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#1391
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Bicyclist Fatalities in AZ 2009
On 12/14/2010 10:10 PM, DirtRoadie Who? wrote:
On Dec 14, 9:05 pm, Tºm Shermªn™ °_°""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI $southslope.net" wrote: On 12/14/2010 9:58 PM, DirtRoadie Who? wrote: On Dec 14, 4:05 pm, Jay wrote: On Dec 14, 12:03 pm, Michael wrote: In article , wrote: On Dec 13, 5:55 pm, T m Sherm n _""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI $southslope.net" wrote: On 12/13/2010 7:40 AM, Duane H bert wrote: On 12/11/2010 4:23 PM, T m Sherm n _ wrote: On 12/11/2010 12:29 PM, Duane Hebert wrote: "T m Sherm nT " wrote in ... On 12/11/2010 8:29 AM, Duane Hebert wrote: "T?m Sherm?n? " wrote in ... On 12/10/2010 11:28 PM, DirtRoadie WHO? ANONYMOUSLY SNIPES: Hmm. Given your fears, I suppose Quebec must have special Ground Meat Crews to scrape away all the dead cyclists! - Frank Krygowski **** you. +1 Good to see the maturity and civility of the group being preserved. /sarcasm Calling me a coward is bad enough but making light of the dead cyclists here, some of which were friends and all of which were persons, was a bit much. And lying/libel is not a bit much? Are you talking to me? No, it is a different Frank-Basher who hides behind a pseudonym while lying and committing libel by falsifying quotations. However, for some reason, this immoral behavior draws much less ire than Frank Krygowski's above board argumentation. Sorry Tom but just because Frank hasn't used profanity doesn't make his personal attacks any less irksome. As to your reference to DR, I'm not exactly sure which of his comments you're referring to. Look in this thread, and you will find multiple occasions where "DirtRoadie" altered quotations - I pointed out several of them in responses. No one else objects to this behavior, except for Phil W. Lee. Bingo! Tom has no grasp of parody (and does not even understand the word "libel" which he erroneously uses frequently) and has taken it upon himself to rid the world of his perceived moral outrage. He stalks the "perpetrators" in support of his role model for truth and virtue, Frank Krygowski. Look through this thread for any of my posts followed by a post from Tom. See if you see ANY suggestion of Tom offering substantive discussion. Some say he has a sense of humor. Perhaps he does, but I think he's just a fat angry old man with nothing to do but complain about how poorly the world treats him and those like him. I must step in here and disagree with the very last. Recumbent cyclists are shabbily treated indeed. It may become necessary to pass a hate law forbidding malicious denigration of recumbent cyclists. Hate on this!http://www.ransbikes.com/Gallery/Archive/Sherman.htm Hardly a fat old man, ... He sure sounds fat and old in his posts. DR http://www.teachnet.ie/dcorcoran/Photos/jersey.jpg Your school portrait? DR http://www.strongpunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/tumblr_krx608Yv501qznrhuo1_500.jpg -- Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007 I am a vehicular cyclist. |
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#1392
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Bicyclist Fatalities in AZ 2009
On Dec 14, 5:51 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Are you talking about fatalities among cyclists who are riding in daytime? Or are you talking about fatalities among cyclists riding at night with proper lights (including, as I do, with a taillight)? Or are you including the cyclists killed while riding non-urban roads at night with no proper lights or reflectors? And how are you counting those killed at night where lights or reflectors are not included one way or other in the accident report? How does this information change your opinion about "controlling lanes?" Well, since a) I'm sure the great unlit (and often inebriated) masses are included in those counts, and b) even if they were not, the "one quarter" would mean a minimum of 35 million miles ridden, on average, between those sorts of fatalities, it doesn't change my opinion at all. I don't expect to get anywhere near 35 million miles before I die of other causes. I am certain that even among proper, sober and well-lit bicyclists, straight up hits from behind accounted for far, far more fatalities than "dangerous passes." It doesn't matter, does it? What you have there is a belief system, an ideology, based on fantasy, and rather than alter or evolve your beliefs in the face of contrary facts, those contrary facts must instead be actively ignored, attacked and banished to protect the precious beliefs.. FACT: Even though relatively few American bicyclists "take the lane," bicyclists here (even sober, well-lit ones) are far, far more likely to be killed by a driver who doesn't see them at all and rams into them from behind than by one who sees them but fails to pass correctly. But