Bicyclist Fatalities in AZ 2009

On 12/17/2010 12:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Dec 17, 12:07 pm, Duane wrote:


That's like saying that if I tell you to be careful to not slip
on the ice, I'm implying that I'm afraid to walk and you should be
too.

Duane, if you tell everyone over and over how many times you've
slipped on the ice;

And how dangerous the ice is in your neighborhood;

And how many people are injured every year by slipping on ice;

And how many people you know who have been injured by slipping on
ice;

And how slipping on ice is much more of a problem than falling down
stairs;

And you go on about the horrors of ice slipping for weeks on end;

Then I think it's reasonable to infer that you have a fear of slipping
on ice.

BTW, I think you and James and DR and Dan really should take on as a
project. It would take time away from all your warnings about
bicycling!

Why, if just _one_ ice slippage can be prevented....! ;-)

Then I might not have a floating bone chip in my elbow.

Peter Cole wrote:
On 12/17/2010 12:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Dec 17, 12:07 pm, Duane wrote:


That's like saying that if I tell you to be careful to not slip
on the ice, I'm implying that I'm afraid to walk and you should be
too.

Duane, if you tell everyone over and over how many times you've
slipped on the ice;

And how dangerous the ice is in your neighborhood;

And how many people are injured every year by slipping on ice;

And how many people you know who have been injured by slipping on
ice;

And how slipping on ice is much more of a problem than falling down
stairs;

And you go on about the horrors of ice slipping for weeks on end;

Then I think it's reasonable to infer that you have a fear of slipping
on ice.

BTW, I think you and James and DR and Dan really should take on as a
project. It would take time away from all your warnings about
bicycling!

Why, if just _one_ ice slippage can be prevented....! ;-)

Then I might not have a floating bone chip in my elbow.

I used to as well, but a pin, not unlike a tire stud
actually, fixed that.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 12/18/2010 11:18 AM, AMuzi wrote:
Peter Cole wrote:
On 12/17/2010 12:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Dec 17, 12:07 pm, Duane wrote:


That's like saying that if I tell you to be careful to not slip
on the ice, I'm implying that I'm afraid to walk and you should be
too.

Duane, if you tell everyone over and over how many times you've
slipped on the ice;

And how dangerous the ice is in your neighborhood;

And how many people are injured every year by slipping on ice;

And how many people you know who have been injured by slipping on
ice;

And how slipping on ice is much more of a problem than falling down
stairs;

And you go on about the horrors of ice slipping for weeks on end;

Then I think it's reasonable to infer that you have a fear of slipping
on ice.

BTW, I think you and James and DR and Dan really should take on as a
project. It would take time away from all your warnings about
bicycling!

Why, if just _one_ ice slippage can be prevented....! ;-)

Then I might not have a floating bone chip in my elbow.

I used to as well, but a pin, not unlike a tire stud actually, fixed that.


I'm sure it would, but I'm not sure which is the greater nuisance.

Peter Cole wrote:
On 12/18/2010 11:18 AM, AMuzi wrote:
Peter Cole wrote:
On 12/17/2010 12:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Dec 17, 12:07 pm, Duane wrote:


That's like saying that if I tell you to be careful to not slip
on the ice, I'm implying that I'm afraid to walk and you should be
too.

Duane, if you tell everyone over and over how many times you've
slipped on the ice;

And how dangerous the ice is in your neighborhood;

And how many people are injured every year by slipping on ice;

And how many people you know who have been injured by slipping on
ice;

And how slipping on ice is much more of a problem than falling down
stairs;

And you go on about the horrors of ice slipping for weeks on end;

Then I think it's reasonable to infer that you have a fear of slipping
on ice.

BTW, I think you and James and DR and Dan really should take on as a
project. It would take time away from all your warnings about
bicycling!

Why, if just _one_ ice slippage can be prevented....! ;-)

Then I might not have a floating bone chip in my elbow.

