|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
Ads |
#72
|
|||
|
|||
torque wrench issues
On Mon, 1 May 2017 19:25:05 +0100, "Ian Field"
wrote: "John B Slocomb" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 30 Apr 2017 23:14:27 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 30 Apr 2017 22:10:43 +0100, "Ian Field" wrote: "AMuzi" wrote in message news On 4/30/2017 3:30 PM, Ian Field wrote: "AMuzi" wrote in message news On 4/30/2017 12:01 PM, Ian Field wrote: wrote in message ... On Sat, 29 Apr 2017 19:53:16 +0100, "Ian Field" wrote: wrote in message ... On Tue, 25 Apr 2017 20:16:22 +0100, "Benderthe.evilrobot" wrote: "John B Slocomb" wrote in message ... On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 22:17:14 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 25 Apr 2017 07:42:21 +0700, John B Slocomb wrote: On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 19:51:41 +0100, "Benderthe.evilrobot" wrote: wrote in message ... On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 22:06:05 +0100, "Benderthe.evilrobot" wrote: "Emanuel Berg" wrote in message ... I finally got the 1/2" torque wrench, 28-210 Nm, not even made in China, but in Taiwan! Eh... I guess it depends who you ask if that is China or not It has a locking screw, a torque setting handle, a scale (Nm as well as "FT-LB", some English unit I take it?) - it also as a locking lever on top just like an ordinary ratchet, so it can go both ways, clockwise and anti-clockwise. The torques only work in the clockwise direction. So if the locking (ratchet) lever is set the other way, it is just a ratchet, right? Well, in the manual it says: Note: Never use the torque wrench to undo nuts, bolts or other fasteners as this will damage the ratchet mechanism and the calibrated settings. So how does that add up? Is it only OK to use the anti-clockwise pull to insert things, which would require a left thread? (And it would be just a long shaft, with the torque not in effect.) As for me, I don't plan using it for anything but as a torque, because I have other, less expensive ratchets and spanners to do the everyday stuff. But of course, I'd like to know what it means. It also came with a certificate with data on the calibration and in the manual it says it should be recalibrated at least every 12 months. Calibration is irrelevant if you don't follow the rules to the letter. Most torque settings I've seen were for dry threads - any stray lubricant and you might even twist the end off at the correct torque. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com Torque specs vary considerably by application. Some are given as clean and dry, some are given as lubricated with oil - some are given cold, and others hot. That said, I personally have never run across a torque spec that was so "close to the edge" that torqing with "stray lubrication" would cause immediate failure of the bolt by twisting off the end. However, that said, most of my wrenching has not been on bicycles but on automobiles and agricultural and construction equipment which may be slightly more "overengineered" or "overbuilt" Bicycles tend to have less things you can twist the end off. Its common on motorcycles, but mainly pulling the threads out of alloy castings. Its pretty rare to strip an engine down so far that you can put the castings in degreasing plant - torquing the engine case bolts with oil left in the holes is a very good chance of stripping the threads. As for stripping engine bolts, the Honda factory used to install fasteners so tight that a normal person couldn't get them out without an"impact driver". A tool that I never even saw before the Japanese invasion. The lock washers were very effective where used, and the Phipips style bolts were incapable of delivering enough torque to breat them loose without camming out - the Hammer Impact driver solved that problem I believe I've read that the "Phillips" headed screws in a Japanese motorcycle are not actually "Phillips" but some Japanese standard that didn't quite match the screwdrivers we had in the U.S. Which probably didn't help either :-) That's the *whole* cause - just grind a tiny bit off the point of the screwdriver bit and it fits just right. The bits on my Impact driver fit perfectly without grinding. Note I said Philips "style" (I know, I mis-spelled it) bolts. Some of the early Jap stuff didn't use Cadmium plated bolts either - W10 imploded and I had to start over with a replacement news account. So back to old name. The japs were the worst of the lot for cadmium plated fasteners. The very toxic cadmium rubs off on your hands and is cumulative in the body - it causes such acute osteoporosis; you can end up fracturing ribs just by coughing. In the UK - nickel plated fasteners became fashionable about the 80s. They didn't do much about cadmium plated chassis in electronic equipment until RoHS. AFAIK: cadmium batteries are exempt from RoHS - but they've more or less vanished from the shops anyway. Cadmium is very nasty - wash your hands after handling anything plated with it! from Cadmium, A Health Hazard Surface Treatment C. Rehm ESG Einsteinstr. 174 D-81675 Munich, Germany An object containing cadmium is not especially injurious to health on its own. No risk is involved simply by touching it. A potential hazard occurs, however, when such objects are processed and high temperatures are generated. Cadmium plating rubs off on your hands whenever you handle cadmium plated parts and assemblies. Many years ago they even used it on electronic component leads to prevent oxidation - they used more aggressive fluxes in those days. Welding cad plated sheet steel is particularly dangerous - the cadmium is vapourised and becomes airborne. Usually the osteoporosis takes decades to start crippling the sufferer - but I've heard of a repair technician dropping dead after a couple of years from fumes using low melting point cadmium based solder. The specific mode of death wasn't announced. The Japanese know all about it, they discharged industrial effluent containing cadmium into heavily fished costal waters. They even have a name for the disease - itai itai byo. apparently its the noise sufferers make in their death throes. As I mentioned previously - bones become so weak and brittle, you can fracture ribs just by coughing. Well then avoid it as you wish. Many of us recognize the difference between metals and reactive metallic organic compounds. Zinc rich tablets are popular for symptoms of herpes simplex and yet no one welds galvanize steel a second time. Zinc can't be that toxic - its a usual ingredient of baby powder. Never heard of any warnings against welding zinc passivated steel - only know of cadmium plating being very dangerous. Fumes of burning zinc make your knees go soft as you vomit on the way down. Don't try this at home. When I was a kid, I liked throwing zinc batteries on the bonfire to watch them explode - no such effect was ever observed. Even one single exhausted battery would have more zinc than a pretty big sheet of zinc plated steel - and would dwarf the amount of zinc vapourised by a weld run. Whenever you are working with galvanized steel it is important that you take the necessary steps when prepping the metal before welding. If you have properly prepped your metal before welding, you will help reduce your exposure to zinc oxide fumes. The usually suggested preparation for welding or brazing galvanized materials is to grind all the galvanizing off! Genius!!! - you've invented a way to breathe it as dust instead of fumes. Darwin must be biding his time with you............................... You seem obsessed with this subject. But the facts are that the body doesn't absorb all substances in any form. You can, for example, actually drink metallic mercury with no damage as the body doesn't absorb it in it's metallic form but as a vapor or in combination with other chemicals it can prove fatal. Your body requires iron in order to work correctly but an excess of iron is termed "hemochromatosis" and can result in life-threatening conditions, such as liver disease, heart problems and diabetes. Even water can be deadly. A scarcity, called "dehydration", can cause death and equally an excess, called "Water intoxication", can also cause death. This is not uncommon in those with low body mass such as children under one year old to absorb too much water, especially if the child is under nine months old. |
#73
|
|||
|
|||
torque wrench issues
On 5/1/2017 2:49 PM, Ian Field wrote:
wrote: On Sun, 30 Apr 2017 21:30:36 +0100, "Ian Field" wrote: Never heard of any warnings against welding zinc passivated steel - only know of cadmium plating being very dangerous. You will only weld or braze galvanized steel in a poorly ventilated space ONCE unless you are REALLY stupid. I have never become aware of the dire consequences of welding zinc plated that are being spouted here. "galvanised" can be plated with *ANY* metal that has a higher galvanic affinity than the host metal. Including cadmium and various other toxic heavy metals. Cadmium poisoning is cumulative and has various routes into the body - its a long slow painful journey to a Darwin award. For a few years I worked assembling electronic equipment on cadmium plated chassis - I've seen with my own eyes the extent to which the plating rubs off on your hands. But if you're too stupid to take it from someone who's been there - Darwin awaits you with outstretched arms. Can you not see your post's internal inconsistency? You have multiple people who have given citations as well as related experiences about welding zinc galvanized steel, but you discount them saying "I have never become aware [of that problem]." Yet you insult those who YOU think are "too stupid to take it from someone who's been there..." Sheesh. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#74
|
|||
|
|||
torque wrench issues