how about you? In a previous post, you pointed out that you were largely agreeing with me. Remember? You said "If there is any oncoming traffic, anybody behind me will just have to travel my speed for a bit, no matter where I ride in a 10-foot lane." Meaning, it's physically impossible to pass a cyclist within a 10-foot lane in an 8.5-foot truck, even if the bicyclist decides to "skulk" next to the curb. It simply doesn't matter where you ride, not a bit, if there is any oncoming traffic the dude can't pass without running you down. In reality, the hardcore "skulker" "controls the lane" just as effectively as the professor riding right down the middle. Are we in agreement yet again? I hope so! So you now agree that: -- The entire idea of "controlling a lane" is absurd. -- Five feet is a pathetic and inadequate buffer to right side hazards, if there are any. In the absence of same-direction traffic, you should be riding much further left. -- The concept of Primary Position and Secondary Position is nonsensical and should be ridiculed, then abandoned. -- Bicyclists should help drivers pass by moving toward the right, even on narrow streets. -- Bicyclists who fixate on close passes and "preventing dangerous passes" etc. have misplaced fears. Traffic management philosophies based on such misguided fears should be ridiculed and abandoned at first opportunity. Glad we could clear all that up. |
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Bicyclist Fatalities in AZ 2009
On Dec 14, 5:13 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Dec 14, 7:21 am, "Duane Hebert" wrote: "Frank Krygowski" wrote: You're echoing Duane's worries about the road he showed in the street view - the one that looked like our metro park, or like the ones my club members and I seek out for rides in the country. Leave me out of your attempts to force everyone else to do what you want. Sorry, Duane, but you're not making sense. I'm not attempting to force anyone to do anything, because there's no way I could do that. Even if you choose to ride wrong-way down a freeway at night without lights, I can't force you not to. This is a discussion group. I'm discussing what I think is correct cycling, and why - including data, citations, quotes and logic. You're always free to ignore all that and ride as you like. Stop pouring your derision on it, please. |
#1394
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Bicyclist Fatalities in AZ 2009
On Dec 14, 8:50*pm, DirtRoadie wrote:
On Dec 14, 4:34*pm, Frank Krygowski wrote: On Dec 13, 11:20*pm, RobertH wrote: On Dec 13, 7:55 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote: Robert, IIRC you never did answer the question I asked. No you do not RC. I did answer it, multiple times, with specifics. Here's a helpful link: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...20c84269d8cbc1 It's at this point where I start to wonder, has Frank really missed my multiple answers to his question, or is he just playing a pathetic game to avoid the issues I raised in those posts? IIRC this has been a pattern with Frank. AGAIN: I would ride further left than you. Primary position doesn't do it for me. If the space is available, use it. Then, if a truck wanted to pass, I would probably drift right to enable an easier pass, *he would pass in the typical fashion on narrow streets/roads of going way over the center line, and everybody would go along their way without incident. If there is any oncoming traffic, anybody behind me will just have to travel my speed for a bit, no matter where I ride in a 10-foot lane. Some people have trouble visualizing how narrow that really is. Ah. *So your disagreement with me is that when I ride in the middle of the lane, I'm _still_ too far to the right! *But you agree with me that when the lane is too narrow *for safe passing, you'd be far enough out to prevent unsafe in-lane passing and cause those behind you to just travel at your speed. That's good. *Thanks. I wonder if you'll now be attacked by others calling you things like "hall monitor." - Frank "OAFAAF" Krygowski "Hall Monitor Syndrome" *- I guess we will see, but I see RH describing quite different scenario from you, Frank. This is part of why I see you having severe tunnel vision. Your one and only focus is your position in the lane, *down to the foot. And you have foolishly demanded of others that they give a "footage" measurement to describe how they ride. I addressed that previously by noting "... nobody here is so stupid as to think that the 'footage' measurement has much relevance to safe and/ or legal riding." In contrast RH describes the surrounding circumstances. *Yes, he uses a lane but his understanding is far more comprehensive and he does not remotely suggest that he is trying to (or could) control traffic nor that his position in the lane has any bearing on whether a following vehicle can pass safely some. RH himself or others can comment. Done http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...17916910?hl=en And, Frank, your rhetorical questions are childish. If you want to tell us something, tell us. DR |