I used to as well, but a pin, not unlike a tire stud actually, fixed
that.


I'm sure it would, but I'm not sure which is the greater nuisance.

I got a really awesome Frankensteiney scar too. And learned
"not to do that on my bike again", which was valuable as well.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 12/18/2010 12:07 PM, AMuzi wrote:
Peter Cole wrote:
On 12/18/2010 11:18 AM, AMuzi wrote:
Peter Cole wrote:
On 12/17/2010 12:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Dec 17, 12:07 pm, Duane wrote:


That's like saying that if I tell you to be careful to not slip
on the ice, I'm implying that I'm afraid to walk and you should be
too.

Duane, if you tell everyone over and over how many times you've
slipped on the ice;

And how dangerous the ice is in your neighborhood;

And how many people are injured every year by slipping on ice;

And how many people you know who have been injured by slipping on
ice;

And how slipping on ice is much more of a problem than falling down
stairs;

And you go on about the horrors of ice slipping for weeks on end;

Then I think it's reasonable to infer that you have a fear of slipping
on ice.

BTW, I think you and James and DR and Dan really should take on as a
project. It would take time away from all your warnings about
bicycling!

Why, if just _one_ ice slippage can be prevented....! ;-)

Then I might not have a floating bone chip in my elbow.

I used to as well, but a pin, not unlike a tire stud actually, fixed
that.


I'm sure it would, but I'm not sure which is the greater nuisance.

I got a really awesome Frankensteiney scar too. And learned "not to do
that on my bike again", which was valuable as well.


I've managed to get this far in life without a single surgery, even
minor. I decided that rather giving up on ice biking, I'd just get a
couple of sets of studs (on & off road). So far, so good. The elbow
doesn't bother me unless I put pressure on one exact spot (then it feels
like an ice pick), I can live with it, but even just the clothes I've
wrecked in ice falls would have paid for studded tires...

On Dec 18, 5:45*am, RobertH wrote:
On Dec 17, 10:37 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:

I think I'll use it to tell other cyclists to make even more sure that
they're visible, by being even further out into the lane.

"Even further out into the lane..." This is confusing. You mean, you
will now tell them to ride further left than where you used to tell
them to ride (center-of-the-lane) to be even more visible to
approaching drivers?

Or do you mean that now, instead of telling them to ride in the center
of the lane to avoid "dangerous passes," you will tell them to ride
there for the sake of visibility?

Wow. Seems to satisfy you, a cyclist has to ride not only in your
precisely approved position (six feet is OK in a ten foot lane, but
five feet is not?) but ONLY for your approved reasons!

If two people ride in the exact same position, but one rides their for
an unapproved reason, how will you know to complain? And what if he
rides there for _more_ than one reason? Sounds like a problem for
Talmudic scholars. Even my philosopher friends are more pragmatic!

Are you saying, now that you have seen the data showing that motorists
overlooking and plowing into bicyclists directly in front of them is
in fact a much bigger problem than you realized...

Seems to me it's a problem primarily on rural, high speed roads at
night, and probably only if the cyclist has no taillight. And even
the daytime incidents pointed out by others have been cyclists riding
far right, IIRC.

... and a much more
important problem for cyclists than "dangerous passes," you will
advise your students to get more directly in front of motorists, that
in your mind the answer to the problem of putting all your eggs in one
basket is to simply carry more eggs in the basket?

I don't know where you get the idea that all of anybody's eggs are in
one basket. As with your continuing diatribe against Vehicular
Cycling, your objections seem to be based on your thorough
misunderstanding and/or misrepresentation.

Anybody who gets run over from behind must not have been riding far
enough left, huh? Isn't that the way the belief system goes?

Nope. I never said that at all. More misrepresentation.

That's
consistent with what you've said (Remember? *You said five feet from
the right was too little?) ...

Five feet is waaay too little.

