Euphemism for Illegal Mountain Bike Trails: "Gray Trails"

From: "Jon Kennedy"
Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 17:55:24 -0000
Subject: Staff Night Out (5/30) -- Gray Area Conversation --

Come join Justin and Jon next Wednesday at the Redhook Brewery in
Woodinville for the fourth BBTC Staff Night Out.

At this pub night we want your feedback on what our policy on gray
trails should be. A gray trail is one where the land owner informally
allows us to maintain, build or use trails on their land, but there
is no formal written policy. Sometimes they like us there to keep the
meth heads and dumping out, but it is a "don't ask, don't tell" type
thing. Should we ignore gray trails, encourage their use, try to shut
them down, support their maintenance? We want to know what you think.
--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

"Mike Vandeman" wrote in message
...
From: "Jon Kennedy"
Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 17:55:24 -0000
Subject: Staff Night Out (5/30) -- Gray Area Conversation --

Come join Justin and Jon next Wednesday at the Redhook Brewery in
Woodinville for the fourth BBTC Staff Night Out.

At this pub night we want your feedback on what our policy on gray
trails should be. A gray trail is one where the land owner informally
allows us to maintain, build or use trails on their land, but there
is no formal written policy. Sometimes they like us there to keep the
meth heads and dumping out, but it is a "don't ask, don't tell" type
thing. Should we ignore gray trails, encourage their use, try to shut
them down, support their maintenance? We want to know what you think.


This is easy. The land owners have a problem, the bike riders keep the
problem to a minimum level, or eliminate it altogether. Don't ask, don't
tell.

The land owner might turn around tomorrow and decide that crack heads are a
better choice for whatever reason. No matter what policy is devised now, the
land owner has the final say -- assuming we are discussing private property.

Bottom line, you should not be there, but if nobody is objecting, take care
to not get hurt and then turn around and sue somebody.

In article ,
says...
From: "Jon Kennedy"
Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 17:55:24 -0000
Subject: Staff Night Out (5/30) -- Gray Area Conversation --

Come join Justin and Jon next Wednesday at the Redhook Brewery in
Woodinville for the fourth BBTC Staff Night Out.

At this pub night we want your feedback on what our policy on gray
trails should be. A gray trail is one where the land owner informally
allows us to maintain, build or use trails on their land, but there
is no formal written policy.

So it's illegal now for land owners to allow trails on their property?

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Updated Infrared Photography Gallery:
http://www.phred.org/~josh/photo/ir.html

On Wed, 23 May 2007 19:48:04 -0700, wrote:

In article ,
says...
From: "Jon Kennedy"
Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 17:55:24 -0000
Subject: Staff Night Out (5/30) -- Gray Area Conversation --

Come join Justin and Jon next Wednesday at the Redhook Brewery in
Woodinville for the fourth BBTC Staff Night Out.

At this pub night we want your feedback on what our policy on gray
trails should be. A gray trail is one where the land owner informally
allows us to maintain, build or use trails on their land, but there
is no formal written policy.

So it's illegal now for land owners to allow trails on their property?

No, it's illegal to trespass and damage private property. DUH! Leave
it to a mountain biker not to know that.
--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

On May 24, 9:31 am, Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Wed, 23 May 2007 19:48:04 -0700, wrote:
In article ,
says...
From: "Jon Kennedy"
Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 17:55:24 -0000
Subject: Staff Night Out (5/30) -- Gray Area Conversation --

Come join Justin and Jon next Wednesday at the Redhook Brewery in
Woodinville for the fourth BBTC Staff Night Out.

At this pub night we want your feedback on what our policy on gray
trails should be. A gray trail is one where the land owner informally
allows us to maintain, build or use trails on their land, but there
is no formal written policy.

So it's illegal now for land owners to allow trails on their property?

No, it's illegal to trespass and damage private property. DUH! Leave
it to a mountain biker not to know that.
--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

What don't you understand about "informally allows". That's not
trespassing. You spin faster than any politician.
A gray trail is one the land owners knows about and approves of, but
just doesn't want the riders to tell the world about it. The riders
thank the owner by keeping the trails in shape, land garbage free and
keeps the non desirables out.

In article ,
says...
On Wed, 23 May 2007 19:48:04 -0700, wrote:

In article ,
says...
From: "Jon Kennedy"
Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 17:55:24 -0000
Subject: Staff Night Out (5/30) -- Gray Area Conversation --

Come join Justin and Jon next Wednesday at the Redhook Brewery in
Woodinville for the fourth BBTC Staff Night Out.

At this pub night we want your feedback on what our policy on gray
trails should be. A gray trail is one where the land owner informally
allows us to maintain, build or use trails on their land, but there
is no formal written policy.

So it's illegal now for land owners to allow trails on their property?

No, it's illegal to trespass and damage private property. DUH! Leave
it to a mountain biker not to know that.

Which has exactly what to do with trails that the landowner has
specifically allowed, though not in writing?

Or did you not bother reading what you posted: "A gray trail is one
where the land owner informally allows us to maintain, build or use
trails on their land"


--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Updated Infrared Photography Gallery:
http://www.phred.org/~josh/photo/ir.html

On 2007-05-24, Mike Vandeman wrote:

On Wed, 23 May 2007 19:48:04 -0700, wrote:

In article ,
says...
From: "Jon Kennedy"
Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 17:55:24 -0000
Subject: Staff Night Out (5/30) -- Gray Area Conversation --

Come join Justin and Jon next Wednesday at the Redhook Brewery in
Woodinville for the fourth BBTC Staff Night Out.

