stop sign. *Well, I did everything I could to indicate
I wanted HIM to go first. *I took my hands of the handle bar and
folded my arms. *That didn't work. *I then started to fiddle with my
gloves hoping he would go, but he didn't. *I then DISMOUNTED and stood
next to the bike. *It became a kind of a grudge match. *He insisted I
cross in front of him so finally I let him win and walked my bike in
front of his car and across the intersection.

He had kids in the car with him, so maybe he was showing the kids how
to be courteous to your elders and bike riders. *Or maybe, as a car
driver, he figured HE ought to be in charge of the roadways and direct
all of us guest bicyclists as to how to proceed.

This is becoming a real problem; I suppose I should be thankful that
these folks and making an effort to be polite, but I am starting to
dread approaching intersections with all-way stop signs. *Is there
some way we can advertise to auto drivers that their politeness is
welcome, but let's not be ridiculous with it?

Hmm. I'm torn between suggesting you pop over to Belgium for a spot of
cycling and suggesting you never even think of it.

Here in Belgium, cyclists are the king of the road..
It is commonly understood that if a motorist hits a cyclist on account
of an error said cyclist made, e.g. running a red light, then it is
the motorist who is at fault and not the cyclist.
It's like a permanent right of way and everything else to cyclists.
So you will see cyclists moving along at a nice slow casual pace in
bands of at least 3 across and sometimes I even see them at so many a
breast as to take up the whole 1-way street.... going the wrong way
(which they are allowed to do too)
And never have I heard abuse directed at them, or seen motorist
'gestures' towards cyclists other than polite ones.

Perhaps then, given your aversion to polite motorists Belgium might be
your hell on earth.

Especially given a fairly recent change to the right of way issue.
previously, if you yielded your right of way and the other motorist
took it (like say you stopped when you weren't strictly obliged to)
but then you changed your mind and crash into him/her, you'd be at
fault. Now, if you've got the right of way and are crashed into,
regardless if you had yielded it, waved them on etc... they will be at
fault.

That means that the politeness meter has increased it's measure of
ensuring those with the right of way are given it.

On the other hand, coming to belgium might be great for you.
Been king of the road might compliment you cycling confidence and you
might be more inclined to develop a more...urm.. safer cycling manner,
independent of motorist whim. (urm... we drive on the right (-


Bob Syr

Yeah, I encounter people like that... flapping their hands about
behind their tinted glass.
At the end of this we have rules so that every knows what to do, and
safety is improved by everyone following the rules.
There isn't much I can say to help you deal with people that refuse to
follow the rules. Heck, I've been known to break a few of them
myself, like that about riding on the sidewalk, which I will routinely
do to shorten my route and avoid traffic control devices and the
traffic that they attract.

But I can offer some advise on starting from a dead stop on a
bicycle. If not changing gears while approaching the traffic control
device is an issue you may want to consider an internally geared hub
rather than a derailleur type transmission. The internal hub is
probably lighter than the cog-set and derailleur, and it will allow
you to change gears without pedaling (while stopped). These generally
require less maintenance than the derailleur. The down side to using
one of these is that with the chain tensioning aspect of the rear
derailleur you probably won't be able to use a front derailleur, so
you bike would be limited to the 7 or 8 gears provided by the hub
rather than the 21-24 provided by the combination of front and rear
derailleurs. But the number of gears isn't as important as the range
of gearing provided by them. Another issue might be your bicycle
frame, horizontal versus vertical dropouts, It might be easier to buy
a bike that was configured with an internally geared hub that to
convert one, unless you just liked fiddling with mechanical things.


Some . . in fact many . . auto drivers are overly polite, especially
at 4-way stop signs. I should mention I'm an older guy, lower '60s,
so maybe that's why they're doubly polite, and I'm grateful. I still
sometimes have a problem starting to pedal from a full stop, so I like
the intersection to be empty of traffic while I take off to cross on
the bike. I'm happy to wait.

On Jun 6, 11:57 pm, bob syr wrote:

Anyway, I've been having this problem with automobile drivers.

...
Today this guy waved me to cross in front of him while other cars were
stopped at the stop sign. Well, I did everything I could to indicate
I wanted HIM to go first. I took my hands of the handle bar and
folded my arms. That didn't work. I then started to fiddle with my
gloves hoping he would go, but he didn't. I then DISMOUNTED and stood
next to the bike. It became a kind of a grudge match. He insisted I
cross in front of him so finally I let him win and walked my bike in
front of his car and across the intersection....

This is becoming a real problem; I suppose I should be thankful that
these folks and making an effort to be polite, but I am starting to
dread approaching intersections with all-way stop signs. Is there
some way we can advertise to auto drivers that their politeness is
welcome, but let's not be ridiculous with it?

I've got several four-way stop signs on my commuting route. Here's
how I deal with that problem. I take charge even before I get to the
intersection.

Specifically, if I'm arriving simultaneously with a car that's to my
right, I begin waving them through before we even stop. Many drivers
still seem hesitant, somehow not believing I'll stop, I guess. But
even those will move on once they see me actually stop.

When a car arrives simultaneously from the left (so that I have the
ROW) I'll do the world's quickest track stand, about 0.001 second, and
be sure I'm started off before they get a chance to.

I had a similar "too polite" problem about a week ago, at a different
intersection. I was waiting to ride out and turn left from a
residential street onto an arterial. A woman driving from my right
wanted to turn left into my street, but she stopped there and tried
waving me out. No way! For one thing, her SUV was blocking my view
of traffic.

I just gave a very emphatic shake of my head, emphatically waved her
on, and looked away to watch for traffic from the left. After a
second or so, she shrugged and moved on, and I waved thanks.

