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Why wooden rims are superior to carbon fibre reinforced plastic rims



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 16th 10, 06:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 10,041
Default Why wooden rims are superior to carbon fibre reinforced plastic rims

As noted elsewhere, I have considerable experience in structural
reinforced plastics. As a reminder to those who think the carbon in
carbon fibre is the important component, no it isn't. The important
component is the epoxy, the plastic. The carbon fibre by itself is so
brittle as to be useless. It is only in combination with the plastic
(epoxy) that the carbon becomes useful in any engineering sense.

The largest and most successful structure I designed and built was a
68ft transocean racing yacht in moulded wood or, if you will, in wood-
fibre-reinforced plastic. That impressed the virtues of laminated wood
indelibly on me.

In a contemporary thread we hear much about the troubles carbon fiber
rims are liable to. It doesn't take a genius to see that, in every
possible engineering sense, a wooden rim is superior to a carbon fiber
rim.

Yes, I know, the wooden rim brakes badly in the wet, is a high-
maintenance item, and ultimately cannot be made as light as a carbon
rim. So? Do carbon rims brake well? Or, when you've made the carbon
rim lighter than the wooden rim, doesn't the carbon rim instantly
become a disposable item with short service life?

In particular, wood is superior in its failure mode, in exactly the
same way as steel is superior to other bicycle materials in its
failure mode. Wood has more in common with good steel, in that when
properly laminated into shape, wood is about the same strength as
bicycle steel tubes, though it might be made to weigh the same as
aluminium or less. But laminated wood fails as progressively as steel,
not suddenly and catastrophically like carbon reinforced plastic. Wood
just isn't brittle like that shiny rubbish.

I'm really surprised that we don't see more wood in bicycles.

There's a substantial section on engineering moving mechanisms in wood
in my book DESIGNING AND BUILDING SPECIAL CARS (Batsford, London;
Bentley, Boston; etc).

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Bicycles at
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/...20CYCLING.html
Ads
  #2  
Old September 16th 10, 07:20 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
D'ohBoy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 548
Default Why wooden rims are superior to carbon fibre reinforced plastic rims

On Sep 16, 12:48*pm, Andre Jute wrote:
As noted elsewhere, I have considerable experience in structural
reinforced plastics. As a reminder to those who think the carbon in
carbon fibre is the important component, no it isn't. The important
component is the epoxy, the plastic. The carbon fibre by itself is so
brittle as to be useless. It is only in combination with the plastic
(epoxy) that the carbon becomes useful in any engineering sense.

The largest and most successful structure I designed and built was a
68ft transocean racing yacht in moulded wood or, if you will, in wood-
fibre-reinforced plastic. That impressed the virtues of laminated wood
indelibly on me.

Uh huh. Believe every word.

In a contemporary thread we hear much about the troubles carbon fiber
rims are liable to. It doesn't take a genius to see that, in every
possible engineering sense, a wooden rim is superior to a carbon fiber
rim.


Testify my brother!

Yes, I know, the wooden rim brakes badly in the wet, is a high-
maintenance item, and ultimately cannot be made as light as a carbon
rim. So? Do carbon rims brake well? Or, when you've made the carbon
rim lighter than the wooden rim, doesn't the carbon rim instantly
become a disposable item with short service life?


My N of 1 flies in the face of your blather.

In particular, wood is superior in its failure mode, in exactly the
same way as steel is superior to other bicycle materials in its
failure mode. Wood has more in common with good steel, in that when
properly laminated into shape, wood is about the same strength as
bicycle steel tubes, though it might be made to weigh the same as
aluminium or less. But laminated wood fails as progressively as steel,
not suddenly and catastrophically like carbon reinforced plastic. Wood
just isn't brittle like that shiny rubbish.

I'm really surprised that we don't see more wood in bicycles.


Can you even get wood?

There's a substantial section on engineering moving mechanisms in wood
in my book DESIGNING AND BUILDING SPECIAL CARS (Batsford, London;
Bentley, Boston; etc).

YAWN

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Bicycles at
*http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/...20CYCLING.html


No thanks!