At this pub night we want your feedback on what our policy on gray
trails should be. A gray trail is one where the land owner informally
allows us to maintain, build or use trails on their land, but there
is no formal written policy.

So it's illegal now for land owners to allow trails on their property?

No, it's illegal to trespass and damage private property. DUH! Leave
it to a mountain biker not to know that.


Actually, in many states being on other folks' land is not, in and
of itself, illegal or trespassing.

Depending of the state, the land may have to be fenced, posted at
specific intervals, or the landowner may have to order folks off
the land to make presence constitute trespass and be subject to
civil and criminal penalties.

California requires, IIRC, at a minimum of posting every third of
a mile along a property boundary plus posting at all places where
roads and trails enter the property.

This is kinda important to hikers, or there would be even more
access problems than there already are ...

Cheers, Wolf.


--
Dr. Brian Leverich Co-moderator, soc.genealogy.methods/GENMTD-L
Angeles Chapter LTC Admin Chair http://angeles.sierraclub.org/ltc/
P.O. Box 6831, Frazier Park, CA 93222-6831

Wolf Leverich wrote:
snip

Depending of the state, the land may have to be fenced, posted at
specific intervals, or the landowner may have to order folks off
the land to make presence constitute trespass and be subject to
civil and criminal penalties.

California requires, IIRC, at a minimum of posting every third of
a mile along a property boundary plus posting at all places where
roads and trails enter the property.

Wrong. I live in California and the rangers will give out a ticket even
knowing they are wrong. They play the odds that you won't plead not
guilty. I came down off of an unmarked fire trail once, not even sure
which park I was in, and the ranger wrote me a traffic ticket for riding
on a non-bike trail. I ate the ticket and then it showed up on my
driving record.

This is kinda important to hikers, or there would be even more
access problems than there already are ...

May be some of us in California should write about bad rangers.
Bill Baka

Cheers, Wolf.


--
Dr. Brian Leverich Co-moderator, soc.genealogy.methods/GENMTD-L
Angeles Chapter LTC Admin Chair http://angeles.sierraclub.org/ltc/
P.O. Box 6831, Frazier Park, CA 93222-6831

On 2007-05-24, Bill wrote:
Wolf Leverich wrote:
snip

Depending of the state, the land may have to be fenced, posted at
specific intervals, or the landowner may have to order folks off
the land to make presence constitute trespass and be subject to
civil and criminal penalties.

California requires, IIRC, at a minimum of posting every third of
a mile along a property boundary plus posting at all places where
roads and trails enter the property.

Wrong. I live in California and the rangers will give out a ticket even
knowing they are wrong. They play the odds that you won't plead not
guilty. I came down off of an unmarked fire trail once, not even sure
which park I was in, and the ranger wrote me a traffic ticket for riding
on a non-bike trail. I ate the ticket and then it showed up on my
driving record.

Oops, my bad.

I was responding to MV's apparent assertion that riding on
private property was automatically trespassing. It isn't.

I wouldn't be terrifically surprised, though, if riding
closed-to-bike trails on public lands is a citeable offense,
even if the trail isn't marked where you got on it.

One of my pet peeves is that if you're the CEO of Enron, the
government has to fly up its own arse to prove you intended to
break the law (though it's obvious even to the village idiot).
But if you're an ordinary Joe who gets screwed on something
like this, the fact that there was no reasonable way for you
to know you were in the wrong place isn't a defense at all.

This sucks.

###

This is kinda important to hikers, or there would be even more
access problems than there already are ...

May be some of us in California should write about bad rangers.
Bill Baka

Not a bad plan. Might at least get the trails marked better.

Cheers, Wolf.


--
Dr. Brian Leverich Co-moderator, soc.genealogy.methods/GENMTD-L
Angeles Chapter LTC Admin Chair http://angeles.sierraclub.org/ltc/
P.O. Box 6831, Frazier Park, CA 93222-6831

On 24 May 2007 09:57:04 -0700, SGK wrote:

On May 24, 9:31 am, Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Wed, 23 May 2007 19:48:04 -0700, wrote:
In article ,
says...
From: "Jon Kennedy"
Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 17:55:24 -0000
Subject: Staff Night Out (5/30) -- Gray Area Conversation --

Come join Justin and Jon next Wednesday at the Redhook Brewery in
Woodinville for the fourth BBTC Staff Night Out.

At this pub night we want your feedback on what our policy on gray
trails should be. A gray trail is one where the land owner informally
allows us to maintain, build or use trails on their land, but there
is no formal written policy.

So it's illegal now for land owners to allow trails on their property?

No, it's illegal to trespass and damage private property. DUH! Leave
it to a mountain biker not to know that.
--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

What don't you understand about "informally allows". That's not
trespassing. You spin faster than any politician.
A gray trail is one the land owners knows about and approves of, but
just doesn't want the riders to tell the world about it.

You completely missed the point: the mountain bikers CLAIM that they
have approval, but there is no proof, and none was presented. More
likely, they have just done it without asking (as usual), and have not
been caught yet. Why should they be any different from other mountain
bikers, a huge number of whom simply do what they want, and claim
ignorance later (they ARE ignorant, but not in that way; they are
ignorant of their environmental impact).

The riders
thank the owner by keeping the trails in shape, land garbage free and
keeps the non desirables out.
--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande