Article about SRAM in Forbes

On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 11:15:22 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/18/2019 3:58 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, September 17, 2019 at 2:35:03 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/17/2019 2:21 PM, wrote:


OK. As long as you know you are doing the change for completely aesthetic reasons. For performance, there ain't no difference. I have Record, Chorus, Centaur, Veloce, and a Mirage part or two on 9 and 10 speed bikes. No difference in performance.


+1


Record and Chorus are MILES ahead of the rest of the line in performance. The throw is less and the motions of the components are such that you don't have to mess about nearly do much to stop noises.

I absolutely would have kept Centaur or below if there weren't these differences because the price difference is so substantial. Even the Record cassettes shift cleaner. The Record cable set and the chains are better.

Though I am presently testing one of those Connex super-chains and so far it seems to be the best I've used. No noises and shifts great after 400+ miles. I think that you're the one that recommended that and if so you're seem to be 100% correct.

OK: Since I have worked on only a few Campy components and owned even
fewer, can someone detail the mechanical and/or material differences
between the different levels of Campy equipment? To keep it simple,
let's discuss just the rear derailleurs. I'm just curious.


My experience is limited to Chorus ergo, Mirage Ergo, and Athena Ergo, all mid/late 90s vintage. The Mirage and Athena weren't too far apart, but the chorus was noticeably better, WAY better. It was more smooth, gave much better tactile feedback, seemed to set-up easier. Over the years, the Chorus has held up better as well. That's just my experience. I was also using SRAM cassettes at the time, so this applies to 'just rear derailleurs'.

On 9/19/2019 9:14 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 11:15:22 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:

OK: Since I have worked on only a few Campy components and owned even
fewer, can someone detail the mechanical and/or material differences
between the different levels of Campy equipment? To keep it simple,
let's discuss just the rear derailleurs. I'm just curious.

My experience is limited to Chorus ergo, Mirage Ergo, and Athena Ergo, all mid/late 90s vintage. The Mirage and Athena weren't too far apart, but the chorus was noticeably better, WAY better. It was more smooth, gave much better tactile feedback, seemed to set-up easier. Over the years, the Chorus has held up better as well. That's just my experience. I was also using SRAM cassettes at the time, so this applies to 'just rear derailleurs'.

I don't doubt your evaluation of the characteristics. But I'm still
curious about the specific mechanical and/or material differences that
generated those characteristics.

For example, ISTR hearing that decades ago, Campy derailleurs had
separate bushings for the various pivots, whereas most manufacturers
simply pivoted the main castings or forgings on the pivot pins, with no
separate bushings.

And of course, I may be wrong. I've worked on only a few Campy
derailleurs, and never considered disassembling the parallelogram. But
I'm curious about the technical/mechanical detail differences between
their models.



--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 8:15:22 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/18/2019 3:58 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, September 17, 2019 at 2:35:03 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/17/2019 2:21 PM, wrote:


OK. As long as you know you are doing the change for completely aesthetic reasons. For performance, there ain't no difference. I have Record, Chorus, Centaur, Veloce, and a Mirage part or two on 9 and 10 speed bikes. No difference in performance.


+1


Record and Chorus are MILES ahead of the rest of the line in performance. The throw is less and the motions of the components are such that you don't have to mess about nearly do much to stop noises.

I absolutely would have kept Centaur or below if there weren't these differences because the price difference is so substantial. Even the Record cassettes shift cleaner. The Record cable set and the chains are better.

Though I am presently testing one of those Connex super-chains and so far it seems to be the best I've used. No noises and shifts great after 400+ miles. I think that you're the one that recommended that and if so you're seem to be 100% correct.

OK: Since I have worked on only a few Campy components and owned even
fewer, can someone detail the mechanical and/or material differences
between the different levels of Campy equipment? To keep it simple,
let's discuss just the rear derailleurs. I'm just curious.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank, are you saying that there's no difference between Shimano Tiagra and DuraAce? Please mak3e that clear.

