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Bicycle bottle diameters, why different?



 
 
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  #51  
Old March 22nd 18, 01:22 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 9,760
Default Bicycle bottle diameters, why different?

On 3/21/2018 7:14 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
I just bought a kit of ring spanners from
"Alpha Tools", I think it is a low-end brand,
either that, or this particular kit was of
so-so quality, is my intuition. Anyway they are
"DIN 838". On a double open-end spanner, which
is a Heyco 10 and 13mm, it says "DIN 895".
It would be interesting to see what they say if
anyone found them on the web and care to
share...



https://duckduckgo.com/?q=DIN+838&t=...ages&ia=images

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=DIN+895&t=...ages&ia=images

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


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  #52  
Old March 22nd 18, 01:24 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg[_2_]
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Posts: 1,035
Default Bicycle bottle diameters, why different?

Radey Shouman wrote:

Wikipedia is plainly not organized for that
sort of purpose. All facts in it are supposed
to be verifiable using some external expert
source


This is the old cathedral vs. bazaar all over,
and the bazaar has won.

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
  #53  
Old March 22nd 18, 02:04 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
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Posts: 3,967
Default Bicycle bottle diameters, why different?

On Thu, 22 Mar 2018 01:14:24 +0100, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

I just bought a kit of ring spanners from
"Alpha Tools", I think it is a low-end brand,
either that, or this particular kit was of
so-so quality, is my intuition. Anyway they are
"DIN 838". On a double open-end spanner, which
is a Heyco 10 and 13mm, it says "DIN 895".
It would be interesting to see what they say if
anyone found them on the web and care to
share...



DIN 838
Box wrenches, double head - Test torques series A
Standard by Deutsches Institut Fur Normung E.V. (German National
Standard), 09/01/2007

DIN 895
Engineers wrenches for subordinate applications - Dimensions and test
torques
Standard by Deutsches Institut Fur Normung E.V. (German National
Standard), 09/01/2007

The details of each standard are available from the Institute upon
paying a fee.
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #54  
Old March 22nd 18, 02:07 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,967
Default Bicycle bottle diameters, why different?

On Wed, 21 Mar 2018 20:08:29 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

Emanuel Berg writes:

Radey Shouman wrote:

Wikipedia is a standards body? I didn't see
any reference to an outside document.


Why not? Are we supposed to put more stock in
people who first boast of their standards
making the world better, then won't even reveal
their standards free of charge when it is just
a matter of duplicating a bunch of 0s and 1s on
a web server?


Wikipedia is plainly not organized for that sort of purpose.
All facts in it are supposed to be verifiable using some external expert
source -- Wikipedia is explicitly *not* for the first publication.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability

Which is why I thought it odd that no reference or link was provided to
reference to the 73 mm "standard" diameter. Perhaps I missed it.


The sections you mention had a note that they required further
editing. Perhaps because they mention a definite size and did not
provide a reference.
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #55  
Old March 22nd 18, 02:22 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Radey Shouman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,074
Default Bicycle bottle diameters, why different?

John B. writes:

On Wed, 21 Mar 2018 20:08:29 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

Emanuel Berg writes:

Radey Shouman wrote:

Wikipedia is a standards body? I didn't see
any reference to an outside document.

Why not? Are we supposed to put more stock in
people who first boast of their standards
making the world better, then won't even reveal
their standards free of charge when it is just
a matter of duplicating a bunch of 0s and 1s on
a web server?


Wikipedia is plainly not organized for that sort of purpose.
All facts in it are supposed to be verifiable using some external expert
source -- Wikipedia is explicitly *not* for the first publication.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability

Which is why I thought it odd that no reference or link was provided to
reference to the 73 mm "standard" diameter. Perhaps I missed it.


The sections you mention had a note that they required further
editing. Perhaps because they mention a definite size and did not
provide a reference.


I didn't see that. All sections have an "edit" link, so you, or someone
else can edit them. There are some sections that say "citation needed",
but not the 73 mm pronouncement. I have never edited a Wikipedia entry,
so take what I say with a grain of salt.

--
  #56  
Old March 22nd 18, 11:14 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,967
Default Bicycle bottle diameters, why different?

On Wed, 21 Mar 2018 21:22:29 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Wed, 21 Mar 2018 20:08:29 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

Emanuel Berg writes:

Radey Shouman wrote:

Wikipedia is a standards body? I didn't see
any reference to an outside document.

Why not? Are we supposed to put more stock in
people who first boast of their standards
making the world better, then won't even reveal
their standards free of charge when it is just
a matter of duplicating a bunch of 0s and 1s on
a web server?