D'ohBoy
  #3  
Old September 16th 10, 07:51 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
MikeWhy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 362
Default Why wooden rims are superior to carbon fibre reinforced plastic rims

See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsaMb7Wuinw

"Andre Jute" wrote in message
...
As noted elsewhere, I have considerable experience in structural
reinforced plastics. As a reminder to those who think the carbon in
carbon fibre is the important component, no it isn't. The important
component is the epoxy, the plastic. The carbon fibre by itself is so
brittle as to be useless. It is only in combination with the plastic
(epoxy) that the carbon becomes useful in any engineering sense.

The largest and most successful structure I designed and built was a
68ft transocean racing yacht in moulded wood or, if you will, in wood-
fibre-reinforced plastic. That impressed the virtues of laminated wood
indelibly on me.

In a contemporary thread we hear much about the troubles carbon fiber
rims are liable to. It doesn't take a genius to see that, in every
possible engineering sense, a wooden rim is superior to a carbon fiber
rim.

Yes, I know, the wooden rim brakes badly in the wet, is a high-
maintenance item, and ultimately cannot be made as light as a carbon
rim. So? Do carbon rims brake well? Or, when you've made the carbon
rim lighter than the wooden rim, doesn't the carbon rim instantly
become a disposable item with short service life?

In particular, wood is superior in its failure mode, in exactly the
same way as steel is superior to other bicycle materials in its
failure mode. Wood has more in common with good steel, in that when
properly laminated into shape, wood is about the same strength as
bicycle steel tubes, though it might be made to weigh the same as
aluminium or less. But laminated wood fails as progressively as steel,
not suddenly and catastrophically like carbon reinforced plastic. Wood
just isn't brittle like that shiny rubbish.

I'm really surprised that we don't see more wood in bicycles.

There's a substantial section on engineering moving mechanisms in wood
in my book DESIGNING AND BUILDING SPECIAL CARS (Batsford, London;
Bentley, Boston; etc).

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Bicycles at
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/...20CYCLING.html


  #4  
Old September 16th 10, 11:06 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James[_8_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,093
Default Why wooden rims are superior to carbon fibre reinforced plastic rims

On Sep 17, 4:20*am, "D'ohBoy" wrote:
On Sep 16, 12:48*pm, Andre Jute wrote:


I'm really surprised that we don't see more wood in bicycles.


Can you even get wood?


Yes. http://www.renovobikes.com/

Had I been able to test ride one I would have been tempted to buy one,
just to shove it up the carbon toting packs at the vets racing.

JS.
  #5  
Old September 16th 10, 11:42 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tim McNamara
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Posts: 6,945
Default Why wooden rims are superior to carbon fibre reinforced plastic rims

Jute has apparently never played baseball.

--
That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, Bingo.
  #6  
Old September 16th 10, 11:44 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tim McNamara
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,945
Default Why wooden rims are superior to carbon fibre reinforced plastic rims

In article
,
James wrote:

On Sep 17, 4:20*am, "D'ohBoy" wrote:
On Sep 16, 12:48*pm, Andre Jute wrote:


I'm really surprised that we don't see more wood in bicycles.


Can you even get wood?


Yes. http://www.renovobikes.com/

Had I been able to test ride one I would have been tempted to buy
one, just to shove it up the carbon toting packs at the vets racing.


A laudable goal. But "get wood" was being used in a colloquial way.

--
That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, Bingo.
  #7  
Old September 16th 10, 11:58 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,041
Default Why wooden rims are superior to carbon fibre reinforced plastic rims

On Sep 16, 7:51*pm, "MikeWhy" wrote:
See:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsaMb7Wuinw


I actually looked into getting bamboo of a quality suitable for making
a bike and it was basically no-go. The available stuff all looked like
scaffolding rejects, or if strong enough was way too big. Guy in one
of those former Iron Curtain countries made a carbon bike and then a
bamboo bike, both successful, but he wrote later that -- after so much
trouble getting decent bamboo -- if he did it again, he would grow his
own! -- AJ

"Andre Jute" wrote in message

...



As noted elsewhere, I have considerable experience in structural
reinforced plastics. As a reminder to those who think the carbon in
carbon fibre is the important component, no it isn't. The important
component is the epoxy, the plastic. The carbon fibre by itself is so
brittle as to be useless. It is only in combination with the plastic
(epoxy) that the carbon becomes useful in any engineering sense.