On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 1:25:29 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/19/2019 9:14 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 11:15:22 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:

OK: Since I have worked on only a few Campy components and owned even
fewer, can someone detail the mechanical and/or material differences
between the different levels of Campy equipment? To keep it simple,
let's discuss just the rear derailleurs. I'm just curious.

My experience is limited to Chorus ergo, Mirage Ergo, and Athena Ergo, all mid/late 90s vintage. The Mirage and Athena weren't too far apart, but the chorus was noticeably better, WAY better. It was more smooth, gave much better tactile feedback, seemed to set-up easier. Over the years, the Chorus has held up better as well. That's just my experience. I was also using SRAM cassettes at the time, so this applies to 'just rear derailleurs'.

I don't doubt your evaluation of the characteristics. But I'm still
curious about the specific mechanical and/or material differences that
generated those characteristics.

For example, ISTR hearing that decades ago, Campy derailleurs had
separate bushings for the various pivots, whereas most manufacturers
simply pivoted the main castings or forgings on the pivot pins, with no
separate bushings.

And of course, I may be wrong. I've worked on only a few Campy
derailleurs, and never considered disassembling the parallelogram. But
I'm curious about the technical/mechanical detail differences between
their models.



--
- Frank Krygowski

Tell us Frank, what is the difference in SLX tubing set between the toptube and the seat stay?

On 9/19/2019 1:25 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/19/2019 9:14 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 11:15:22 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

OK: Since I have worked on only a few Campy components and owned even
fewer, can someone detail the mechanical and/or material differences
between the different levels of Campy equipment? To keep it simple,
let's discuss just the rear derailleurs. I'm just curious.

My experience is limited to Chorus ergo, Mirage Ergo, and Athena Ergo,
all mid/late 90s vintage. The Mirage and Athena weren't too far apart,
but the chorus was noticeably better, WAY better. It was more smooth,
gave much better tactile feedback, seemed to set-up easier. Over the
years, the Chorus has held up better as well. That's just my
experience. I was also using SRAM cassettes at the time, so this
applies to 'just rear derailleurs'.

I don't doubt your evaluation of the characteristics. But I'm still
curious about the specific mechanical and/or material differences that
generated those characteristics.

For example, ISTR hearing that decades ago, Campy derailleurs had
separate bushings for the various pivots, whereas most manufacturers
simply pivoted the main castings or forgings on the pivot pins, with no
separate bushings.

And of course, I may be wrong. I've worked on only a few Campy
derailleurs, and never considered disassembling the parallelogram. But
I'm curious about the technical/mechanical detail differences between
their models.

Dunno about the /derailleur/ bushings, but Campy makes a big deal out of
the fact that the Chorus & Record brifters have (had?) ball bearings on
the shifting "axle". Centaur and Veloce don't, and I don't know about
the others.

On my various bikes, I've ridden extensively on Chorus brifters and a
fair bit on Centaur. Years back I had a set of much older Veloce
brifters (the 90's design with "pointy" hoods). I've rebuild them all,
so I know the Chorus bearings really are there, but darn if I can tell
that they make a difference.

It may address your general question to note that at times the
difference between some models of various Campy components have been
whether the bolts are titanium or steel, or whether parts are carbon,
metal, or some other composite (i.e. plastic). Usually these
differences are noticeable only in weight alone, or visual appearance,
if then.

I've found Veloce to be quite serviceable, and probably really suitable
for all needs of us mortals. Chorus is quite nice and often prettier;
I'm not sure I would notice the performance difference. I have only a
few Record bits, they were what was available on Ebay at the time.

Mark J.

On 9/19/2019 4:34 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 1:25:29 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/19/2019 9:14 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 11:15:22 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:

OK: Since I have worked on only a few Campy components and owned even
fewer, can someone detail the mechanical and/or material differences
between the different levels of Campy equipment? To keep it simple,
let's discuss just the rear derailleurs. I'm just curious.