Wikipedia is plainly not organized for that sort of purpose.
All facts in it are supposed to be verifiable using some external expert
source -- Wikipedia is explicitly *not* for the first publication.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability

Which is why I thought it odd that no reference or link was provided to
reference to the 73 mm "standard" diameter. Perhaps I missed it.


The sections you mention had a note that they required further
editing. Perhaps because they mention a definite size and did not
provide a reference.


I didn't see that. All sections have an "edit" link, so you, or someone
else can edit them. There are some sections that say "citation needed",
but not the 73 mm pronouncement. I have never edited a Wikipedia entry,
so take what I say with a grain of salt.


I *think* that any Wikki page can be edited at any time. At least I
remember someone on another site complaining about posting something
on the Wikki and later finding it edited to "correct it". His
complaint was that his original entry was factually correct and the
edited version was incorrect and he was trying to find some method of
locking his post so it couldn't be changed. I gathered that there was
no way that an entry could be prevented from being edited.

But then, I've never posted anything to the Wikki :-(
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #57  
Old March 22nd 18, 01:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 195
Default Bicycle bottle diameters, why different?

On 21/03/2018 4:59 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 21, 2018 at 12:30:10 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-21 12:20, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 21, 2018 at 11:39:48 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-21 08:49, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 21, 2018 at 7:51:31 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-20 17:48, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 4:44:59 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-20 15:54, sms wrote:
On 3/20/2018 3:18 PM, Joerg wrote:

snip

The question is, how do you know if a bottle is proper
when buying one online?

Stansport is primarly a camping equipment company. Buy
from a supplier of bicycle equipment.


But is sez "bike bottle" ...

https://www.stansport.com/bike-bottle-26-oz-214-26

I guess they need to learn and test their designs before
release.


I like the Clean Designs bottle
https://www.cleanbottle.com/


30 bucks, yikes. I like their bottom screw lid though.
Thanks, will look for that brand then.


Hmmmm. I wonder where you could buy a water bottle?
https://tinyurl.com/y9zbb7fg


I wrote that I have a source for fitting bottles, I could just
buy more from Cal Gear because they fit like a glove.

The reason for my post was to find out why there isn't a real
standard. Like there is for wheel diameters, tires (well,
maybe with the exception of some Contis). I guess nobody
knows.

There is a standard -- 73mm.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bottle_cage You bought a ****ty
water bottle from an outdoor equipment company that probably drew
a bottle on the back of napkin, gave it to some OE plastic bottle
manufacturer in PRC and then marketed the results as a bicycle
water bottle. Its like complaining about Walmart bikes. I
wouldn't be surprised if the bottle is radioactive and full of
carcinogens.

What's more surprising to me is that your cages cannot
accommodate a 1mm variance.


It's almost 2mm and as I wrote the indentation is also way off.


You need better cages. You can also avoid the whole issue by
going over to your lauded trail-end bike shop, Sam's Town
Cyclery, and buying bottles that you know will fit. Fly the
colors! Support your LBS.


I will if his prices are reasonable and he has 25oz bottles. His
web site is, ahem, not quite there yet.

Who cares about price! The spread couldn't be more than a buck or
two, and you want to support the shop. You get cool looking bottles
with graphics that make you part of the Sam's Town Cyclery in-crowd.
People will come up to you on the trail while you're petting horses
and want to talk about Sam's Town. You'll make friends and influence
people.


For about 20-30 rides, then the bottle looks blackish and sand-blasted
and nothing will be readable.


I'm about to walk over to the Bike Gallery to buy a tube and some
glue (flat on the way to work, old glue tube dried out and wrong size
spare tube). I might just get the glue. Anyway, I'll get scalped,
but for what -- a $1? They're nice guys and worked hard to coordinate
the delivery of my Trek from Trek Co. Shout out to Justin. Anyway, I
get endless free advice from them, and it does not pain me to pay a
little more than internet bargain-basement prices for disposables.
Yes, there is a point when it becomes highway robbery for a tube, but
BG is not that kind of shop. You also have to look at it as an
average. I've gotten some killer sale-table deals from BG.


I don't mind either if it's a couple of buck more. Got to support the
local guys which is why I bought my MTB locally for about $100 more
versus online. What I do mind is if stuff costs 5x or more versus
online. As is often the case with brake pads, caliper extenders, lights
and so on.


And then there is just getting screwed by everyone on price, i.e., things that used to be cheap are expensive everywhere. For example, at Bike Gallery:

1. 5g tube of Rema glue: $2.50. Crap! So, on line, $5.92 plus free shipping at Amazon. $2.95 at Tree Fort. http://www.treefortbikes.com/product...Gram-Tube.html $8.95 plus free shipping at Niagra. https://www.niagaracycle.com/categor...id-5-gram-tube $3.99 at Universal across town. Incroyable! What is up with that?


2.