On Mon, 1 May 2017 22:00:31 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 5/1/2017 2:49 PM, Ian Field wrote: wrote: On Sun, 30 Apr 2017 21:30:36 +0100, "Ian Field" wrote: Never heard of any warnings against welding zinc passivated steel - only know of cadmium plating being very dangerous. You will only weld or braze galvanized steel in a poorly ventilated space ONCE unless you are REALLY stupid. I have never become aware of the dire consequences of welding zinc plated that are being spouted here. "galvanised" can be plated with *ANY* metal that has a higher galvanic affinity than the host metal. Including cadmium and various other toxic heavy metals. Cadmium poisoning is cumulative and has various routes into the body - its a long slow painful journey to a Darwin award. For a few years I worked assembling electronic equipment on cadmium plated chassis - I've seen with my own eyes the extent to which the plating rubs off on your hands. But if you're too stupid to take it from someone who's been there - Darwin awaits you with outstretched arms. Can you not see your post's internal inconsistency? You have multiple people who have given citations as well as related experiences about welding zinc galvanized steel, but you discount them saying "I have never become aware [of that problem]." Yet you insult those who YOU think are "too stupid to take it from someone who's been there..." Sheesh. Must be the painted cow's twin brother - - - |
#75
|
|||
|
|||
torque wrench issues
On Tue, 02 May 2017 08:31:47 +0700, John B Slocomb
wrote: On Mon, 1 May 2017 21:14:22 +0100, "Ian Field" wrote: wrote in message . .. On Mon, 1 May 2017 07:06:39 -0700 (PDT), wrote: Whenever you are working with galvanized steel it is important that you take the necessary steps when prepping the metal before welding. If you have properly prepped your metal before welding, you will help reduce your exposure to zinc oxide fumes. The usually suggested preparation for welding or brazing galvanized materials is to grind all the galvanizing off! Welding a joint with zinc still on the area would weaken the weld but who am I to suggest that you're right? Smokers have very high amounts of cadmium in their bodies. If you've smoked for 50 years you probably have the maximum allowable amount of cadmium in your body. You can get cadmium in your body by touching it. The amount into your plasma is as high as 0.07%. The half-life of cadmium in the body is about 10 years if memory serves. But both zinc and cadmium would normally only accumulate to dangerous levels at a rate that wouldn't harm you until long after you're dead unless you're a smoker. Or a careless welder. Brazing spelter containing cadmium can make you sicker than a dog in short order if you are breathing the fumes - as can the fumes from welding galvanized steel. It only takes a few minutes to get you wretching and puking and aching to the point you almost wish you could die. "galvanised" is galvanic protection - which can include any of several toxic heavy metals. While yes, galvanizing is a galvanic protection if you go into a store and ask for "galvanized iron" you get zinc coated steel. As an addendum. I am not sure that galvanizing is necessarily a galvanic protection. I an thinking of the corrugated "galvanized iron" roofs I see on wooden buildings here. Unless, of course, there is some sort of galvanic action between wooden rafters and steel sheeting :-) Some people here seem to think it can only mean zinc. No, "galvanized", in common U.S. usage, does mean zinc coated. The toxic dose of zinc is really quite large. |
#76
|
|||
|
|||
torque wrench issues
|
#77
|
|||
|
|||
torque wrench issues
On Mon, 1 May 2017 19:51:52 +0100, "Ian Field"
wrote: "John B Slocomb" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 30 Apr 2017 18:01:20 +0100, "Ian Field" wrote: wrote in message ... On Sat, 29 Apr 2017 19:53:16 +0100, "Ian Field" wrote: wrote in message om... On Tue, 25 Apr 2017 20:16:22 +0100, "Benderthe.evilrobot" wrote: "John B Slocomb" wrote in message news:schtfc5i6qshna502vhg4pv5f918haa426@4ax .com... On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 22:17:14 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 25 Apr 2017 07:42:21 +0700, John B Slocomb wrote: On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 19:51:41 +0100, "Benderthe.evilrobot" wrote: wrote in message news:vmfqfc17u3012cn5jrkkk4r335ol6r5s8a @4ax.com... On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 22:06:05 +0100, "Benderthe.evilrobot" wrote: "Emanuel Berg" wrote in message ... I finally got the 1/2" torque wrench, 28-210 Nm, not even made in China, but in Taiwan! Eh... I guess it depends who you ask if that is China or not It has a locking screw, a torque setting handle, a scale (Nm as well as "FT-LB", some English unit I take it?) - it also as a locking lever on top just like an ordinary ratchet, so it can go both ways, clockwise and anti-clockwise. The torques only work in the clockwise direction. So if the locking (ratchet) lever is set the other way, it is just a ratchet, right? Well, in the manual it says: Note: Never use the torque wrench to undo nuts, bolts or other fasteners as this will damage the ratchet mechanism and the calibrated settings. So how does that add up? Is it only OK to use the anti-clockwise pull to insert things, which would require a left thread? (And it would be just a long shaft, with the torque not in effect.) As for me, I don't plan using it for anything but as a torque, because I have other, less expensive ratchets and spanners to do the everyday stuff. But of course, I'd like to know what it means. It also came with a certificate with data on the calibration and in the manual it says it should be recalibrated at least every 12 months. Calibration is irrelevant if you don't follow the rules to the letter. Most torque settings I've seen were for dry threads - any stray lubricant and you might even twist the end off at the correct torque. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com Torque specs vary considerably by application. Some are given as clean and dry, some are given as lubricated with oil - some are given cold, and others hot. That said, I personally have never run across a torque spec that was so "close to the edge" that torqing with "stray lubrication" would cause immediate failure of the bolt by twisting off the end. However, that said, most of my wrenching has not been on bicycles but on automobiles and agricultural and construction equipment which may be slightly more "overengineered" or "overbuilt" Bicycles tend to have less things you can twist the end off. Its common on motorcycles, but mainly pulling the threads out of alloy castings. Its pretty rare to strip an engine down so far that you can put the castings in degreasing plant - torquing the engine case bolts with oil left in the holes is a very good chance of stripping the threads. As for stripping engine bolts, the Honda factory used to install fasteners so tight that a normal person couldn't get them out without an"impact driver". A tool that I never even saw before the Japanese invasion. The lock washers were very effective where used, and the Phipips style bolts were incapable of delivering enough torque to breat them loose without camming out - the Hammer Impact driver solved that problem I believe I've read that the "Phillips" headed screws in a Japanese motorcycle are not actually "Phillips" but some Japanese standard that didn't quite match the screwdrivers we had in the U.S. Which probably didn't help either :-) That's the *whole* cause - just grind a tiny bit off the point of the screwdriver bit and it fits just right. The bits on my Impact driver fit perfectly without grinding. Note I said Philips "style" (I know, I mis-spelled it) bolts. Some of the early Jap stuff didn't use Cadmium plated bolts either - W10 imploded and I had to start over with a replacement news account. So back to old name. The japs were the worst of the lot for cadmium plated fasteners. The very toxic cadmium rubs off on your hands and is cumulative in the body - it causes such acute osteoporosis; you can end up fracturing ribs just by coughing. In the UK - nickel plated fasteners became fashionable about the 80s. They didn't do much about cadmium plated chassis in electronic equipment until RoHS. AFAIK: cadmium batteries are exempt from RoHS - but they've more or less vanished from the shops anyway. Cadmium is very nasty - wash your hands after handling anything plated with it! from Cadmium, A Health Hazard Surface Treatment C. Rehm ESG Einsteinstr. 174 D-81675 Munich, Germany An object containing cadmium is not especially injurious to health on its own. No risk is involved simply by touching it. A potential hazard occurs, however, when such objects are processed and high temperatures are generated. Cadmium plating rubs off on your hands whenever you handle cadmium plated parts and assemblies. Many years ago they even used it on electronic component leads to prevent oxidation - they used more aggressive fluxes in those days. Welding cad plated sheet steel is particularly dangerous - the cadmium is vapourised and becomes airborne. Usually the osteoporosis takes decades to start crippling the sufferer - but I've heard of a repair technician dropping dead after a couple of years from fumes using low melting point cadmium based solder. The specific mode of death wasn't announced. The Japanese know all about it, they discharged industrial effluent containing cadmium into heavily fished costal waters. They even have a name for the disease - itai itai byo. apparently its the noise sufferers make in their death throes. As I mentioned previously - bones become so weak and brittle, you can fracture ribs just by coughing. I hate to disillusion you but the Japanese word "itai" can be translated into English as "ouch" and is commonly used in everyday conversation. Secondly, the cadmium poisoning you are referring to was specific to mining in Toyama Prefecture. Not to industry per si. Sophistry doesn't magically make you right. You mean that part about "apparently its the noise sufferers make in their death throes"? As I explained the Japanese word "itai" is commonly used as English speakers might use "ouch". Do you think those poor Japanese dying in agony are saying "ouch - ouch". My authority for this? The nearly 10 years I spent in Japan as a member of the Air Force, and, I might add, my first wife, who was a Japanese citizen. |
#78
|
|||
|
|||
torque wrench issues
On Mon, 1 May 2017 19:49:36 +0100, "Ian Field"