Oh. So is your mandate for seven feet in a ten foot lane? I was
thinking you'd approve six feet.

But, again, that has nothing whatsoever
to do with "controlling the lane" and nothing to do with same-
direction traffic.

Ah yes. Ride only in the Robert-approved position, but ONLY for the
Robert-approved reasons!

I use lane position to maximize space to potential hazards emerging
from the right, which are the most frequent hazards I deal with as an
urban cyclist. In the absence of right-side hazards, or in the
presence of faster traffic, or both, the equation changes drastically.
IOW, I move over. Way over in some cases.

And those cases are... what? Do you move into the door zone whenever
"faster traffic" (like, a 30 mph car) comes from behind? Do you ride
in the gutter of a ten-foot lane whenever an 8.5 foot truck comes
up?

Seriously, Robert, you've always been vocal about disagreement, but
very short on instruction. Your "it always depends" and "take
responsibility for your personal safety" and "ninja mentality" never
really tells any newbie what to DO. I gave an extremely cut-and-dried
situation with that wide truck in a narrow lane, but getting answers
was harder than pulling teeth.

What, for example, _do_ you do if there are right side hazards -
parked cars, a car rapidly approaching a stop sign to the right, AND a
truck coming up from behind? Do you keep your - what? - seven feet
from the right because of the right side hazards, or do you dive into
the door-zone shadow of the parked cars, out of sight of the right-
approaching motorist, because you think the trucker may not see you?

I am not afraid to invite a
close pass, after I sense the motorist is slowing or otherwise
altering their driving in my presence.

Fine. If you have no problem inviting close passes, explain that to
James, who has complained mightily about close passes he's gotten.
Tell him he should just suck it up and stop complaining.

OK, I'll do the same. *But I'll add that I'll never ride so far right
that it tempts an unsafe pass,...

There is no position which does not "tempt an unsafe pass."

Bull****. With a ten foot lane, oncoming traffic in the next lane, an
8.5 foot truck, and a lane-center cyclist, the trucker is NOT going to
pass unless he's homicidal. If homicidal motorist are really what you
fear, say so.

You really think two or three feet makes a big difference in how
visible you are to an approaching driver? That's pure fantasy.

Here's a film. Do you think it's all fantasy, all done with CGI?
http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/...e-positioning/
or http://tinyurl.com/29qgrj8

The whole idea of "controlling a lane" is absurd.

If you believe that, Robert, then you should leave the lane any time a
motor vehicle comes up behind you.

Bicyclists can not Be Visible, but they can be aware, and some other
things.

If you cannot be visible, Robert, then you should come to a stop any
time a motorist might possibly cross your path. That's every
intersection, and many driveways.

Vehicular Cycling ideology, obsessed with "controlling lanes" and
"dangerous passes," is bogus to the core. What we need is Defensive
Driving ideology applied to bicycling...

Oh right, as if there was nothing "Defensive" in Vehicular Cycling!
That particular straw man of yours has been in tatters for years.

And in all those years, your respect in the cycling community is still
minimal. Get over it. Forester's and Franklin's legacies will be
here 100 years from now. You'll be lucky to make an obscure footnote.

- Frank Krygowski

On Dec 18, 9:33 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:

snip

... ONLY for your approved reasons!

If two people ride in the exact same position, but one rides their for
an unapproved reason, how will you know to complain? And what if he
rides there for _more_ than one reason? Sounds like a problem for
Talmudic scholars. Even my philosopher friends are more pragmatic!


Frank, if I come back east can I ride with you on a tandem to the
philosopher's club? I'll ride on the back and promise I won't wear a
heljmet. Please?? :-)

snip


And in all those years, your respect in the cycling community is still
minimal. Get over it. Forester's and Franklin's legacies will be
here 100 years from now. You'll be lucky to make an obscure footnote.