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Bicyclist Fatalities in AZ 2009
"Tºm ShermªnT °_°" " wrote in message ... On 12/14/2010 6:02 AM, Duane Hebert wrote: wrote in message ... DirtRoadie wrote: On Dec 13, 4:29 pm, wrote: DirtRoadie wrote: On Dec 13, 3:49 pm, wrote: It is interesting that you bring up the spectre of sudden death by close pass. What do you think accounts for a larger portion of cyclist fatalities -- too-close passes or drivers completely failing to notice the cyclist in front of them? That's easy. A "too close" pass is never fatal. It can't be "too close" unless it is completed. It's the "incomplete passes" that create problems. DR The only exception is when a "too close" pass causes the cyclist to panic, wobble, loose control and crash. The air currents associated with large fast moving vehicles are sometimes enough to cause problems, even to more experienced cyclists who do not panic just because of a close call. Agreed. I was being a bit facetious. I could tell. And one of my personal "too close" experiences involved taking the passenger side extended mirror of a pickup truck against the back of my arm. I was climbing at probably 10ish mph and the truck was probably doing the speed limit or better - 60ish mph. I was very thankful that the encounter was not any closer than it was. Indeed, too close for comfort. On occasion they've nipped passed too close in traffic, and I catch them at the next set of lights, a good whack on the roof of their cage with the flat of your hand sends a clear message to them. Often they look dumbfounded as they don't know what they did wrong to deserve a wake up call. You need to be careful with that. A cyclist here did that and was nearly beaten to death. You don't know who's in the car or what they are carrying. http://westislandgazette.com/news/police/16340 Shoot first, ask questions later, claim self-defense. You got that right. As soon as those slugs got out of the car. |
#1396
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Bicyclist Fatalities in AZ 2009
On 12/14/2010 8:13 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Dec 14, 7:21 am, "Duane wrote: "Frank wrote: You're echoing Duane's worries about the road he showed in the street view - the one that looked like our metro park, or like the ones my club members and I seek out for rides in the country. Leave me out of your attempts to force everyone else to do what you want. Sorry, Duane, but you're not making sense. I'm not attempting to force anyone to do anything, because there's no way I could do that. Even if you choose to ride wrong-way down a freeway at night without lights, I can't force you not to. So attempts at humiliation and derision toward anyone disagreeing with you is just your typical style of prose? Purposely misinterpreting someone's statement so that you can argue against it successfully is just your style of debate? Thanks for pointing that out then. I thought it was something personal. Since it's not, I can just ignore you. This is a discussion group. I'm discussing what I think is correct cycling, and why - including data, citations, quotes and logic. You're always free to ignore all that and ride as you like. Thanks for lecturing to me what usenet is. Thanks for pointing out that what you say is only what you think. The logic part, I'm not too sure about. And thanks bunches for allowing me to ride as I like, although you have suggested that I stop riding at all, both bikes and cars since I'm such a sniveling coward. I'll try to keep that in mind. BTW, since you don't seem to understand sarcasm, that was sarcastic. poo-tee-weet |
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Bicyclist Fatalities in AZ 2009
On 12/13/2010 7:55 PM, Tºm Shermªn™ °_° wrote:
On 12/13/2010 7:40 AM, Duane Hébert wrote: On 12/11/2010 4:23 PM, Tºm Shermªn™ °_° wrote: On 12/11/2010 12:29 PM, Duane Hebert wrote: "T�m Sherm�nT " wrote in message ... On 12/11/2010 8:29 AM, Duane Hebert wrote: "T?m Sherm?n? " wrote in message ... On 12/10/2010 11:28 PM, DirtRoadie WHO? ANONYMOUSLY SNIPES: Hmm. Given your fears, I suppose Quebec must have special Ground Meat Crews to scrape away all the dead cyclists! - Frank Krygowski **** you. +1 DR Good to see the maturity and civility of the group being preserved. /sarcasm Calling me a coward is bad enough but making light of the dead cyclists here, some of which were friends and all of which were persons, was a bit much. And lying/libel is not a bit much? Are you talking to me? No, it is a different Frank-Basher™ who hides behind a pseudonym while lying and committing libel by falsifying quotations. However, for some reason, this immoral behavior draws much less ire than Frank Krygowski's above board argumentation. Sorry Tom but just because Frank hasn't used profanity doesn't make his personal attacks any less irksome. As to your reference to DR, I'm not exactly sure which of his comments you're referring to. Look in this thread, and you will find multiple occasions where "DirtRoadie" altered quotations - I pointed out several of them in responses. No one else objects to this behavior, except for Phil W. Lee. Don't think that he altered anything without saying so. But anyway, how is that different from telling me that I skulk in the gutter like a coward because I don't ride exactly in the middle of the lane and then 20 posts later telling someone else that they are just as afraid of cycling as I am because they also don't agree with him? |