My experience is limited to Chorus ergo, Mirage Ergo, and Athena Ergo, all mid/late 90s vintage. The Mirage and Athena weren't too far apart, but the chorus was noticeably better, WAY better. It was more smooth, gave much better tactile feedback, seemed to set-up easier. Over the years, the Chorus has held up better as well. That's just my experience. I was also using SRAM cassettes at the time, so this applies to 'just rear derailleurs'.

I don't doubt your evaluation of the characteristics. But I'm still
curious about the specific mechanical and/or material differences that
generated those characteristics.

For example, ISTR hearing that decades ago, Campy derailleurs had
separate bushings for the various pivots, whereas most manufacturers
simply pivoted the main castings or forgings on the pivot pins, with no
separate bushings.

And of course, I may be wrong. I've worked on only a few Campy
derailleurs, and never considered disassembling the parallelogram. But
I'm curious about the technical/mechanical detail differences between
their models.



--
- Frank Krygowski

Tell us Frank, what is the difference in SLX tubing set between the toptube and the seat stay?


Both are Cyclex material, seamless, but the seat tube is
butted and rifled on one end, the seat stay is not.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 5:48:25 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/19/2019 4:34 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 1:25:29 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/19/2019 9:14 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 11:15:22 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:

OK: Since I have worked on only a few Campy components and owned even
fewer, can someone detail the mechanical and/or material differences
between the different levels of Campy equipment? To keep it simple,
let's discuss just the rear derailleurs. I'm just curious.

My experience is limited to Chorus ergo, Mirage Ergo, and Athena Ergo, all mid/late 90s vintage. The Mirage and Athena weren't too far apart, but the chorus was noticeably better, WAY better. It was more smooth, gave much better tactile feedback, seemed to set-up easier. Over the years, the Chorus has held up better as well. That's just my experience. I was also using SRAM cassettes at the time, so this applies to 'just rear derailleurs'.

I don't doubt your evaluation of the characteristics. But I'm still
curious about the specific mechanical and/or material differences that
generated those characteristics.

For example, ISTR hearing that decades ago, Campy derailleurs had
separate bushings for the various pivots, whereas most manufacturers
simply pivoted the main castings or forgings on the pivot pins, with no
separate bushings.

And of course, I may be wrong. I've worked on only a few Campy
derailleurs, and never considered disassembling the parallelogram. But
I'm curious about the technical/mechanical detail differences between
their models.



--
- Frank Krygowski

Tell us Frank, what is the difference in SLX tubing set between the toptube and the seat stay?


Both are Cyclex material, seamless, but the seat tube is
butted and rifled on one end, the seat stay is not.


You're wrong! The answer is one is a top tube and the other is a seat stay! It was one of TK's trick questions.

My rule of thumb is that Ultegra is good enough and sometimes better than the prior generation of Dura Ace from which it trickled down. My knowledge of Campagnolo ended at Super-Record-the-first. I did have some first generation 8sp Sachs Ergo shifters on my tandem that were manufactured by Campy, and they were like a hand operated grist mill. The internals were like the opening credit from a Lyons Gate film. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyEJd80Fdi4 I trust that the Campy technology has marched on.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 9/19/2019 5:34 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 1:25:29 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/19/2019 9:14 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 11:15:22 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:

OK: Since I have worked on only a few Campy components and owned even
fewer, can someone detail the mechanical and/or material differences
between the different levels of Campy equipment? To keep it simple,
let's discuss just the rear derailleurs. I'm just curious.

My experience is limited to Chorus ergo, Mirage Ergo, and Athena Ergo, all mid/late 90s vintage. The Mirage and Athena weren't too far apart, but the chorus was noticeably better, WAY better. It was more smooth, gave much better tactile feedback, seemed to set-up easier. Over the years, the Chorus has held up better as well. That's just my experience. I was also using SRAM cassettes at the time, so this applies to 'just rear derailleurs'.

I don't doubt your evaluation of the characteristics. But I'm still
curious about the specific mechanical and/or material differences that
generated those characteristics.

For example, ISTR hearing that decades ago, Campy derailleurs had
separate bushings for the various pivots, whereas most manufacturers
simply pivoted the main castings or forgings on the pivot pins, with no
separate bushings.

