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Belt Drives - the future?



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 1st 08, 01:53 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Mark T[_2_]
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Posts: 525
Default Belt Drives - the future?

www.bikebiz.com/news/29367/Carbon-belt-drives-are-standardised

Now that there's a new standard out there, does anything stand in their
way?
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  #2  
Old February 1st 08, 02:10 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Peter Clinch
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Posts: 4,852
Default Belt Drives - the future?

Mark T wrote:
www.bikebiz.com/news/29367/Carbon-belt-drives-are-standardised

Now that there's a new standard out there, does anything stand in their
way?


Initially, inertia from the innate conservatism of the bike market.
There will naturally be suspicion of a New! Improved! Thing replacing
something that, for all its faults, works pretty well and we're familiar
with it. Fixing something that doesn't seem to be borken, in other words.

But I think that if it's as good as they say (okay, getting on for
almost as good as they say...) then it will gradually appear in more and
more bikes, so if it's going to conquer the world I'd expect it to do it
like alloy rims replaced steel, rather than overnight. But to start
with it does have to be that good, or it will be like DAB replacing FM
(or not, as the case seems to be...)

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
  #3  
Old February 1st 08, 02:23 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Nigel Cliffe[_2_]
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Default Belt Drives - the future?

Peter Clinch wrote:
Mark T wrote:
www.bikebiz.com/news/29367/Carbon-belt-drives-are-standardised

Now that there's a new standard out there, does anything stand in
their way?


Initially, inertia from the innate conservatism of the bike market.
There will naturally be suspicion of a New! Improved! Thing replacing
something that, for all its faults, works pretty well and we're
familiar with it. Fixing something that doesn't seem to be borken,
in other words.


It will be a shame if belt drives just die through the conservatism of the
bike market. For a utility bike, a belt makes a lot of sense - no oil and
should last longer. I can see how it may work well off-road. I can't see
it ending up on race/audax machines (even though it is carbon fibre!),
except, possibly, in the recumbent arena.


But it will be some years in changing.





--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/


  #4  
Old February 1st 08, 02:42 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Dave Larrington
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Posts: 2,069
Default Belt Drives - the future?

In ,
Mark T pleasegivegenerously@warmail*turn_up_the_heat_to_ reply*.com.invalid
tweaked the Babbage-Engine to tell us:
www.bikebiz.com/news/29367/Carbon-belt-drives-are-standardised

Now that there's a new standard out there, does anything stand in
their way?


o Can't be retrofitted to an existing bike (or can it?)
o hub gears only so gear range is of necessity limited even if one can
afford a Rohloff

--
Dave Larrington
http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk
Trees, once grown in large numbers, make perfect forests.


  #5  
Old February 1st 08, 02:48 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Colin MacDonald
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Posts: 54
Default Belt Drives - the future?

On 1 Feb, 13:23, "Nigel Cliffe" wrote:
It will be a shame if belt drives just die through the conservatism of the
bike market. For a utility bike, a belt makes a lot of sense - no oil and
should last longer. I can see how it may work well off-road. I can't see
it ending up on race/audax machines (even though it is carbon fibre!),
except, possibly, in the recumbent arena.


I can see them being popular in commuting / city bikes. The width of
the belt, and the lack of lateral flex, means a fixed chainline and no
derailleur, so it'll only work with hub gears. But that's not much of
an 'only', considering there's a big market for people who only need a
few gears. As you say, for a utility bike it's seems like a good
thing. Oh, and it won't rust in the winter, which reminds me I need
to do some chain TLC this weekend...

Colin
  #6  
Old February 1st 08, 02:49 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling,rec.bicycles.tech
_[_2_]
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Posts: 1,228
Default Belt Drives - the future?

On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 13:23:14 -0000, Nigel Cliffe wrote:

Peter Clinch wrote:
Mark T wrote:
www.bikebiz.com/news/29367/Carbon-belt-drives-are-standardised

Now that there's a new standard out there, does anything stand in
their way?


Initially, inertia from the innate conservatism of the bike market.
There will naturally be suspicion of a New! Improved! Thing replacing
something that, for all its faults, works pretty well and we're
familiar with it. Fixing something that doesn't seem to be borken,
in other words.


It will be a shame if belt drives just die through the conservatism of the
bike market. For a utility bike, a belt makes a lot of sense - no oil and
should last longer. I can see how it may work well off-road. I can't see
it ending up on race/audax machines (even though it is carbon fibre!),
except, possibly, in the recumbent arena.


Efficiency, beloved by racers and marketing droids, will be a big issue.
Bigger than it should be, probably; and murkier, certainly.

My recollection is that previous versions of belt drives were estimated to
be less efficient that a well-lubricated new roller chain. Belts do not
lend themselves well to derailleur gear systems, and that would add the
typical lower efficiency of hub gearing.

Cleanliness is a possible advantage - but if you are going to have a hub
gear, you might as well have a chaincase; which would probably also remove
or reverse any durability advantage.

Howevere, this will be (sort of) "new", and manufactures love "new" - it
means that they can sell stuff to (some of) the installed base.
  #7  
Old February 1st 08, 03:05 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling,rec.bicycles.tech
Peter Clinch
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Posts: 4,852
Default Belt Drives - the future?

_ wrote:

Efficiency, beloved by racers and marketing droids, will be a big issue.
Bigger than it should be, probably; and murkier, certainly.

My recollection is that previous versions of belt drives were estimated to
be less efficient that a well-lubricated new roller chain.


But a lot of the point of this new one is it's meant to be just as
efficient as a chain.

Belts do not
lend themselves well to derailleur gear systems, and that would add the
typical lower efficiency of hub gearing.


It is typical, but it's also changing. Hubs have come on a long way in
recent years while derailleurs haven't really changed /that/ much. if
they continue to improve (particularly the likes of the NuVinci CVT hub,
which just needs to get lighter AFAICT) this may start to be less of an
issue.

Cleanliness is a possible advantage - but if you are going to have a hub
gear, you might as well have a chaincase; which would probably also remove
or reverse any durability advantage.


I don't think so. An enclosed chain still needs lubrication, while a
drive belt doesn't.

It does have some clear advantages... as long as you don't particularly
need derailleurs for your particular application (and "need" can be
factored in as cost: they're popular at the low end in part because
they're not very sophisticated and thus cheap).

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
  #8  
Old February 1st 08, 03:09 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
dabac[_119_]
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Posts: 1
Default Belt Drives - the future?


Dave Larrington Wrote:
o Can't be retrofitted to an existing bike (or can it?)
Retrofit would require a splittable (or spliceable) belt. Not

impossible, but not yet here.

Dave Larrington Wrote:

o hub gears only ..

You need to consider that snowmobiles, certain cars and various other
vehicles have been using belt drives for years under the catchy phrase
of CVT (continously variable transmissions).
Granted, an entirely different kind of belt compared to what usually
discussed as the potential future of bicycles, but still a belt...

I wonder how the bike (marketing) industry would cope with a
CVT-equipped bike? With no longer being able to use the number of gears
to separate categories, what would they do instead?


--
dabac

  #9  
Old February 1st 08, 03:17 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Peter Clinch
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Posts: 4,852
Default Belt Drives - the future?

dabac wrote:

I wonder how the bike (marketing) industry would cope with a
CVT-equipped bike? With no longer being able to use the number of gears
to separate categories, what would they do instead?


Google NuVinci, it's been released in the fairly recent past and
according to all the reviews I've seen thus far works very well indeed.
the current Gotcha is the hub weighs about 4 Kg, which is a lot in bike
terms. But it's version 1, I imagine it will improve.

Personally, I'd love CVT, just as soon as the costs and weights come
down (previous implementations have been rather inefficient AIUI, but
from what i read the NuVinci has got at least most of that sorted).
Rather than say "27 gears" you could differentiate bikes with practical
gear range, which unlike the "27 gears" would actually impart some
useful information... so I guess marketing might not like it so much... ;-/

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
  #10  
Old February 1st 08, 04:05 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
bugbear
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Posts: 1,158
Default Belt Drives - the future?

dabac wrote:

o hub gears only ..

You need to consider that snowmobiles, certain cars and various other
vehicles have been using belt drives for years under the catchy phrase
of CVT (continously variable transmissions).


IIRC such transmissions have losses that aren't
acceptable on a HPV.

BugBear
 




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