#1398
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Bicyclist Fatalities in AZ 2009
On 12/13/2010 4:55 PM, DirtRoadie wrote:
On Dec 13, 2:36 pm, wrote: On Dec 13, 10:59 am, Frank wrote: If there is oncoming traffic, and the trucker decides there's enough room to squeeze by in your lane because you're at far right, you're in a dangerous situation. You'll have a truck literally brushing your left shoulder. You can't get more clearance by riding to the right; that's likely to make you fall, and in that situation it could kill you. When Frank writes a paragraph like this, I paraphrase it as "Danger!" Danger!" It can mean nothing else! Actually this is about the most hysterical sounding warning that anybody has written in the "Bicyclist Fatalities in AZ 2009" thread or threadlets. Thanks for the heads up. Once it became clear that Frank was saying "It depends," I saw no reason to read his post in detail. It is a shame he is so fearful. Maybe he should consider something less dangerous than cycling. Or driving a car. Or walking. Or falling out of bed. Or... |
#1399
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OT - Medical Costs
Per Ala:
"Hello....... You........ Have......... Reached..... The.... Slow..... Talkers..... Of....... America....... Press 1.... IF..... bob and ray fan! I was *wondering* if anybody would notice..... -) -- PeteCresswell |
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Bicyclist Fatalities in AZ 2009
On Dec 15, 7:43 am, Phil W Lee wrote:
[...] Then the most important thing you can do to improve your safety is to ride in a position which gives them the greatest chance of seeing you. [...] Are you familiar with the term "putting all your eggs in one basket?" -- The entire idea of "controlling a lane" is absurd. I've just demonstrated above how it works. It is absurd to consider oneself "controlling the lane" in front of approaching drivers who, for all you know, might just be 90 years old and almost completely blind, 16 years old and sexting, fiddling with the CD player or otherwise not looking at the road at all, etc. I'm NOT saying "skulk" next to the curb or on the sidewalk. I'm saying don't fool yourself. The control lies ultimately with the approaching driver, no matter how we ride in the lane, whether we like it or not. -- Five feet is a pathetic and inadequate buffer to right side hazards, if there are any. In the absence of same-direction traffic, you should be riding much further left. Why would the presence of same-direction traffic magically change a "pathetic and inadequate buffer" into something more reasonable? For the same reason that your "secondary position" becomes reasonable to you in the presence of same-direction traffic. -- The concept of Primary Position and Secondary Position is nonsensical and should be ridiculed, then abandoned. I'll continue to ride safely, and the terms are useful in describing the best way of achieving that. I'm sure you will cling to your belief system no matter what contrary facts are presented. -- Bicyclists should help drivers pass by moving toward the right, even on narrow streets. No, that should be EXCEPT on narrow streets. No, even on narrow streets. A street with two ultra narrow lanes functions for all practical purposes as a single wide lane when no oncoming traffic is present. Even a modest rightward movement by the cyclist will make the driver's pass much easier. It is not "all the same" (Frank) to the driver where the bicyclist is positioned. -- Bicyclists who fixate on close passes and "preventing dangerous passes" etc. have misplaced fears. Traffic management philosophies based on such misguided fears should be ridiculed and abandoned at first opportunity. You really are trying to make things more dangerous, aren't you? The best way to improve road safety in urban areas is to set speed limits at levels that are attainable for all classes of vehicle, including cyclists. Then you reduce the need for passing and most of the conflict. That would be great. Realistically, it's not going to happen. Glad we could clear all that up. Indeed, so why do you keep muddying it? Reality is a bit messier than you and Frank seem to realize. Don't blame the messenger. |
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