Older brifter (7 speed): How do I tell if for double or tripple?

I bought some used integrated brake/shifters for my 1987 Trek 560 and
can't get the front derailler to work properly. I've tried many things
and I am beginning to believe that, contrary to what the seller said,
these may be for a triple and not a double. The problem is the shifters
don't have any markings except the word Shimano molded into the hood.
Is there a way to tell if it is for a double or triple?

I don't even know the model of these. I put some pictures at
http://tinyurl.com/8vtpg .

The problem is that if I adjust it so that there is no rub in the small
ring and largest cog (lowest gear), it doesn't shift into the large
ring on the next click of the left derailler even if I hold it in.
Instead it puts it in an intermediate position where there is a good
deal of gnashing. It takes a slight second push to nudge it up. If,
instead, I set it up so it shifts well then it rubs on its lowest gear.

The shifter has three positions and I am assuming position one is for
the small ring, position two should go on the large ring and position
three is for trimming the front derailler in the highest few gears.

I went through Sheldon's site on making sure my front derailler was set
up correctly (it has worked without a problem for many years but I know
these shifters are more temperamental). The rings are straight, the
derailler is close to the large ring, and I've tried several rotational
angles and believe I have it straight.

Specs on the bike: It was a originally a 6 speed but is now a 7 speed
freewheel with 126 mm spacing in the rear. Original Shimano 105 front
derailler. New shifter cables and housings (shift housing, not brake
housing) and the housings were cut with a Dremel and ground flat, with
the liner opened after grinding with an awl. New ferules on both ends
of the shift cable. The cable housing terminates at cable stops where
the down-tube shifters were. The cables run under the bottom bracket in
some grooves in the metal itself.

Thanks for any thoughts. I was thinking about buying a new front
derailler (I am told that by moving directly outward, shifting is
better) but worry that the cage is narrower and this would actually
make my problem worse.

Joe LoBuglio

It shouldn't really matter, A click should still move the derailer the
appropriate distance, assuming you are using compatible components. Or
else they have changed the distances between chainwheels on double and
triple cranksets, which I wouldn't put past them. Just one more way to
create chaos, and make us spend more $$$, right?

But I digress...

To find out what you have: A triple brifter will have two "clicks", a
double only has one. Disconnect the cable from the front mech, or if you
can, simply slip one of the cable housing ends out of it's stop, so the
brifter can be worked without moving the derailer. Then just count the
clicks your front brifter has. BTW, the "partial" move at the upper end
is just to give the mech. a little more pull if case a normal click
doesn't lift the chain onto the largest ring.

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Joe LoBuglio wrote:
I bought some used integrated brake/shifters for my 1987 Trek 560 and
can't get the front derailler to work properly. I've tried many things
and I am beginning to believe that, contrary to what the seller said,
these may be for a triple and not a double. The problem is the shifters
don't have any markings except the word Shimano molded into the hood.
Is there a way to tell if it is for a double or triple?

I don't even know the model of these. I put some pictures at
http://tinyurl.com/8vtpg .

The problem is that if I adjust it so that there is no rub in the small
ring and largest cog (lowest gear), it doesn't shift into the large
ring on the next click of the left derailler even if I hold it in.
Instead it puts it in an intermediate position where there is a good
deal of gnashing. It takes a slight second push to nudge it up. If,
instead, I set it up so it shifts well then it rubs on its lowest gear.

The shifter has three positions and I am assuming position one is for
the small ring, position two should go on the large ring and position
three is for trimming the front derailler in the highest few gears.

I went through Sheldon's site on making sure my front derailler was set
up correctly (it has worked without a problem for many years but I know
these shifters are more temperamental). The rings are straight, the
derailler is close to the large ring, and I've tried several rotational
angles and believe I have it straight.

Specs on the bike: It was a originally a 6 speed but is now a 7 speed
freewheel with 126 mm spacing in the rear. Original Shimano 105 front
derailler. New shifter cables and housings (shift housing, not brake
housing) and the housings were cut with a Dremel and ground flat, with
the liner opened after grinding with an awl. New ferules on both ends
of the shift cable. The cable housing terminates at cable stops where
the down-tube shifters were. The cables run under the bottom bracket in
some grooves in the metal itself.