And of course, I may be wrong. I've worked on only a few Campy
derailleurs, and never considered disassembling the parallelogram. But
I'm curious about the technical/mechanical detail differences between
their models.



--
- Frank Krygowski

Tell us Frank, what is the difference in SLX tubing set between the toptube and the seat stay?

Non sequitur much? Sheesh!


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 9/19/2019 5:32 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 8:15:22 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/18/2019 3:58 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, September 17, 2019 at 2:35:03 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/17/2019 2:21 PM, wrote:


OK. As long as you know you are doing the change for completely aesthetic reasons. For performance, there ain't no difference. I have Record, Chorus, Centaur, Veloce, and a Mirage part or two on 9 and 10 speed bikes. No difference in performance.


+1


Record and Chorus are MILES ahead of the rest of the line in performance. The throw is less and the motions of the components are such that you don't have to mess about nearly do much to stop noises.

I absolutely would have kept Centaur or below if there weren't these differences because the price difference is so substantial. Even the Record cassettes shift cleaner. The Record cable set and the chains are better.

Though I am presently testing one of those Connex super-chains and so far it seems to be the best I've used. No noises and shifts great after 400+ miles. I think that you're the one that recommended that and if so you're seem to be 100% correct.

OK: Since I have worked on only a few Campy components and owned even
fewer, can someone detail the mechanical and/or material differences
between the different levels of Campy equipment? To keep it simple,
let's discuss just the rear derailleurs. I'm just curious.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank, are you saying that there's no difference between Shimano Tiagra and DuraAce? Please mak3e that clear.

No, Tom. And damn, I'm trying to ask a serious technical question! Don't
ascribe evil intent to a question about mechanical design!

At least some people say there is a difference in feel or performance
between different levels of Campy equipment. Ditto for top levels of
Shimano equipment. I'm a mechanical engineer. I'm curious about the
mechanical reasons for the differences.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 9/19/2019 9:08 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 5:48:25 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/19/2019 4:34 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 1:25:29 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/19/2019 9:14 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 11:15:22 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:

OK: Since I have worked on only a few Campy components and owned even
fewer, can someone detail the mechanical and/or material differences
between the different levels of Campy equipment? To keep it simple,
let's discuss just the rear derailleurs. I'm just curious.

My experience is limited to Chorus ergo, Mirage Ergo, and Athena Ergo, all mid/late 90s vintage. The Mirage and Athena weren't too far apart, but the chorus was noticeably better, WAY better. It was more smooth, gave much better tactile feedback, seemed to set-up easier. Over the years, the Chorus has held up better as well. That's just my experience. I was also using SRAM cassettes at the time, so this applies to 'just rear derailleurs'.

I don't doubt your evaluation of the characteristics. But I'm still
curious about the specific mechanical and/or material differences that
generated those characteristics.

For example, ISTR hearing that decades ago, Campy derailleurs had
separate bushings for the various pivots, whereas most manufacturers
simply pivoted the main castings or forgings on the pivot pins, with no
separate bushings.

And of course, I may be wrong. I've worked on only a few Campy
derailleurs, and never considered disassembling the parallelogram. But
I'm curious about the technical/mechanical detail differences between
their models.



--
- Frank Krygowski

Tell us Frank, what is the difference in SLX tubing set between the toptube and the seat stay?


Both are Cyclex material, seamless, but the seat tube is
butted and rifled on one end, the seat stay is not.


You're wrong! The answer is one is a top tube and the other is a seat stay! It was one of TK's trick questions.

My rule of thumb is that Ultegra is good enough and sometimes better than the prior generation of Dura Ace from which it trickled down. My knowledge of Campagnolo ended at Super-Record-the-first. I did have some first generation 8sp Sachs Ergo shifters on my tandem that were manufactured by Campy, and they were like a hand operated grist mill. The internals were like the opening credit from a Lyons Gate film. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyEJd80Fdi4 I trust that the Campy technology has marched on.

-- Jay Beattie.


Indeed it has.
'Rebuildable' was abandoned for 'disposable' over ten years ago.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971