wrote: a great deal deleted know of cadmium plating being very dangerous. You will only weld or braze galvanized steel in a poorly ventilated space ONCE unless you are REALLY stupid. I have never become aware of the dire consequences of welding zinc plated that are being spouted here. "galvanised" can be plated with *ANY* metal that has a higher galvanic affinity than the host metal. Including cadmium and various other toxic heavy metals. I can only assume that you are not from a country where English is the common language as the definition of "galvanized" in the U.S. (and likely in other English speaking countries) is, and I quote, "Covered with Zinc". Cadmium poisoning is cumulative and has various routes into the body - its a long slow painful journey to a Darwin award. Essentially all poisoning is cumulative as even in the case of very virulent poisons like cyanide - used in case hardening steel - a very tiny amount will not kill you. For a few years I worked assembling electronic equipment on cadmium plated chassis - I've seen with my own eyes the extent to which the plating rubs off on your hands. But if you're too stupid to take it from someone who's been there - Darwin awaits you with outstretched arms. Well, I've been there. I worked with cadmium plated fasteners for 20 years in the Air Force and when I retired I worked another 20 years with heavy equipment where most of the fasteners are also cad plated. Now tell us about your experiences. |
#79
|
|||
|
|||
torque wrench issues
On 5/2/2017 4:31 AM, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 02 May 2017 08:31:47 +0700, John B Slocomb wrote: On Mon, 1 May 2017 21:14:22 +0100, "Ian Field" wrote: wrote in message ... On Mon, 1 May 2017 07:06:39 -0700 (PDT), wrote: Whenever you are working with galvanized steel it is important that you take the necessary steps when prepping the metal before welding. If you have properly prepped your metal before welding, you will help reduce your exposure to zinc oxide fumes. The usually suggested preparation for welding or brazing galvanized materials is to grind all the galvanizing off! Welding a joint with zinc still on the area would weaken the weld but who am I to suggest that you're right? Smokers have very high amounts of cadmium in their bodies. If you've smoked for 50 years you probably have the maximum allowable amount of cadmium in your body. You can get cadmium in your body by touching it. The amount into your plasma is as high as 0.07%. The half-life of cadmium in the body is about 10 years if memory serves. But both zinc and cadmium would normally only accumulate to dangerous levels at a rate that wouldn't harm you until long after you're dead unless you're a smoker. Or a careless welder. Brazing spelter containing cadmium can make you sicker than a dog in short order if you are breathing the fumes - as can the fumes from welding galvanized steel. It only takes a few minutes to get you wretching and puking and aching to the point you almost wish you could die. "galvanised" is galvanic protection - which can include any of several toxic heavy metals. While yes, galvanizing is a galvanic protection if you go into a store and ask for "galvanized iron" you get zinc coated steel. As an addendum. I am not sure that galvanizing is necessarily a galvanic protection. I an thinking of the corrugated "galvanized iron" roofs I see on wooden buildings here. Unless, of course, there is some sort of galvanic action between wooden rafters and steel sheeting :-) Some people here seem to think it can only mean zinc. No, "galvanized", in common U.S. usage, does mean zinc coated. The toxic dose of zinc is really quite large. Galvanized steel has a sacrificial zinc layer with more potential than the steel. The zinc will eventually be consumed, at which point the steel starts to rust. The term doesn't indicate its use but rather the electric process to apply the zinc from solution to a metallic layer on the steel. Most modern zinc coated steel products are hot dip, not actually electroplated. Fasteners are commonly tumble-plated because hot dip thickness interferes with class of thread fit. Many fasteners are zinc chromate now with a blue or yellow tint depending on post-plating heat treatment. The toxic dose of zinc is really quite large. Actually a _fatal_ dose is quite large. A toxic dose can be small depending on absorption rate, as with breathing burning zinc fumes. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#80
|
|||
|
|||
torque wrench issues
"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message ... On Monday, May 1, 2017 at 4:14:24 PM UTC-4, Ian Field wrote: "galvanised" is galvanic protection - which can include any of several toxic heavy metals. Some people here seem to think it can only mean zinc. In the U.S. "galvanize" means to coat steel or iron with zinc. (Alternate meaning: to spur into action.) It may be that British usage is different, I suppose. But I don't find evidence of that. The British usage means to plate with galvanic protection. |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
torque wrench issues | Andrew Chaplin | Techniques | 46 | April 27th 17 02:55 PM |
TORQUE WRENCH ? | kolldata | Techniques | 3 | June 22nd 11 04:04 AM |
Torque Wrench Use | Graham Sharman | Techniques | 11 | July 3rd 07 11:04 PM |