Thanks for any thoughts. I was thinking about buying a new front
derailler (I am told that by moving directly outward, shifting is
better) but worry that the cage is narrower and this would actually
make my problem worse.

Joe LoBuglio

It pretty much is supposed to work the way you describe. The
"intermediate" position is for trimming, for when you are using the
lower/upper half of cassette cogs (and using the small chain ring), to
accomodate the change in chain line.

I really doubt you need to buy a front derailler. Just make sure you
adjust it correctly, and make sure the cable is under some tension at
the "default attachment" position (these days that would be the "low"
position, no idea for your specific derailler.

Chris Z Writes:
To find out what you have: A triple brifter will have two "clicks", a
double only has one.

Thanks for your reply. It has three clicks. However I am told that even
double shifters have three clicks, one being for trim. I do not know,
however, which is the trim position.

Damyth Wrote:
It pretty much is supposed to work the way you describe.
The"intermediate" position is for trimming, for when you are
using the lower/upper half of cassette cogs (and using the
small chain ring), to accomodate the change in chain line.

Thanks. So I should should adjust it so that in the middle shifter
position the chain is on the small ring and there is no rub for the
harder gears (outmost cogs). Then when I shift down the things should
be find on my lowest gears. Shifting up twice should then put me on my
large ring. I suppose I expect some rubbing in all but the highest
three gears?

Joe LoBuglio wrote:
Chris Z Writes:
To find out what you have: A triple brifter will have two "clicks", a
double only has one.

Thanks for your reply. It has three clicks. However I am told that
even double shifters have three clicks, one being for trim. I do not
know, however, which is the trim position.

Higher-quality doubles shouldn't have three clicks, because that would mean
four positions.

Sora has always been one chainring, one position. Tiagra, lately, has had a
trim function. But since it's an old 7-speed, it may or may not have trim.
You should be able to get it to shift reliably whether or not it has trim,
and whether or not it's for a double or triple. The last click just won't
function if it's a triple because the front derailleur will lock it out.

Speeds = clicks +1 as rule for the rear.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Joe LoBuglio wrote:
Damyth Wrote:
It pretty much is supposed to work the way you describe.
The"intermediate" position is for trimming, for when you are
using the lower/upper half of cassette cogs (and using the
small chain ring), to accomodate the change in chain line.

Thanks. So I should should adjust it so that in the middle shifter
position the chain is on the small ring and there is no rub for the
harder gears (outmost cogs). Then when I shift down the things should
be find on my lowest gears. Shifting up twice should then put me on
my large ring. I suppose I expect some rubbing in all but the highest
three gears?

You got it.
--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Joe LoBuglio mistakenly wrote:
Thanks for your reply. It has three clicks. However I am told that even
double shifters have three clicks, one being for trim. I do not know,
however, which is the trim position.

I was wrong about what I said. It has two clicks but three positions.
Sorry for the confussion.

Joe

Joe LoBuglio wrote:
I bought some used integrated brake/shifters for my 1987 Trek 560 and
can't get the front derailler to work properly. ...

Thanks for any thoughts. I was thinking about buying a new front
derailler (I am told that by moving directly outward, shifting is
better) but worry that the cage is narrower and this would actually
make my problem worse.

Shimano STI-compatible road front derailleurs have a short
arm between the cable attachment and the pivot. The
result is that the derailleur moves further for a given amount
of cable pull. Pre-STI road and current mountain front ders
have a longer arm. This incompatibility causes much
gnashing of teeth, but probably exists because the amount
of cable a front STI road shifter can pull is limited.

Anyway, an STI road shifter with an old derailleur, like the
original one on your 560, won't move the derailleur enough.
You can try a quick fix by attaching the cable on the "wrong"
side of the clamp bolt, closer to the pivot. This increases
the derailleur movement. The "approved" solution is to
get a newer STI-compatible road der. They aren't very
expensive. However, front STI often still has a little chain
rub depending on your chainline, etc.

Joe LoBuglio Wrote:
I don't even know the model of these. I put some pictures at
http://tinyurl.com/8vtpg . --- Doesn't work

The link to the pictures above doesn't work. This one does:
http://tinyurl.com/9f3zw .

Sorry for the extra posts.

Joe