- Frank Krygowski

In article ,
aquachimp writes:
On Jun 7, 5:57*am, bob syr wrote:
Hi Group - it's been a long time.

Been riding bicycle about a year, less the winter. *It's getting good;
I'm getting better going up upgrades and riding in high gear more
(more strength in legs). *I plan on putting a couple of pannier
baskets on the back and use the bike for grocery shopping. *The store
is about a mile away and the route has a few hills I can't quite make
yet, but I will, I hope, before the month is out.
First, a word about 'local' shopping by bike. Perhaps you missed the
thread;
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...02ea360075852#
(-:
Better than panniers I would suggest.
http://www.instructables.com/id/Loca...-a-cat-basket/


Panniers have certain intrinsic advantages, eg: they distribute
cargo weight around a bicycle in the best manner possible. But
they're really designed for touring, not for shopping. Things like
potted calla lilies fare better in carriers such as your device.

welcome, but let's not be ridiculous with it?
Hmm. I'm torn between suggesting you pop over to Belgium for a spot of
cycling and suggesting you never even think of it.
Here in Belgium, cyclists are the king of the road..

Heck, I'd go just for the beer, and a Watteau appreciation pilgrimage.
And of course, the waffles ;-)

A couple of Tours de France ago, there was much discussion
about the cobbled streets in the Belgium stages.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

Leo Lichtman wrote:
"After you, Alphonse." "No, after YOU" The dynamic I see here is each
trying to be nice, and BOTH end up losing. And if one eventually decides to
give in and go, there is a danger that the other do so also, at the same
time. The driver of the car is well aware that this could be fatal to the
cyclist, so is loathe to break the tie. The cyclist is well aware that this
could be fatal to him, so he is also loathe to do so.

The best way to avoid this is at the very beginning. If someone waves you
on, the politest, safest and most efficient choice is to accept the
courtesy. (Unless, of course, there are other cars contributing to the
hazard, in which case, just point and smile.)


In a lower traffic density town like mine, I will just make eye contact
and wave them to go whilst I aim the bike at their rear bumper so they
know I want them to go. If, by chance, there is a second car, I make eye
contact with them too, so they can see what is going on. All the adult
motorists I have interacted with in this manner seem to leave with a
smile. The problem drivers tend to be teenaged males who seem to want to
make problems for others. Fortunately that type of driver is rare,
thanks in part to more police enforcement around here.
I did almost get hit by some moron trying to make a right turn at nearly
skidding speed, so I never take along a music box of any kind.
If I can't see them, at least I can hear them. Since I only ride at
around 12-15 MPH in populated areas I have had no trouble serious enough
to report.
Cheers,
Bill Baka

On Jun 7, 7:09 am, Luke wrote:
In article , catzz66



wrote:
bob syr wrote:
...

This is becoming a real problem; I suppose I should be thankful that
these folks and making an effort to be polite, but I am starting to
dread approaching intersections with all-way stop signs. Is there
some way we can advertise to auto drivers that their politeness is
welcome, but let's not be ridiculous with it?

Bob Syr

When I first started riding, I was more rigid and would insist that
motorists with the right of way drive on, but now I accept their
generosity. Learn how to smile and give a friendly wave as you move on
and it can become your default response. It doesn't make sense to me to
do anything else. If someone is nice enough to wave me on, I
acknowledge them with a smile and wave and then go.

I agree.

To the OP: Habituate yourself to timing your arrival at 4 way stops in
order to let queued cars the opportunity to proceed prior to reaching
the intersection, then rolling on through when the way is clear. That's
definitely preferable to stopping and starting.

And in the cases when you, the cyclist, and a car reach the
intersection simultaneously I recommend you take the initiative. Be
assertive: slow down but don't stop; make eye contact; signal with your
hands your direction (left, right, or straight through) then, if your
intent is acknowledged and the way is clear, roll on through.

No it's not a complete stop but I find the operation, done correctly,
speeds everyone's passage through a 4 way stop, and is rarely begrudged
by motorists. What drivers often resent, rightly or not, is cyclists
conveying ambiguity or unnecessarily delaying them.

Luke is right on! The idea is to speed everyone safely through the
intersection, so you must time your arrival to the 4 way stop with the
OP. That way, there is no ambiguity about who arrived first and
should therefore go first.

Just like the DMV guidebooks say about defensive driving here in
California: use S.E.E. Search! Examine! Execute! This intersection
is another example of how defensive driving actually makes dealing
with traffic go smoother, faster, and more fun!

I live in a very busy neighborhood with 4 way stops on LITERALLY every
other corner, and I encounter these friendly-hesitant-driver types
(which is a blessing) quite often. So to get to places in a
reasonable amount of time, I do exactly what Luke is talking
about...timing and courteous initiative.

I don't know if my technique will work for everyone's neighborhood,
but here it is: Before approaching an intersection I SEARCH! for
other drivers approaching the intersection, EXAMINE! what they are
about to do (ETA to intersection? do they even notice me? Do they
appear to be on a rush? ) EXECUTE! with these friendly-hesitant
types, I take initiative by the use of body language like, "ok I'm
rolling" (by looking at your path of travel, and keeping them within
your peripheral view) AND make a peace sign "Thanks" (without taking
my hand off the handlebars).

IF my path of travel and other traffic permits, I will even go behind
their bumper so they don't have to wait for me to pass. I use extra
SEE in executing this, and when done right, it saves them time, and it
saves me the annoyance of worrying about their indecisiveness.

On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 08:37:48 -0500 in rec.bicycles.misc, "Pat"
wrote:

Hey! The OP is in his 60's, so the overwhelming chances are that he KNOWS
the traffic rules!

i'm in my 60s, too. he might know the traffic rules, but he was
explictly ignoring them, which makes the situation less safe.