Wheee! :-)

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&s...+hundred+years
+byrds&aq=f&aqi=g-v5&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

On Dec 18, 9:18*am, Peter Cole wrote:
On 12/18/2010 12:07 PM, AMuzi wrote:





Peter Cole wrote:
On 12/18/2010 11:18 AM, AMuzi wrote:
Peter Cole wrote:
On 12/17/2010 12:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Dec 17, 12:07 pm, Duane wrote:

That's like saying that if I tell you to be careful to not slip
on the ice, I'm implying that I'm afraid to walk and you should be
too.

Duane, if you tell everyone over and over how many times you've
slipped on the ice;

And how dangerous the ice is in your neighborhood;

And how many people are injured every year by slipping on ice;

And how many people you know who have been injured by slipping on
ice;

And how slipping on ice is much more of a problem than falling down
stairs;

And you go on about the horrors of ice slipping for weeks on end;

Then I think it's reasonable to infer that you have a fear of slipping
on ice.

BTW, I think you and James and DR and Dan really should take on as a
project. It would take time away from all your warnings about
bicycling!

Why, if just _one_ ice slippage can be prevented....! ;-)

Then I might not have a floating bone chip in my elbow.

I used to as well, but a pin, not unlike a tire stud actually, fixed
that.

I'm sure it would, but I'm not sure which is the greater nuisance.

I got a really awesome Frankensteiney scar too. And learned "not to do
that on my bike again", which was valuable as well.

I've managed to get this far in life without a single surgery, even
minor. I decided that rather giving up on ice biking, I'd just get a
couple of sets of studs (on & off road). So far, so good. The elbow
doesn't bother me unless I put pressure on one exact spot (then it feels
like an ice pick), I can live with it, but even just the clothes I've
wrecked in ice falls would have paid for studded tires...- Hide quoted text -

I got all the way to 50 years old, and then it was downhill from there
-- although my surgeries were from skiing and not bicycling, unless
you consider stitches surgery. Anyway, I was pondering all this lane
controlling stuff on my various commutes last week and realized that
the biggest risk for me on a bike has little to do with cars. Riding
at night in the rain with inches of standing water covering god-knows-
what, I realize that I can't see a f****** thing, and that I am riding
by braille. Now, throw in cars and that complicates things, but there
are many times when conditions alone are the real risk -- like unseen
ice, etc. I was riding to work probably 15 years ago, set in to a
corner and realized I was on ice and was going down, and in that
moment, I though "I'm too old for this." That was years before going
down on ice and driving my frameless glasses through my face and
spending the day at a plastic surgeon. Ice can be a killer. Broken
pavement in the dark can be a killer. I would be far happier
controlling the weather than controlling a few cars promendading at
12mph down a city street. I'm going to control other bikes!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bikeportland/2902451124/

On Dec 18, 10:12 am, Phil W Lee wrote:
RobertH considered Sat, 18 Dec 2010 02:45:12 -0800
(PST) the perfect time to write:

snip



Vehicular Cycling ideology, obsessed with "controlling lanes" and
"dangerous passes," is bogus to the core. What we need is Defensive
Driving ideology applied to bicycling, a much more realistic response
to the "looked-but-failed-to-see errors" which are the most important
problem facing adult bicyclists.

Not Egg McMuffins them?


I usually ride across a McDonalds drive-thru twice a day (hey - it's
really the best route Ive found through there). There's a tree there
that drops a lot of little leaves and stuff right where I have to turn
180 degrees. They sweep it often, but not all the time, and it still
leaves a bunch of slimy organic buildup on the concrete The little
branches it drops bits of there don't help, either. And of course the
cagers are all checking their McMuffins and what not as they pull away
from the window right there.



snip

In article ,
Phil W Lee wrote:

You mean you stay out in the lane until you are sure they've seen you,
then move over to allow them to pass as soon as it is safe?
It looks to me like a load of people in furious agreement here, but
using different descriptions for similar behaviour.

I've been thinking the same thing.

--
Michael Press