The largest and most successful structure I designed and built was a
68ft transocean racing yacht in moulded wood or, if you will, in wood-
fibre-reinforced plastic. That impressed the virtues of laminated wood
indelibly on me.


In a contemporary thread we hear much about the troubles carbon fiber
rims are liable to. It doesn't take a genius to see that, in every
possible engineering sense, a wooden rim is superior to a carbon fiber
rim.


Yes, I know, the wooden rim brakes badly in the wet, is a high-
maintenance item, and ultimately cannot be made as light as a carbon
rim. So? Do carbon rims brake well? Or, when you've made the carbon
rim lighter than the wooden rim, doesn't the carbon rim instantly
become a disposable item with short service life?


In particular, wood is superior in its failure mode, in exactly the
same way as steel is superior to other bicycle materials in its
failure mode. Wood has more in common with good steel, in that when
properly laminated into shape, wood is about the same strength as
bicycle steel tubes, though it might be made to weigh the same as
aluminium or less. But laminated wood fails as progressively as steel,
not suddenly and catastrophically like carbon reinforced plastic. Wood
just isn't brittle like that shiny rubbish.


I'm really surprised that we don't see more wood in bicycles.


There's a substantial section on engineering moving mechanisms in wood
in my book DESIGNING AND BUILDING SPECIAL CARS (Batsford, London;
Bentley, Boston; etc).


Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Bicycles at
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/...20CYCLING.html


  #8  
Old September 17th 10, 12:54 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James[_8_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,093
Default Why wooden rims are superior to carbon fibre reinforced plastic rims

On Sep 17, 8:58*am, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sep 16, 7:51*pm, "MikeWhy" wrote:

See:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsaMb7Wuinw


I actually looked into getting bamboo of a quality suitable for making
a bike and it was basically no-go. The available stuff all looked like
scaffolding rejects, or if strong enough was way too big. Guy in one
of those former Iron Curtain countries made a carbon bike and then a
bamboo bike, both successful, but he wrote later that -- after so much
trouble getting decent bamboo -- if he did it again, he would grow his
own! -- AJ


I thought bamboo was a member of the grass family. Is the material
really classified as wood?

I know a 75 year old ex track rider who's got a few wooden rims still
hanging in his garage that he used to race on. My brother's got one
too I think. Don't know that he's ever ridden it though.

JS.
  #9  
Old September 17th 10, 01:02 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Michael Press
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,202
Default Why wooden rims are superior to carbon fibre reinforced plastic rims

In article
,
James wrote:

On Sep 17, 4:20*am, "D'ohBoy" wrote:
On Sep 16, 12:48*pm, Andre Jute wrote:


I'm really surprised that we don't see more wood in bicycles.


Can you even get wood?


Yes. http://www.renovobikes.com/

Had I been able to test ride one I would have been tempted to buy one,
just to shove it up the carbon toting packs at the vets racing.


Wood splinters into daggers.
Do not crash one of those frames.

--
Michael Press
  #10  
Old September 17th 10, 04:10 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,398
Default Why wooden rims are superior to carbon fibre reinforced plastic rims

On Thu, 16 Sep 2010 15:06:35 -0700 (PDT), James
wrote:

On Sep 17, 4:20*am, "D'ohBoy" wrote:
On Sep 16, 12:48*pm, Andre Jute wrote:


I'm really surprised that we don't see more wood in bicycles.


Can you even get wood?


Yes. http://www.renovobikes.com/

Had I been able to test ride one I would have been tempted to buy one,
just to shove it up the carbon toting packs at the vets racing.


How about an all wood bicycle? No epoxy required:
http://www.geekologie.com/2008/01/boy_builds_bicycle_entirely_ou.php

Wood frame concept bicycle:
http://2009.gp.co.at/works/jano/
More, with photos of other strange wood bicycles:
http://2009.gp.co.at/stayfocused/jano/downloads/jano_thesis_screen96dpi.pdf

and mo
http://www.bmeres.com
http://www.woodbike.com

Watch out for wood termites.


--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
# http://802.11junk.com
#
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS
 




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