I try to support the LBS as much as possible. For tubes I can save a
couple of bucks buying online but I usually have to buy enough to avoid
shipping costs and then hope that I don't get hit with duty. So I just
buy them from the shop.

Tires on the other hand are getting ridiculous. I can get a pair of
Conti GP4000s from ChainReactionCycles for the price of one tire locally.
  #58  
Old March 22nd 18, 02:43 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Radey Shouman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,074
Default Bicycle bottle diameters, why different?

John B. writes:

On Wed, 21 Mar 2018 21:22:29 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Wed, 21 Mar 2018 20:08:29 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

Emanuel Berg writes:

Radey Shouman wrote:

Wikipedia is a standards body? I didn't see
any reference to an outside document.

Why not? Are we supposed to put more stock in
people who first boast of their standards
making the world better, then won't even reveal
their standards free of charge when it is just
a matter of duplicating a bunch of 0s and 1s on
a web server?

Wikipedia is plainly not organized for that sort of purpose.
All facts in it are supposed to be verifiable using some external expert
source -- Wikipedia is explicitly *not* for the first publication.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability

Which is why I thought it odd that no reference or link was provided to
reference to the 73 mm "standard" diameter. Perhaps I missed it.

The sections you mention had a note that they required further
editing. Perhaps because they mention a definite size and did not
provide a reference.


I didn't see that. All sections have an "edit" link, so you, or someone
else can edit them. There are some sections that say "citation needed",
but not the 73 mm pronouncement. I have never edited a Wikipedia entry,
so take what I say with a grain of salt.


I *think* that any Wikki page can be edited at any time. At least I
remember someone on another site complaining about posting something
on the Wikki and later finding it edited to "correct it". His
complaint was that his original entry was factually correct and the
edited version was incorrect and he was trying to find some method of
locking his post so it couldn't be changed. I gathered that there was
no way that an entry could be prevented from being edited.

But then, I've never posted anything to the Wikki :-(


Edit wars are being waged, even now, on topics that at least two people
find controversial. Some of those people work for governments.

Not the ideal platform for hosting a standard.

--
  #59  
Old March 22nd 18, 02:51 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,331
Default Bicycle bottle diameters, why different?

On 3/22/2018 5:48 AM, Duane wrote:

Tires on the other hand are getting ridiculous.* I can get a pair of
Conti GP4000s from ChainReactionCycles for the price of one tire locally.


The margins on tires of all kinds are huge. It's like mattresses. So
there's a lot of room for discounting.

But the bigger issue is actually finding the tires you want in stock.
Jay has two large shops near him, as well as the Biketiresdirect pick-up
option. For most of us, it would mean a lot of driving around or calling
around to find the tires we wanted, and then paying 2x the price. Not
the shop's fault, you can't expect a shop to stock hundreds of sizes and
brands of tires.
  #60  
Old March 22nd 18, 02:58 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,420
Default Bicycle bottle diameters, why different?

On Wednesday, March 21, 2018 at 2:52:02 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
jbeattie writes:

On Wednesday, March 21, 2018 at 7:51:31 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-20 17:48, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 4:44:59 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-20 15:54, sms wrote:
On 3/20/2018 3:18 PM, Joerg wrote:

snip

The question is, how do you know if a bottle is proper when buying one
online?

Stansport is primarly a camping equipment company. Buy from a supplier
of bicycle equipment.


But is sez "bike bottle" ...

https://www.stansport.com/bike-bottle-26-oz-214-26

I guess they need to learn and test their designs before release.


I like the Clean Designs bottle https://www.cleanbottle.com/


30 bucks, yikes. I like their bottom screw lid though. Thanks, will look
for that brand then.


Hmmmm. I wonder where you could buy a water bottle?
https://tinyurl.com/y9zbb7fg


I wrote that I have a source for fitting bottles, I could just buy more
from Cal Gear because they fit like a glove.

The reason for my post was to find out why there isn't a real standard..
Like there is for wheel diameters, tires (well, maybe with the exception
of some Contis). I guess nobody knows.


There is a standard -- 73mm. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bottle_cage
You bought a ****ty water bottle from an outdoor equipment company
that probably drew a bottle on the back of napkin, gave it to some OE
plastic bottle manufacturer in PRC and then marketed the results as a
bicycle water bottle. Its like complaining about Walmart bikes. I
wouldn't be surprised if the bottle is radioactive and full of
carcinogens.


Wikipedia is a standards body? I didn't see any reference to an
outside document.


I don't know if there is a standards body, but there is certainly a de facto standard -- same with mounting bolt spacing. That doesn't mean a manufacturer has to follow the de facto standard, but variations have usually been sold as bottle-cage combos or been advertised as being non-standard, e.g. cage for disposable plastic water bottles, etc.

-- Jay Beattie.
 




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